Pietro

Many people identify the water method with the tradition that uses inner dissolving as a form of meditation. But fact is that other traditions in Taoism use that meditation too. After many years I came to the conclusion that what really defines the water method respect to the more fire neo-Taoist traditions is the absolute centrality of the 70% rule. Let us remember that while in China you had Taoism with the water method in India you had Yoga with the "practice as if your hair were on fire"-schools. Totally different approach. I appreciate your effort in trying to find a middle ground between the two. I am just not sure it is such a good idea. you risk to lose both the smoothness of the nervous system, and the speed of fire. Above fire below lake, at times it is important to retain one own individuality.

Hi Max, you know I am against those hard practices that break the 70% rule. You might reach that objective, but at what cost on your nervous system? But I like the idea of building up the practice in separate moments during the day. I might incorporate that. Also, mantis, you definitly should stand in the wu wei postire with your hands by your side, finger pointing down, palm facing back, and thumbs touching the side of the body unitl you can stand with no problem for at least 20 minutes. Even the student Max is refering about was closely supervised. I wonder if the fact of having some new moderators means that we might be able to get some sanity by being able to ask to get, for example, this thread disentangled. Dividing the ZZ part from the DV part. Just wondering.

That's the plan Happy highways

agreed. I would stick with the idea of not having pictures, and learn instead hot to not have the joints collapse. I was quite lucky that during the exam in front of Bruce one of the instructor said that my right knee was closed just loud enough that I could hear it, and correct myself. Nothing beats direct feedback, and memory of how it feels when it is working. I would also add respect to what Max said: keep your eyes closed until you can keep them open and neutral. Do NOT open them for some seconds and then close them for some seconds... And, you know, I still have problems to even stand while having my long relaxed breath. Let's say I am a late bloomer ;-)

what really surprises me is that he had this results while looking at tv. With Bruce a big part of the work in ZZ is that your mind is not supposed to be wondering, and you shouldn't be seeing movies, in or out of your mind. Regarding the time in ZZ, Bruce practiced for 6 hours for a period of his life. But now he suggests different schedules depending on how old a person is, and what are its aim. Generally 3 hours is considered about the max that is still convenient. The minimum (which most people can't do from day one, so that is already an aim) is 20 minutes a day. When you can do 20 minutes a day he will suggest to only do 70% of the total time that you can do (below 20 minutes you can stretch that slightly over 70%). Also he says that ZZ is right for people who are younger. People over 40 or even 60 should not stand too long. Please don't PM me asking for the right timetable for you, I said all I knew, the rest is in the books. Oh, yes, Bruce also explains that there are 200 postures that will give you different results, but my understanding is that no one outside of China knows or teaches them. Bruce himself does not teach them because, he says, "I would need 1 month a year for 9 years to be able to teach them properly". So it looks like ZZ under this light was a complete system.

Well, we need tounderstand what age are we speakign about. I mean, will you teach them calligraphy before teaching them reading and writing? Will you teach them astrology... but not astronomy? I think all those are fine (except maybe astrology and few others) as complementary skills. But you need to give them the foundations. Now this does not mean to teach them in the same way we were taught. Mathematics need to be taught, and so history and literature. You can make it world literature, and explain history with mindmaps, and other cool education tools we have developed in those years. But the big risk, is in making those kids unable to live in the world. The suggestion of keeping the kid under the radar, so the system never have awareness of them is simply naively and extremely silly. Unless the state has some ways to integrate those kids later in life you are essentially forcing your kids to be second class citizens. The intentional communities around (for what I know, all of them) work under the principle that the kids do exams from time to time, so that their level is legally equivalent to the other kids. This because those kids need, once they are 18, be able to leave the community, and go and meet the world. They need to be free, and maybe to enroll in a university. Maybe for you, right now, this is not important. Fine. But you are making decisions for small people who have no way to make decisions themselves. Even if your skills as educator were fine, and perfect, and better than the ones of professional educators, your kids will still miss a piece of paper that proves it. And without that piece of paper they will, effectively, have a glass ceiling above them. Consider instead ways to give them an equivalent, equally valid, education. And to complement it with all you know.

But did David really learned there that set? He has traveled extensively in China and Asia. It might be that the set that he is presenting is also been taught elsewhere. But there are reasons to think he is presenting stuff he took from his trips. I don't think David is stupid, and to present in Rome, stuff you have learned in Rome for a much higher price does not seem a recepie for economical success. Also Ramon, you said that you have tested David, and he has made you feel the electricity. Does those courses let you develop this? Are the people in the other school also able to do that? With this I am not saying anything about the ethics of the course. Or the appropriateness to invest time in learning it, but it does not feel correct to say that David is teaching something he has learned in Italy. It might be, but I am prone to give David the benefit of the doubt on this.

One of the things we need to understand is, what freedom does the law of your country give you? Let's be practical, in what country is all this happening? In most countries education is by now a legal requirement, so the suggestions, to be realistic, and have a chance to be adopted, should take into consideration this. Some countries permit home schooling, but there are often exams at the end of the year to make sure the kids are not falling behind respect to the other kids in the country. On the one side we are all romanticizing the old times, on the other it is education that is giving us freedom. Do you know what people in Tehran are saying. Not the students, but the bullies. The guys that have been employed by the government to beat, torture and rape dissenters? They say (I cite from memory, as I don't have the time to look up the original on the web): (in Farsi) "I will torture you because you know English, you are educated, and the whole world is open to you." Those people are enraged that they had no real education. And this made them prone to be manipulated by the government, and able to torture people. It is common for religious people to discount education outside their religion. It has happened again and again in history. Let us not make the same error with the kids of a Taoist community.

finally an interesting topic (sorry to all the others). Let me share something. It is a school system that started in Italy during WWII (I think). Since there were few adults the parents of the kids started to take an active role in the school. They were all moved into a big room, with the adults spread out, and each adult speaking about a different topic. Then the kid by voting with the feet would go toward what they were interested in. I think it is called in "metodo emiliano". But I am not sure. The only article on the spot I can find, was here: http://www.agoravox.it/Il-Governo-ha-paura...modello-di.html Now the interesting thing is that in the US there have been schools that have started copying the method, and a teacher told me it was due to Clinton, who imported it. I have a friend who told me how he went with his kids to the stated for a season , and the kids studied in a "different" school (like the one I described above). He said that single season gave them a lot. More than years of their common school in Switzerland. Maybe you could investigate it, and set up something like that. Maybe some adults could teach while they are doing works. Additions: So, I found a better article that describes it, but still in Italian: http://www.ciln.mcmaster.ca/papers/seconf/italy.pdf The school is described on page 4, 5, and 6. On page 5 it describes how in 1992 Newsweek run an investigation on the best primary schools and found that the best in the world where in Emilia. Of course no one it Italy was aware that we had such a jewel. After that President Clinton investigated it and (the rest is history). If you are really interested you could look if you can find the original article from the Newsweek. Note the phrase "modello emiliano" is in brackets. Maybe you can use that as a keyword.

Indeed I understood it not

Hi Lino, before looking if there is anything that we can do, let me ask a couple of questions: what is your diet? is there anything in your life that is keeping the door open to those entities? "...with demons often the solution is not to give them what they want but what they need..." BKF (while helping me years ago) (which is opposite to thee taoist position respect to human beings: "with human beings the taoist position is to give them what they want, until they will want what they need")

Thanks, I'm flattergasted

Hello ramus and welcome. This might be an overshoot, but I wonder how does all this relates with the story of monkey king. If it relates at all. One of the things I would add in the couldrum is that, according to Taoism as presented by Bruce Frantzis, the aim is not the dissolution of the ego. Where the ego is more seen as a tool that is needed for certains tasks (like living in the world). Of course between keeping the ego to its natural size, and pumping it, there is some difference. One thing that we should remember about David is that he has the support of Rene Navarro. Now Rene Navarro is not only a great martial artists, but also a person of great integrity, humor and wisdom. So it might be that he sees all this as stages in David's developments.

What's that? It looks like Hung gar, or Shaolin. One thing that came to my mind is a comment Bruce once made: would you rather be as weak as you can be, and healthy, or be strong, and unhealthy. In the water tradition strength is seldom associated with health. And in particular the sensation of strength is not associated with health (as it derives from a blockage). Also in the water tradition being an immortal does not mean that your physical body lives longer. His teacher Liu Hung Chieh died in 1986 of a natural death. He was born in 1905, so that makes about 81 year. He knew when he was going to die and for what I know he did not try to extend his life. So there is also a whole school of people who are just trying to live a life of their natural lifespan. (I know tas So I would agreee that I) we miss good statistics II) statistics need to be contextualized by the time, space, culture where they are taken. III) often people who do energetic practices do so because they want to overcome a disadvantage (some were weakly kids, etc). SO they are not a good sample of the population, so even comparing statistics with the general statistics of the populations is not necessarily the best. IV) it heavily depends on what are the practices being done, and how well are those practices done. V) some school of practices do not even aim to extend the life at all. So I would say that considering all this, we don't know. Maybe the only thing we can say is that people doing chi gung feel better, and at times are able to overcome some problems. But consistency of results is not really with us.

Hi Eric, welcome back. Most people here have their own personal section, as a personal blog. To have that you need to PM Sean. Unless Sean gave the power to others, as he said he wanted to do, in which case I assume those people will tell you directly. Posting a message it's easy. You just did that. To post a new thread, look inside any thread, at the end there are two buttons, one sais NewTopic. Click on that and you get to start a new thread. Possibly with a poll, if you want it. Yes, there are blogs, but to my knowledge no one are using them. The people who have tried have lost interest, since no one was reading them. In this case it is really useless to go against the flow. Some people who wanted to have blogs had them somewhere else (like on wordpress.com), and then advertised them over here. Pietro P.S. I am afraid you will not find many interesting Taoists, over here... we are all very boring

I don't think it really matters. What I do think really matters is if your experience of the world is continuous or not. For example while writing my mind also went to Castaneda books, and wanted to add: "P.S. don't give too much importance to Castaneda books. They were just novels. ". So I was not present at your question, and my experience of the world was not continuous.

Please send a wish to Father Paul. For those of you who did not know him, he was a great member of this community. He became an immortal two years ago. As we predicted, we are missing him a lot. You can find his posts here. Post one in reply in this thread. one:

when shaken not stirred, Father Paul could reply always, for "he" was no more.

Actually people in open relationships, who find a new partner tend to fel their whole life more energised, and more sexual, and among this also the first partner. The funny thing is that when I am attarcted by a new partner, the old one becomes more attractive also. Unfortunately her jealousy corners me into having to make a decision (unless I am willing to lie). But if you have transformed your jealousy you might as well discover that when she comes back home she might be more sexual even with you.

Hey! Whose anger are You feeling!

What an interesting subject. It is said that person will give you a good suggestion when he can't anymore show a bad example: many years ago I left my girlfriend because she has had a summer relationship. This after I told her that we were in an open relationship, and that she was free to go with others. Interestingly she would answer "yes, yes, you say so, but the moment I would really go with another you would leave me on the spot". She was right although for years after that I regretted what I did. So let me share some of the wisdom I have gathered in those years from when I so foolishly acted. I read that you are considering divorce. I don't think this is fair or acceptable. A man that is a man is bound by his own word. Did I gather right that you are from India? Gandhi use to say (among many others) that happiness happens when what you think, what you do and what you say are one thing. You have agreed to let her investigate this other relationship, and you would somehow break your own word if, after telling her she could do something, you would divorce her because of that. This does not mean that you have to stay in a relationship you are unhappy with. You can change the rules at any time. Provided you take the time to discuss it with her. But you cannot divorce her for something she did following your advice. Please note that she might have slightly manipulated you by suggesting that you could go with others (it is natural for generous people to answer, you too). Even if this were true (and I cannot know it, only her innside her heart), you still need to be responsible for your own words. I think you are already going in the right direction respect to getting over the jealousy. When I was in that bad situation, after a lot of pain and suffering I felt that I could get over it. I just could accept what has happened, and stay with her. I was at the time 26, and I use to go to an analyst. She was an old woman, very wise. It was her who suggested me to leave her. Because, she said, "maybe you are too young for that kind of relationship, better would be for you to experience other women, and other relationships before settling down". Sometimes even wise old women are wrong ;-). So I think you need to dissolve your jelousy. At least about what has happened (or is about to happen) this time. Or fuse it. Or just stay in reality. Or something. Speaking about open relationships, I have read a lot about them, and I also often tried to have open relationships. I never succeeded, but I now know many ways that don't work. One of the things that I understand is really important is to have really clear rules. For example some people are allowed to sleep with others, but not to have kids with them. Other are allowed to sleep but not to make love. Or to have a 1 night stand, but not to sleep with the same person more than one time (which would produce attachment and a relationship that can dis-stabilize the first relationship. Others are allowed to have other lovers but not 1 night stands. Others can make love... provided the first partner is invited to join. Or the first partner is invited to watch (this is great -meditation wise-, there is nothing better to face your jealousy than seeing a woman you desire have sex with another man). Other require that the partner pass one night home always immediately after the the night they had with someone else; to reconnect with the family. Others need to know who the person is. It is interesting that some couples have a philosophy of "don't ask, don't tell". And people who live in an open relationship for many years tend to agree that this is not an acceptable base. So I would say: You can't divorce her for what she will do this time. You need to face and dissolve your jealousy, if you feel this is to hard you can still change the rules from now on, be open to what the rules can be. Find something that fits both of you.

You shouldn't compared with the number of members, but with other polls. It is not going bad at all. Many members do not come often, or at all. And btw, I did vote

Thank you Lin. Actually there are some physiological benefits from mantra that are independent of the phrase. So for example the cocacola mantra was actually used and attained calming the heart, relaxing the heart beat, and I don't know what else. (Those were measured, I am not making this up) And it does make sense, because there is of course some level of nervous and muscolar tension that is purely coming from having random thought. If you just can get the mind to go circling even on something simple, that will have some basic effects. Now the question of course would be how far would those effect goes, and you very clearly explained that the effect you are speaking about would not be reached with another mantra, which was my question. Many thanks, Pietro

Thank you Sensei, but I am already in trouble. The confort zone is a distant memory, Sensei.