freeform

Qi emission is more ‘objective’... clouds move whether you will them or not - but you don’t usually receive electric shocks that travel through your body when people touch your hand... Animals and babies aren’t taken in by mental biases either - but they react just the same to Qi emission. Qi emission is pretty ‘common’ once you’re accepted into the right ‘inner door’ groups. But Qi emission can be faked - so you need to see something like that in person, for yourself. Some examples of the effects of Nei Qi emission: Example of Yang Qi emission: More Yang Qi emission: Its important to point out that these skills don’t mean these masters necessarily have a high level of spiritual attainment (which is what’s a lot more interesting for me) - or ethical development. Also for me personally - seeing videos like this is not good enough evidence. [edit] Though I’m as certain as I can be that these videos show genuine Qi emission - because I’ve either met these teachers or their senior students who can do the same. But once you experience it over and over from many different people - many of whom have no vested interest... or maybe one day you even experience being able to do the same yourself... then that’s as good evidence as you’re gonna get. These things are real. They seem special - but once you understand the mechanics of it, the mysticism is dispelled - and it doesn’t seem all that supernatural at all. Just a combination of many years of dedicated practice and sincere application of genuine methods.

Fair enough And I’m saying you won’t find that evidence on a forum. Search for an albino giraffe in a lake, then a desert, then the alpine wilderness and soon enough you’ll be convinced that it couldn’t possibly exist.

we can agree on that. In fact it doesn’t take rigorous scientific study - just as it doesn’t take rigorous scientific study to prove that there’s a screen in front of your face. We can also agree with that too. But the truth is that the majority of people (at least the ones I know) who develop something ‘supernatural’ are in pursuit of spiritual development not the supernatural - what’s being called the supernatural is just a byproduct of that development. I would avoid anyone who pursues the supernatural for its own sake - because firstly it’s of no interest to me and secondly that scene is filled with egotism and delusion - as you say.

I completely agree with you. In fact I personally think there’s a real lack of skepticism and a whole load of delusion in the spiritual scene. What I’m trying to communicate to you however is that you’re setting up a strawman argument. And therefor selling yourself short. “No one here has proved to me that there’s anything supernatural - there for the supernatural doesn’t exist.” This is precisely the sort of argument a flat earther would use. True skepticism has to be very sharp, discerning and incisive. You can’t just question things you prefer. You must question everything - including your own assumptions and limitations. The true skeptical statement that you could make is: “I’ve seen no undeniable evidence of the supernatural” (and include your definition of the woolly term of ‘supernatural’) And that would be true. But you probably haven’t seen undeniable evidence of, say, the existence of an albino giraffe... but it doesn’t mean such a thing doesn’t exist - it only means your narrow searching hasn’t turned up any undeniable evidence. If you’re seeking something rare and extraordinary - you will have to go to extraordinary means to find it. Just as the scientists searching out the Higgs Boson had to build the Large Hadron Collider in search of it... It took 20 years, 10,000 scientists and billions of $$ to do. They didn’t go on a physics forum and demand proof as evidence... The sad truth is that anyone who is actively promoting that they can do supernatural things are usually lying. Or at least have questionable agendas. Not always - but often. The ones who can actually do supernatural things are usually trying to stay out of the limelight because they’re aware of all the issues surrounding something like that... and they’re usually way beyond the lure of fame - and can clearly see the problems inherent in it instead. So unless you’re trying to simply confirm your strawman - and you’re really sincerely looking to find some proof of the supernatural, you’re going to have to work for it... and to be honest not even work that hard for it either. Not Hadron Collider hard anyway

You're reading the ‘butthurtness’ into my comment I was just stating a fact that might come across a little blunt - (as facts that contradict our assumptions tend to do.) But when I mentioned my due respect - I actually meant it.

There are plenty of people on flat earth forums ‘proving’ that the earth is flat right this moment.

On a forum?

I think if you’re expecting objective evidence on an online discussion forum - you’re setting yourself up for major disappointment. And that’s objective proof of anything whether natural or supernatural... No one could even prove that their hair is black - let alone the existence of Qi

In all honesty (and with all due respect) - what you prefer is irrelevant. No one owes you anything. No one is trying to prove anything to you. (and if you find that they are - then I'd suggest caution) That's spot on. And usually this is the only reason teachers will demonstrate something 'supernatural'. But as I'm sure you understand - the teachers that can do this are very few... the people that want to learn how to do it, or at least experience it are probably a considerable percentage of the earth's population. And most of these teachers have no interest in teaching experience junkies. Sunk cost fallacy is applicable to the value you place on something - not the direct experience of something. If there's a cat in front of you it doesn't matter whether you spent millions to see this cat - or it just wondered over and sat in front of you. Although you'd likely place a lot more value on it if you spent so much to see this cat. Something like Qi - when demonstrated by someone who actually has Qi is as obvious and objective as a cat in front of you... But - you may well attach greater value to someone with Qi than they deserve. There are plenty of questionable teachers with Qi skills.

Our emotional attachment makes it seem different. Do your part - whilst realising that it's all irrelevant and unimportant anyway. When you hear a tune that touches you - and you can't help but have a little dance - you don't attach, you don't cling, you don't think about it and try to understand it after the fact... You have your boogie and then you get on with other things. Placing undue importance and participating in the emotional drama of politics is (in my opinion) is very much counter 'spiritual'... and is much more 'selfish'... In the sense that your spiritual aspect is absent of 'self'... whereas strong political drama is very much a 'self-creating' act. Cast your vote and let it go. Speak your opinion and let it go. Don't get involved in the drama or it will pull you into the world of drama and away from your spiritual goals.

Oh well if you're that motivated, it couldn't be easier. Book an appointment with Robert Peng and get zapped with yang qi - it's as objective a proof you're ever likely to experience yourself. Or go for a few months to Singapore or Kuala Lumpur or even Chiang Mai and hang out in the parks in the early hours and just meet people - I promise you if you're sincere you'll find someone who'll happily show you what appears to be supernatural...

Think of it this way. Say you dedicate yourself to the spiritual arts - spend all your time, all your resources on this pursuit... You live and breathe this art... you give up much of your life to it, make huge sacrifices for it - and it so happens that a byproduct of this pursuit is considered 'supernatural' by some. Why would you suddenly put all that work, all that effort on hold and subject yourself to a lifetime of scrutiny notoriety? Would any of you, right now, be willing to drop your life, leave your family, quit your job and in effect voluntarily put yourself through a public judicial process about something people want to vehemently discredit you for? These things that seem supernatural are not even the point of it all anyway - yet by the very act of trying to prove its existence, you're diverting attention away from the actual goal of your pursuit to something completely irrelevant. So not only would you be putting your work on hold, putting yourself under public scrutiny, losing your privacy, shouldering at least some of the cost of this endeavour - but you'd also be tarnishing, manipulating and discrediting the spiritual art that is so precious to you. And then, even if they prove something to any reasonable level - there will always be a way to disprove it in some way. It's all downside with no upside... That's why you will (almost) never get highly achieved people that will willingly put themselves under public scientific scrutiny. I think it's good to be skeptical. In fact I believe the vast majority of what is shown as being supernatural is in fact fake, or just stupidity or bias. But understand that you will never find any hard proof for something so multifaceted as Qi for instance - in the same way - that despite constant scientific study we still don't know what foods are healthy. Or in the way that we're not even sure what light is - whether it's waves or particles. But to experience Qi (which is invariably subjective and anecdotal) is a whole different matter. Just like to experience light is so patently obvious but nevertheless completely subjective. I've met many people that can transmit Qi - and it's a very objective, unsubtle experience - so much so that 12 completely impartial or even hostile observers would experience it in the same way (as a strong electric shock). But there is no way to make that experience objective... even with impartial observers, even with video evidence, even with adjudicators checking for foul play - someone will be able to find a way to discredit it.

Just commenting on the first image of this video. The people pictured - protesting in the middle of time square - are very much the top 5% of the world... not the 95%... not even close. People have a very narrow perspective... usually one that puts them at the centre of everything, and makes everything distant from their reality very vague and insignificant. Is there inequality? Of course there is - that is the nature of things. Inequality rises in times of prosperity and redistributes more equally in times of great calamity... it's a pattern that has played out throughout history. But it's important to note that most people in the west - who feel that they're at the disadvantaged end of the inequality spectrum have no idea of the hardships they'd face in a true, global, equally-redistributed world... For a start, they'd be a lot more concerned about feeding their donkey than about filming a protest on their fancy new smartphone.

Historically times of the greatest level of equality have always followed massive bloodshed. Great equality after each of the world wars... amazing levels of equality after the French Revolution. Cultural Revolution too... Want a proven method to get more equality? Then be prepared to commit mass murder Things work in cycles. “Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. And, weak men create hard times.” The Daoism I know, seeks to elevate an individual past this repeating cycle (and all such cycles) - not try to micromanage or try to manipulate the cycle in some way.

Yeah it’s caused by deficiency in the wood element (liver and gallbladder). Issues with sleep and energy (vitality to do stuff) is also liver (and kidney) related. It’s all interconnected

Yeah in Neigong they tend to form one part of a whole - they definitely work together and they can’t work apart. I really like the flower visual because it really does feel like that sort of unfurling into aliveness... like releasing anything that keeps vitality and aliveness from filling and expanding. Whereas relaxing feels like reducing vitality and aliveness until you melt into a relaxed puddle. Without Ting however, it’s not possible to Song... Its like you can’t let go what you can’t find... and you’ll find more to let go as you release layer by layer. That’s why Ting and Song sort of leapfrog each other. For muscles to fall off the bone, we need both Ting and Sung. And it’s often quite uncomfortable when you get it right. I remember at first I would feel this sort of tearing and ripping on the inside.

Slightly different things... Song is a key part of sinking - but it's more than sinking (you can Song upwards too for example)... It's more like release - but it's a release into expansion/ gentle stretch not a release into floppy flaccidity... The flower above is a perfect visual representation of what song feels like to me... Whereas relaxation is more like: I find that most people confuse relaxing with song...

Get back to the body. Build the foundation. In Daoism (and in other yogic paths as far as I’m aware) you generally don’t begin with meditative practice. You begin with working on your physical body... then your Qi... then your emotional/thinking mind - and only then do you practice meditation. Working this way creates a deep reserve of inner strength, resilience, stability and a sense of well-being along with a clear, calm and powerful energy body. This means that by the time you go and sit on the cushion, your mind is naturally still and at ease - anchored in the body and centred. What you’ve experienced is a form of ‘meditation sickness’. My teacher used to treat a lot of meditators - particularly Chan Buddhist practitioners, and what you describe sounds quite familiar to me. My teacher used all sorts of approaches to treat people including acupuncture, Qi emission and other more esoteric methods. But the biggest thing he’d insist on is a change in daily habits. The first thing he would recommend is stopping any form of meditation, introspection or energetic practice. He would recommend for the patient to engage outwardly with the world in whatever way possible - working with people, volunteering at the local temple - getting hands dirty and the awareness drawn outside of oneself for as much of the day as possible. The fundamental things like good sleep (not too much or too little) and diet would be important. And the final part was to get the patient engaging in some physical training - stretching, body weight exercise, running and so on. The idea was to build up the intensity of the exercise routine little by little. It usually takes at least a few months of consistent daily effort to begin to see a change... then it can take up to a few years to return to baseline.

I'm embarrassed to admit this, but I've spent some time antagonising crabs at the beach... I noticed that their running away behaviour is based on a set of rules that take into account my (the antagonist's) distance from them and the distance of the water from them. After a while I could see the exact 'animal algorithm' at work. I could eventually discern exactly the distance that triggered its response and what the response would be depending on my angle of approach... I knew exactly when it'll react, which direction it'll run and where it would stop. Maybe one way of saying it is if you follow the emotions back to their source, then you'll find the deepest aspects of who you are. Like miners that hit a vein of cobalt know that if they follow that vein they're likely to hit gold at some point. The view of my particular tradition is that as the emotions become more free (through qigong/neigong), we progressively lose our 'autonomousness' - emotions stop being the automatic reaction that drives our behaviour. We stop being the crab that is triggered into an automatic response, and as a result we gain a little more room for our spirit to play in... some more freedom of experience and expression... The more subtle and nuanced emotional states that are often depicted in Eastern art (as @Taomeow pointed out) start to replace the more raw, reactive emotions. It's something my friends and family noticed in me. That I simply stopped giving a f**k. The old buttons that they went for just didn't produce the same result. I stopped feeling triggered or offended. I stopped feeling automatically embarrassed, excited or angry at the stuff that used to trigger that sort of reaction. Follow that vein further towards gold, and we come to the 'higher mind' that functions from the Virtues instead... It appears less like a stimulus-response algorithm because instead of sampling the tiny dataset of our acquired self, we sample a far broader dataset that includes previously unavailable responses - like true, unconditional compassion, true integrity ('true' as in it's not simply protecting some sort of self-image)... deep wisdom etc. It's said that the virtues don't move and shift and respond like the emotions do - they're more like stable, constant states that shine through and continually inform our action. It's not that emotions are got rid of or overcome, but that we've cleared the biases, delusions and obstructions to reveal their true nature - and their true nature is a pure, benevolent expression of our spiritual nature after it's been 'refracted' into our incarnate self. That, at least in Daoism is the pinnacle of self development. This is what the attainment of Shengren is. Spiritual development goes one critical step deeper... it reaches out past that point of refraction to our Original Spirit.

Here's a little sketch of my tradition's understanding of the place that emotions have in our mental makeup. The emotions are known as the 5 poisons. Well emotions are part of the manifestation of the '5 lights' that make up existence at both the macro and microcosmic level... But they're definitely not at the root - and are considered to be quite a few layers of distortion out from the pure expression of the 5 lights. The 5 lights go through a very specific step by step process of distortion - and emotions are the mental manifestations of that process. They're known as the 5 poisons, because indulging in them is considered to move you further from one's original state of virtue, and it gets you further and further entangled in the Daoist equivalent of Karma. The alchemical process involves 'returning the 5 spirits to their origin' - a kind of reversal from the outward manifestation of the emotions back to the pure virtues and then back to you Yuan Shen... When one's actions originate from the 'emotional' aspect, they are known as the vulgar people... when one's actions originate from the De, the pure undistorted virtues, they are known as Shengren - or sages... when one's actions originate from Yuan Shen or Original Spirit, they are known as Zhenren - or enlightened.

Yes - there's a certain stage where qigong 'knits together' your body as a single structure - all through the soft tissue pathways (the fascia network). By single structure, what I mean is outside of most people's experience. I see online and in the exercise world is this idea of having functional movement chains and training the muscles to move in a more integrated way - this is very very good - particularly for modern people that sit a lot and look at screens - and then train muscles in isolation at the gym. But the knitting together of the body from a qigong perspective, it's a little different. This isn't about the muscles or 'functional strength conditioning' (when qigong was developed, not having functional strength was definitely the exception rather than the rule) Functional strength (to some extent) is a prerequisite - though you certainly aren't required to do handstand pressups or anything like that. The knitting together happens very differently... for example, you can hold out your hand, and open and close it, while modulating the level of stretch as you open and the level of compaction as you close it into a fist... And if you have 'the qigong body', you feel changes all through your body... like rubbery tendrils moving and pulling under your skin... you can clearly feel changes from your feet to the top of the head by simply opening and closing your hand. The mechanism for developing this is two-fold - it involves being able to absorb your mind through your body (to achieve this you need to clear channels, create and activate a lower dantien and generate some Qi)... Once there's some level of absorption, one needs to 'change the muscles and tendons' - which is a process that takes a few years and involves standing and moving postures that both unbind tension and adhesions and create strength and structure - much like bodybuilding - but using very different principles, mechanics and physiology. At the stage of the mind starting to absorb into the tissues, often the body tightens up a little... like the connective tissues are suddenly more activated and start to come alive and hold things together. Then this connection is developed and strengthened... but this is where the hypermodibility starts to come into balance. The issue is that activating the dantien and the qi in your current circumstances is not a good idea. Creating tension in your muscles to hold your body together is also not a good idea... So you're in a tricky situation at the moment. But getting some of the fundamental aspects of healthy life sorted (Yang Sheng Fa in Daoism) will make a massive difference... Sleep first... then exercise... then diet... Sleep makes everything possible, as it creates an opportuinity for your body to fix itself. But it has to be good quality sleep - and not too long or too short.

I’m enjoying this thread a lot. I find it interesting because we’re instinctually touching on important points. @Apech made a point about two contradictory directions or goals and @Bindi mentioned Shen Ming - these things are very much interrelated. Regarding the dichotomy of stripping away and creating. Daoism is actually one of the few paths that I know of that aims to do both. This is the nature of the Xing-Ming path. The thing is - how can you strip away, while also creating - these seem like opposing forces. The Daoist answer is Wei Wu Wei. It works through cause and effect - we create the cause then allow the effect to come about spontaneously. Ming involves generating huge amounts of Qi... Xing involves stripping away anything that’s not our true nature... The early result is the light of Shen Ming - not emptiness. For Shen Ming to arise we need several causes to be in place - and these are Ming related (Qi) and Xing related (stillness)... the result is the light of Shen Ming - not emptiness (this is considered a major error). Alchemy then absorbs into the light of Shen Ming to find its essence (form within the formless)... it plucks the essence from the formless and uses it as one of the alchemical ingredients... How do emotions fit in? They’re the coloured lights - refracted (distorted) from the light of your original spirit... as refracted light they are not your original self (but very close) and they manifest as the 5 virtues... as they ‘solidify’ (away from light and towards form) more and more - they become the various channels and organ spirits and on the level of your heart-mind, they become the emotions (quite far from your original self). The emotions are the muddied, contrived and convoluted manifestation of the 5 lights or 5 virtues. And the 5 lights are the refracted/distorted light of your original spirit - Yuan Shen. And Shen Ming is the light of the original spirit. The emotions in my tradition are not considered important - we can’t work with them directly because they get you mired in their own drama... So we work on a slightly deeper level - on the level of Qi. You can get a hint of how Asian traditions see emotion by how different their artwork is to Western art... western art is all about drama - the highs and lows of emotion... Eastern art tends to be about calm and equanimity - nature, the divine.

Inequality is everywhere in every part of nature. The idea that that’s wrong and that we need to make inequality equal - that’s a modern concept. Politically it’s been the apparent driver for a number of pretty brutal dictatorships from Stalin to Pol Pot. How do you act in this sort of situation? Daoism is not like Christianity - while there are classical texts, they are not used as the focal point of truth like the bible is. The idea in Daoism is to transform yourself so that you discover the truth within yourself - not in an external source.

To be honest I think Mig’s question wasn’t really a question... It was more like a ‘Daoists don’t care about inequality - prove me wrong’ Sometimes when I answer, it’s not an answer to that person’s direct line of inquiry, but to the lines of inquiry that spin off the original for other readers. Changing resistant minds is not a fun game. Sharing my perspective to open, inquiring minds is delightful. Hearing other carefully considered, nuanced perspectives (especially when they disagree) is also delightful. Politics is a big hot topic at the moment and I think it’s interesting to see the true perspectives of other cultures and ways of seeing the world. Me personally, I don’t 100% agree with the pure Daoist view. I think that there’s room for taking some political action to move society in a better direction. I think the Confucian approach definitely has some merit - especially to the ‘vulgar’ class of people. I firmly believe that spiritual cultivation is not right for the majority of people. And there’s nothing wrong with that. But I 100% agree with them that however nuanced my understanding of how societies function, it doesn’t come close to the reality of the matter. I’m well aware that my view is severely limited - and that my own ideologies (I do have them) are not necessarily ‘right’ and will invariably have unintended consequences when applied at the societal level. My political action is simply to voice my opinion, vote and make changes in my behaviour after considering the full picture as best I can. Then I leave it be. As I say - trying to change resistant minds is one of those foolish games that I’m not interested in playing. Getting emotionally involved in opinions, to me, is also the silliest thing imaginable. It invariably creates divisions, narrow mindedness and the sort of ‘self’- idolising drama and wilful ignorance that I find really distasteful. In my opinion it’s never politics that changes society to any great extent - it’s technology. The abolition of slavery is seen as a big win for politics, but in reality it came about when a much ‘cheaper’ and easier form of power became available (oil). It’s things like metallurgy, medicine, printing press and internet that create big change - politics just plays in the sandpit created by these big society shifters. No wonder that the Daoists were the ‘scientists’ and advisers of their time (rarely the politicians)