freeform

Part of the same yes

Daoists are not concerned with trying to influence society. They were very much the 'anarchists' of their time - and they rebelled against Confucian ideals which were very much focused on developing a harmonious society (Confucianism may well be what you're looking for) The Daoists assert that to impose any external structure onto people would invariably cause major problems. Even if this external structure was benevolently seeking the best outcome for everyone. Instead of perfecting society, they sought to perfect themselves by dissolving any internal structures and contrivances accumulated through culture, through their experiences and external cosmological factors. When the human spirit is tamed and controlled (even when this control is aimed at making things more equal and fair), it cannot possibly align with Dao. Just as caging a bird and feeding it the best quality grain and offering it warmth and shade and the finest living conditions - it's still imprisoned and cannot express its true nature. The Daoists sought to elevate their functioning to be in line with Dao - not in line with ideology. There was no talk of equality. Even though people have some potential - they don't all strive for achieving their potential - so no, there can not be equality. In fact, there were categories of people. To function in line with Dao, you can't will yourself, or control your actions, live by a moral or eithical code (these were used, but more as a stop-gap to develop the correct inner qualities that would result in transformation). These are all externally imposed structures onto your nature. To live in line with Dao, you must transform yourself by dismantling all these structures - layer by layer, until your true nature shines through (and in some Daoist traditions they took this futher into enlightenment and 'immortality') Along the spectrum of transformation they would talk of categories of attainment: The vulgar people - these were the people absorbed in worldly life - raising animals, growing food, making money eating, drinking, fuucking etc. They are largely blind to the deeper aspects of who they are. They are living in the tamed, controlled circumstances - but they're completely blind to the fact that they're imprisoned. The natural people - these were the ones that realised that there's something more to life... They worked to align themselves with nature. Not focus on loss and gain, status and money - but become intimately in tune with the patterns of nature. These guys were healthy, smart, and with a high degree of self development. The sages - these were the legendary wise people. They had a deep understanding of nature and transformed themselves to the point of touching Dao. They realised their innate nature and acted in accordance to it. Their conduct was often confusing, but they were deeply aligned with the Dao. These were the healers, 'scientists', wise consultants, philosophers, often poets and artists sometimes appeared to be common folk like butchers or beggars... The Zhenren - the enlightened ones. These had transformed themselves a step further. These were the ones that reportedly had magical abilities... laregely lived away from society - or amongst society, but completely hidden. They could see into the cause and effect chains of any events... They were the peak of what's possible for an earthly human. The immortals - fully transformed every part of themselves into their innate nature. There were claims of actual immortality and there were claims of 'spiritual immortality' - where they lived unbounded to the earthly or heavenly realms. They could reincarnate or choose not to. At the moment of death their bodies would disappear into a bright light. They were technically not human any longer - they were more like fully actualised spirits incarnated into a body that's on the verge of being light rather than physical substance.

There are a few ways to deal with a wound. It could be an open wound - still excruciatingly sore, sensitive, vulnerable to infection... This is the reactive trauma - if someone pokes it, we lash out and react out of pain... It's possible for it to be infected and for it to spread to other parts of us. The pain of it colours all our experiences. The choices we make and what we do is out of 'service to' this open wound. Sometimes these wounds will heal up to some extent with time. It's like they're scabbed over, but still sore. They're still causing us to limp, but we've forgotten all about it. It affects our actions in the background - we might decide not to go on that long hike with that promising love interest because of the limp... but we don't connect it to the wound any longer. We could work to heal that wound. That starts with finding it if it's been forgotten. We must deal with what caused it. We disinfect it and bandage it, we soothe it with some healing salve... We deal with the limp it's created. When it's healed, it becomes a scar. But now when someone pokes it, it doesn't hurt as much. We have a little more choice in how we react to the poking. We don't avoid going near it as much. In fact we might wear this scar as a badge of honour. It still affects our actions - but quite likely in a rather positive way. We might go out of our way to help those with a similar wound. We might teach our children how to avoid this wound in the future. That, to me is self development. But in the Daoist traditions I'm in, we focus on one thing. We focus simply on shedding our skin - layer by layer, until we become light. (Become light is an important part of this metaphor - as it appears that many paths forcus on realising that we are light - in the alchemical Daoist traditions our aim is to become the light fully in this lifetime.) There are plusses and minuses of doing things this way. In some way, having a scar can be a very positive lesson - it can help propel us to be better people. We might be kinder or more patient and understanding with people because we know that they also have sore wounds... we might be motivated to help others who suffered in a similar way. The alchemical Daoist way is more about shedding everything. Including the kindness that comes about as a reaction to having healed a past wound. The idea is that eventually, as we start to become light, what shines out is pure virtue - or the five lights of virtue... In the Daoist approach, the ideal circumstance in your story would be that you completely 'forget' that you were ever an alcoholic... like you might have a clear memory of it, but it would be no more pertinent than the memory that your first car was blue. When I first understood this, I found it a little troubling to be honest. First of all - I have scars. And I'm aware that they've shaped me and my behaviour in various beneficial ways. Secondly - does this mean that someone who hasn't been a good person can simply shed their skin in the same way and not have to have a scar? (I later learned it's not that simple, of course). There are definitely self development methods in Daoism. In fact martial arts training is one of the primary methods and Chinese Medicine (with all that entails) is the other. But in alchemical schools, self development isn't considered an end in itself... it might be required in so much as it might assist in actually going through the alchemical training - but to be healthy, strong, happy and virtuous isn't the goal.

Your channels are your mind. Clearing the channels is the same as clearing the mind (and emotions). Thoughts and emotions are intrinsically connected from the Daoist model. Every thought has an undercurrent of emotion - sometimes obvious, sometimes very subtle. This is why they talk of the heart-mind - not the mind and not the heart. I do agree with this to an extent. The aim isn't to become numb to emotion or to ignore them. What you describe is a far more healthy approach than sweeping these things under the rug - or numbing ourselves in some way to not experience them. Equanimity is a big topic. So I'm over-simplifying - but it's not a case of not connecting to the emotion - it's closer to connecting to it to such a degree that you go 'through' them to the stillness from which they arise. But without this equanimity, connecting to a stuck emotion or to past trauma - and giving these things your attention will invariably create attachment. It may well be that by giving these things your attention, you can change your relationship to it, or create different, more healthy responses - but that's not the aim for Daoist cultivation - the aim is to release all attachment. Not to make them healthier. There's a difference in therapy or self-development vs spiritual cultivation. Often some therapy is necessary before cultivation begins - but their aims and methods are different. For example in the Daoist cultivation systems I'm familiar with, you'd never pick a particular trauma to work with... Because firstly - your mind has its own ideas of what you think you need, but it's rarely correct... blockages work like constalations with different things supporting eachother. By picking what we'd prefer to be rid of, we miss everything else supporting this blockage. Secondly, by the act of picking a trauma, you're already building more layers of attachment to it (or aversion to it, which works to keep things stuck too). You're giving it a lable, you're differentiating it and making it more solid and 'real' in your mind. The idea is that in the process of your training, stuck emotional patterns will be shed off by themselves, at a time and in a way that is correct for each of them individually. So the result is that substantial changes happen without you even noticing. You simply forget about that traumatic event in your childhood... and all the beliefs, emotions, and reactive patterns of thinking and behaviour that were built up around that trauma just drop away - no fireworks, no 'closure', no forgiveness or reconciliation or understanding - nothing like that. You only really notice it when you're in specific situations that used to cause you issues, and you just notice that they don't anymore... in fact it's often your friends or loved ones that notice that something has changed before you do.

No - just a fellow Daobum enjoying following the discussion at hand. Again - this thread is discussing the role of emotions in a spiritual path. Not moderation - please take that up in the relevant part of the forum. This isn't your discussion.

@Damla - it's nice to have a little music break in a serious discussion - but repeated posts that are unrelated to what we're discussing can derail a useful conversation.

It's an example of what true equanimity means - which is the ability to enter a calm state of stillness regardless of circumstances. And it's in reference to this famous photograph (not for the faint-hearted):

Releasing unfelt emotions by allowing them to be felt is very tricky... at least the releasing part. By feeling your emotion, you actually re-attach and strengthen its influence in your subconscious. It’s true that it’s possible to release emotions in this way - but only if you can be in a state of equanimity as the emotion comes up. Equanimity is a pretty advanced state... the vast majority of people who think they’ve achieved it, haven’t. They may have felt it for short periods while in ideal conditions... If you find the sound of cars honking while you’re trying to meditate irritating, then you’re nowhere near equanimity. If you’re distracted by anything - whether internal (eg pain in your back) or external (people walking around you) while you’re meditating, then you haven’t reached equanimity. If you’re the monk that can burn themselves alive and not react to the pain and enter stillness as your flesh burns - that’s equanimity... But how many of us have achieved that sort of equanimity? The Daoist method of releasing blockages, that I’ve been taught, is not by allowing them to express as felt experience while in a state of deep equanimity. It’s done very differently - it’s done by working on them directly at the level of Qi - not the level of the heart-mind. Releasing anger for example is not felt as anger, but might be felt as heat moving up in the body and out of your hands. It’s experienced in a much more mechanistic way. You sense the effect of anger on your body, but you don’t sense the emotion at all. In fact, much of the time in practice you’ll be releasing stuck emotions without ever even knowing it... a little shiver here, a warm sensation there, a giggle and a yawn - all of these may well be releasing stuck patterns that were created by that strict catholic teacher or that bully at school - but you’d never know, because the content isn’t felt or experienced - all that’s felt is the movement of Qi. If you have the zifagong process active, anger might express itself quite physically through your nervous system - you might spontaneously growl or flail around and shout... but all the while, inside you don’t feel a trace of anger (or any emotion) - you just have the awareness of your body doing these strange things. If you feel anger, then you’re invariably creating an attachment to it at some level of your heart-mind.

Where do you see equality? In what natural system have you seen equality? A plant sends out hundreds of seeds... some of the seeds land on deep, fertile soil, with good sun and humidity... some land in a pond... some land on concrete... some land on barren sandy soil... some land in the shadow of a mature plant... the ones that do grow to maturity invariably cast a shadow that will stunt the growth of other seeds. There is no such thing as equality in nature. We think that concepts in our minds should make perfect sense in the real world - but our concepts are based on a very limited perspective, they’re biased by everything from our emotionally reactive subconscious preferences to our upbringing, our language, our parents and their beliefs etc... Reality is always far more complex than any ideology. Political movements that have attempted to create equality have proven to be some of the most brutal. Yet the ideology that started them sounded so good. If you truly wish to understand Daoism, or any other ancient tradition that has stood the test of time, then you need to approach it with humility. If you come to it with preconceived notions, then all you’ll see is a distorted reflection of yourself.

What does inequality mean in this context?

That would still be considered an experience - (or at least incomplete)... For the Daoist teachers I’ve trained with, something isn’t complete until its quality has permeated from consciousness to the energetic and all the way to the physical. Unless this permanent shift in consciousness has manifested physically, it’s still considered an experience... even if the experience lasts years. And in many cases this is exactly what happens - a change in consciousness is experienced for a time until it closes down again and the self subverts whatever inner changes have taken place back under its domain. For example a Shengren has specific physical or physiological signs. And every step towards the transformation of self has these signs. The way they name things kinda illustrates the thinking... We think of ‘qigong’ as something we do - but in reality it’s an attainment - it’s the attainment of the mastery of your Qi. The exercises we do are the means by which we attain qigong. Most terminology is like that - and there’s a reason for it. It’s a very practical, pragmatic system. Guarding against delusion is built in. In many ways other paths are often quicker because you can have all sorts of experiences without having to work for the transformations. But for the vast majority these will stay as experiences, for a few talented or just plain lucky ones they’ll result in true transformation. In Daoism, possibly because it was a secretive tradition with fewer numbers of practitioners, they had to create a system that works for most people. So everything is achieved through gong... and through all the layers, including physical.

It’s a popular way for sure. But different paths work differently - and Daoism is one of the more methodical ones. Yes - exactly. It’s a two way street. And ‘correct’ depends upon a lineage. There are different ‘corrects’. To achieve sagehood, a teacher isn’t required - it can be attained with a method alone (and a lot of luck, discipline and natural talent of course)... The DDJ is a method to become a shengren for example. But to go deeper, to the various stages of immortality for instance, a teacher is required because you need a living lineage connection. Yeah. Sadly true. The rampant assimilation and homogenisation is sadly killing off any real growth of the spiritual arts. And we get shit like ‘Yoqi - combining the best of the ancient practices to improve your sex life in jus 8 minutes a day’. So teachers fall under the spell of ‘we understand things better now’ and so we optimise, simplify, combine, reinterpret, hack, assimilate, scientifically validate, modernise, improve...

Well in general momentary experiences are not considered important (though not completely without merit) in Daoism. The general emphasis is on ‘gong’ - a permanent quality. So Shengren is indeed a very important attainment - but momentary awakening is not. As far as I understand shengren isn’t considered enlightenment, but a kind of deep wisdom and a sort of perfection of humanness...

I appreciate that - you’re always careful to state ‘from the point of view of...’ One teacher answered this question that was raised by a student. His impression was that at the time of the Buddha, the ones who went to seek him out were in fact high level yogis or at least ones with a great amount of merit and at the edge of attainment anyway, and Buddhas transmission was like a lightning bolt that caused them to suddenly become Arahants. There was also talk of the time of the Buddha being very conducive to spiritual transformation. The tantric paths were a later development to overcome the difficulties of subsequent cycles of time. I’ve also heard a teacher talk about sudden insight. This was described as something similar to what one hears of as enlightenment or awakening - where there’s a sudden, apparently causeless realisation of the illusory nature of self. In his opinion this form of sudden awakening is not enlightenment. In fact the majority of the gurus that then go on to ‘fall from grace’ and commit terrible atrocities began their spiritual journey this way. When you read the stories of the moment of awakening in people like Werner Elkhart (and, strangely a few other Ekharts) - this ‘sudden insight’ is what happened to them. According to my Daoist teacher, this is a momentary awakening. In some people, if the underlying causes are present (generally created over several past lives) this is the start of a step by step process of the dismantling of the illusory sense of self until they eventually become a Shengren. But this is very rare. Momentary awakening is not rare at all on the other hand. From the Daoist perspective it’s possible to become a Shengren without a spiritual path - living in balance with nature and aiming to purify ones emotions can be enough, but to develop the attainment of Zhenren or Immortal invariably requires a teacher, a method and a lineage.

Ok thanks. Yes definitely very different to Daoism. I think the closest attainment in Daoism is Shengren or sage. But in the case of Shengren it’s a permanent dropping away of acquired identity and having transformed ones preferences, emotions etc into De or the classical virtues. It seems quite different to ‘the recognition of the illusion of self’ - which sounds like a temporary experience that might produce a shift in outlook (like a psychedelic experience might also) - but then you operate back from your limited, local self. Even then, a Shengren is not considered to be fully enlightened in Daoism either. What is obviously clear to me is that paths are different. Very different. Which is great. I’m genuinely happy that Dwai has achieved his realisation according to his path. But what I find incredibly troubling is his constant, relentless insistence that all paths are essentially the same and that they all need to lead to what he believes they need to lead to. I think apart from being plain wrong, the constant attempt to homogenise all paths together is extremely damaging and shows a massive lack of humility. Imagine if I loved Britney Spears so much that any time any other music was mentioned I’d assimilate it under the Britney umbrella. “I love Beethoven’s 9th” ”Omg yes - he’s clearly communicating the same feelings as Britney’s Toxic” ”Roots Manuva’s baseline on Witness is amazing” ”Yeah it’s just like the live version of Britney’s Baby One More Time!” I think seeing as these traditions have been around for thousands of years, they really don’t need to be assimilated or reinterpreted. You can just leave them be and respect that not everything has to fit in with your views and preferences.

When my teacher was accepting students I’d see him laugh every time someone relatively new to the practice asked these sorts of questions - what time to practice, what direction to face, what feng shui is best for practice, what colour training outfit is best etc etc. What he explained to me is that this sort of thing only really applies to people who are already closely resonating with nature... And it can make that extra 2% difference - which for an Neidan practitioner at a crucial stage of cultivation is important - whereas for a beginner doesn’t make any difference at all. He said that the tendency for beginners is to be over-perfectionistic with their practice which is effectively an unconscious stalling tendency. ‘Oh I’ll start training when the planets have aligned, and I’ve moved to a house with perfect feng shui and I finally get those red silk trousers and when the clock strikes 12’... and they obviously never get anywhere.

Yes there are certain pills designed for longevity. But as far as I’m aware, they always go hand in hand with inner cultivation. Without specific cultivation most of these pills will have an adverse effect or no effect. Neigong pills are openly sold in Asia for example. These are low-level pills designed to increase the production of yin and yang Qi... but if you don’t have a consolidated Dantien and relatively open channels they will give you a burst of uncomfortable levels of energy while depleting your essence. Generally people feel manic, excited, unable to sleep for a period before crashing. For someone who has trained extensively, they gently upregulate the production of Qi in your system and the Qi will begin to ‘fill’ the Dantien.

There are also several lines in Myanmar that make ‘external alchemical preparations’. In Daoist Neidan traditions external alchemical pills are very common... there are many different ones. They tend to go along with certain processes in inner cultivation - in many cases a pill would be completely poisonous (or at least ineffective) unless you’ve had specific physiological changes take place through inner cultivation. It is definitely not the case that you take a pill and it magically makes you enlightened.

Silly me! I thought I could stop things going in this direction! But it's as inevitable as this constant move towards homogenization of the modern 'spiritual' scene. (I came across Yoqi the other day on youtube - combining yoga with qi gong ) These sorts of statements are very common nowadays. But look in the classics - particularly in Daoism and you never hear anything like this. In fact, it's very much the opposite. And often quite harsh - such as calling 'normal' people the 'vulgar' people... I think the idea is that from the perspective of an 'enlightened' being, there's a sort of full-circle of coming back to the notion that nothing has changed, and all that's between you and enlightenment is realising that it is so. Another reason people say this is that it's another way of saying that you're enlightened without actually saying it. Or sometimes as a form of 'the humbe brag' - where in answer to "are you enlightened?" - they would say "everyone is enlightened already - some (aka you) just haven't realised it yet (whereas I have)" The thing is, it's a semantic trick. Whether it's a case of peeling away of the layers of the acquired self to reveal an enlightened self that was always already there... or it's a case of 'creating' enlightenment within yourself through some process - pragmatically, it doesn't matter, because either way it's a process of going from A (unenlightened) to B (enlightened). And even then - peeling away the layers of the acquired self and reaching this 'original self' - for the high-level teachers I've met, this is not enlightenment... It's simply the realisation of your true self... it's the opening to begin true spiritual cultivation... everything before this isn't technically spiritual cultivation, because you never had access to your spirit - now you have... now the spiritual part of the process begins. I'd be keen to hear where this 'you're already enlightened' talk comes from. You mostly hear it in Neo Advaita and Newage groups... However, I'm sure they picked it up from somewhere. I suspect some modern teachers within Buddhism, or Hinduism have said it... Does anyone know the root of it?

Why do you think I’m saying we need to be any of those personalities? I’m saying that to alter, create or reconfigure a spiritual system, you need to have achieved the pinnacle of spiritual transformation - like ‘those personalities’ did. Maybe I am ‘the Truth’ that shines from within them... but that ‘Truth light’ is marred, manipulated, refracted and overshadowed by my acquired self. Which means I’m not qualified to create spiritual traditions. Or are you saying you can, because you’re fully enlightened? Just not to waste time with the ‘we’re all already enlightened’ type rhetoric... Yes, the potential to become a surgeon is within everyone - but that potential is not enough to start operating on people. I’m sure you understand this And just as another reason not to start messing with your own spiritual amalgamation. From what I’ve been told, the karma associated with leading people astray with false spiritual teachings (whether the intent is malevolent or benevolent) - the karma accrued can be huge. When you restrict and manipulate someone’s spirit (even when genuinely wanting the best), the damage can last lifetimes for them... and the karmic fallout for the one doing the manipulating is severe.

I think you’re more dissecting than you might think The truth is that dissecting or assimilating are both useless if we’re still led by our preferences. Whether we dissect or we assimilate, we invariably shape things to fit our preferred ideas. In alchemical Daoism the true dropping away of preference is recognised through a specific physiological change. In non alchemical schools it’s just tested by - for example, feeding the aspirant some human excrement, or having them meditate amongst rotting corpses. But this is not so accurate because if you’re motivated enough, you could use willpower to get through the ordeal... Until we have dropped all preferences, I believe it's best to let traditions be. No over-interpretation or creative analysis needed. All that's needed is following the training methodology coupled with a keen awareness of the changes happening inside. However mature we think we are, we're probably not at the level of Jesus, Buddha, Lu Dongbin, or Lao Tzu - so we don't need to make any alteration or reinterpretation of any system. And in a way that's quite freeing - especially when you become aware of the karmic issues regarding leading others down a wrong path in spiritual cultivation.

The best time to start spiritual cultivation is years ago. The second best time to start is today

Ha! Really? I know that David had access to some genuine high level teachers... so maybe there’s something to it Cheers!🍻

My experience of the Northern approach is most certainly not a 'xing only' approach that @dwai mentioned. I believe the higher level Neidan practices - the ones that @MIchael80 mentioned as the 'ancient Neidan' that works on the causal level - from what I understand, are indeed part of modern Neidan schools - and are known as the higher vehicle of cultivation. The lower vehicle being the direct work on the Ming level, the middle vehicle being work on the Xing level. If I've got it right - that what you mention as the ancient Neidan, is indeed the same as the 'higher vehicle' as I've been taught - then yes, there is no manipulation of energy as the work is done in a different 'body'... Except you can't really access this level of practice without having created form within the formless - in other words, created the causal body first. Even if you have the methods, you can't put them into practice, just as a pianist without hands can't play the piano. That's probably why it's reserved for the higher-level teachers in the school you're talking about. As I understand it, when it's said to have been developed before the yellow emperor, it is not really talking of true historical time, but of a certain cataclysmic shift in human consciousness. After this shift, the higher vehicle became inaccessible to people, unless they went through certain processes (the lower vehicle and middle vehicle). ahh the perennial move towards homogenization Daoist systems of cultivation are not about truth - they're about setting in motion a step by step transformation along a certain causal chain... Kind of like saying the cuisines and recipes all across the world are all the same because the end result is a pile of poop I don't think it's up to you Dwai, to correct the old sage's apparent 'mistake' of getting caught in the weeds of post/pre-heaven concepts. Being a practical bunch they don't come up with stuff for no good reason. No, that seems to be one of the first things that get left out, both the replenishing and actually working on the level of Ming instead of working with other energetics that are similar in apperence. That's because 1) The methods are largely secret and 2) They are hard to achieve 3) There's a step by step chain of causality - miss even one small link in the chain (even right at the beginning) and the result won't be correct. You'll have some results, certainly... you can even get amazing results - but they're still not 'correct' and won't lead you to the 'final result'. From Pregadio's translation of Foundations of Internal Alchemy: This simple sentence gives an indication of what causes must be in place for the beginning of jing to qi work. Yet how many people do you know with a 'cinnabar field (LDT) as firm as a stone' - for a start... Let alone the brisk flow of the jade fluid when beginning practice. Because people don't manage to achieve it, they lower the bar to meet what the have managed to achieve - might say that it's metaphorical, and it means you should have a big round belly... or worse still they might say 'imagine a red stone in your belly' [edit] I've even heard of Mantak equating the jade fluid with gargling your own urine... I completely agree. The reality is that for the recipe to come together as intended, there are many prerequisites - one built upon the other... Classical texts might talk about what to expect when things go right and what to watch out for when things aren't right (if you're even able to decode the meanings) A cookbook might tell you that when flour is mixed correctly in the right proportions, the mix should rise. But the classics won't tell you how to mix it correctly, or even what the right proportions are... that's the teacher's role. To discuss the picture of the final loaf of bread without knowing the method or working towards your own bread baking skill - well that's often just a waste of time. Although - saying that... some people can touch the transmission within the text (as @Yueya seems to) - and that can certainly bring a certain deep connection to a tradition, though it probably would not result in a nice, crusty loaf of sourdough.

I think even if you're not interested in self defense, you're missing the real value of training a martial art, if you don't expose yourself to at least some pressure - like from sparring. I think this is especially the case with internal arts - if you can only mobilise your jin under perfect circumstances, the real skill of the art is lost on you. The reason my teachers have taught martial arts has always been because it's a great way to train equanimity, song and ting while under pressure. This has many useful applications in spiritual cultivation - which is their main purpose... it also has many obvious applications in normal daily life... If you don't apply pressure, you miss all of this valuable crossover. The pressure doesn't even need to be that high... just some friendly, non-compliant sparring can be enough. Just doing forms and push hands isn't enough.