Pietro

Ok, now you are playing the mystery card. And now the experience card!

Xabir, your position is inherently dishonest. You speak about but it is only thanks to this biological and genetic commonality that you can speak about genetic in the first place. You can't claim that you have extraniated yourself from your human position, say that the experience of the world is only bound to this commonality, and all this while using the exact same concepts that has (according to you) arisen out of that commonality. As such I state that the problem with your position is not that is false, but that is unprovable. And if you claim that you have proven it you are either being dishonest, or relating the words of other people.

No, according to measurements, taken by machines. Sorry, I do not understand this phrase. I just cannot parse it. ditto Not really, because: a) there is a substantial agreement between what we all perceive, and what we perceive from one time and another. we change slower than the observed particle. Look the fact that your tool for observing is part of reality and as such changes as well is not a good reason to just declare the whole thing as unknowable, throw your arms up in the air, and just have a party. Yeah, things change. Yeah, we know reality through observations, which are inherently subjective. But we agree upon those observations which makes them intersubjective. And gives us a pretty good hint that those observations reflect the state of the reality behind. Another good hint is that people who seriously have their modes of observation change just do not remain alive too long. You know after they tried to fly out of a cliff or similar. SO we have moved from a series of subjective observations, to an intersubjective agreement, to a well rooted in overwhelming observation that all those observations mirrors an external world. So we now can reasonably suppose that (a) there is a world outside. ( although the world changes, it does it slowly enough for us to be understandable, knowable, measurable. Now those intersubjective representations of the world, which are not just intersubjective of one culture, but intersubjective of the whole human experience. And so wide that we have a good guess that also animals perceives them, we call them "objective reality". You want to say that you differentiate yourself from everybody by claiming that those are not true. Fine you can say so, I will just call you a lier, because although you say that you differentiate yourself, you do not really do so. How do I know this? Because to negate reality is to put your life at risk. How? By trying to fly, ingesting poison, or similar.

When I am using the word truth and real I am taking the simpler and pragmatic meaning of those two words. Something is real if it exists. I claim that you must know what reality is, or you would not be able to remain alive in this word. So if after this you feel you still do not know what something IS real, then I claim that you are dishonest and an intellectual kid playing being a smart-ass. Similarly I am taking the simpler and direct meaning of truth, as a claim that correctly mirrors the state in the world at some time. I will claim that you know what does it mean that something is true. ANd I will claim that if you claim that you do not know, or I do not know, you are being an intellectual and a smart ass. Imagine, you are with a girlfriend, you promised her to be faithful, and then you fucked someone else. She asks you about it, and you deny it. Then when she finds out beyond any form of doubt you deny that that is what you mean by truth, because in buddhism blah blah blah. She slaps you, and walks away with tears in her eyes thinking how lucky she is to be free from such an asshole. She is obviously right. I don't care what the Buddhist concept of Truth and Real is. I don't give a fuck. You guys might speak in secret code for what I care. Here, in english, we use simple words. And truth and reality are direct concepts that every kid over the age of 5 understands. This is how I use the word truth and reality. Take it or leave it.

Oh, finally we are getting to something. So there is something out there. Something which is real, and which we are striving to understand. Problem is that it is always changing. But since it is often changing slowly we have the time to attach words to parts of this reality. SInce it is not changing that slowly, sometimes we find ourself that those words fail to describe well the reality. All this seem fair, and acceptable. I am not sure that you can say that "everything" change. I mean, for sure the physical state of the universe is always changing. Ok. But, for example, the tautologies and the theorems that are generated by a set of axioms, those do not change. As such not only there is a reality outside. But there are also law of logic, and maths outside. I will not enter into the laws of phisics because under extreme conditions they too can change. But the rules of mathemathics. The fact that there are an infinite number of prime numbers, for example. Those Truth do not change. (which is why some mathemathical mystics believed they were contemplating a part of the mind of God. I disagree, I think God, if she exists, must too bow to the laws of mathemathics.)

Hi Serene, not really. I mean, I received an answer (1), but the answer essentially said (2), you need to meditate long enough (3) until you see the world as I see it (4). And as I see it is (5) the correct one (6), because (8) those people said so (7). I still don't see how all those claims (at least eight) can be declared true in a universe that is not real. If the universe is not real no claim is true. Sounds like those people have not invesigated the corollaries of their own theory, and are just repeating what other people are saying. But I am faithful that eventually an explenation will appear. Unfortunately being a mathemathician and a scientist I am quite strict in my understanding of what a proof is. The core is that a proof is not an act of believe. As such I consider invalid the following arguments: Proof on Authority; The Mystery Card; Claims of personal Authority. Let me explain: no proof must be given on authority ( I don't accept a proof that goes, it is so because this book/teacher said so ); no mystery card ( "It's a mystery" is logical bancruptcy ); no "you don't have enough experience" card. If you have enough experience you must be able to explain it to me (I can on science, and believe me, Artificial Life is not always that easy). If you are not able to explain it, you are essentially relaying on the authority of others. See point 1. When someone, not using any of the three intellectual tricks above (who could make me believe something, but not understand itm, and really make it mine) will be able to show me how reality does not exist I might concede. And hopefully at that point I might walk through walls, get invisible, and look through Nastasja Kinski underwear (yeah, I am old, but she was hot). In the meantime...

Hello Serene, I agree with you, this arrow reaches the center. It was shot by Harry G. Frankfurt, a professor in philosophy, in a couple of tiny books. The first called "on bullshit", and the second "on truth". In the first he claims that bullshit is something qualitatively different from lies and truth. And that the bullshitter is not someone who lies, but someone who disregards the truth of his statement completely. As such the bullshitter is seen as more dangerous than a lier. In the second book he then analyses why is truth important. And he does this in a very pragmatic ways stating that a person or society who disregards the truth (either by lieing or bullshitting) is bound to survive very little. Just by poisoning itself, or running against a cliff or doing any of the other thousands of things that will terminate its life there and then. And it is here that, en passant, he throws this stone. By the way, I tried to repropose the question here: but unfortunately Xabir did not answer, so far.

Hello Xabir. You just made a claim: "There is no truly existing external reality, nor is there a truly existing internal reality" How can you claim that claim to be true if there is no external reality? Anticipated thanks for the explenation. In no bullshit, yours Pietro

Let me add one ingredient, to make the whole discussion a bit more spicy: The problem with the statement: " there is no such thing as an external reality, is not if it is true but if it can be true." I cite it by memory. I might check it out later, and edit back. Don't discount this very deep statement from a modern philosopher.

My native language is italian, and then I speak a bit of french. I don't think there should be subforums for minor languages (like italian, polish, etc...). There probably should be a chinese forum. If not for other reason but to permit to this place to grow in china. Which then could help the practitioners here too. Maybe we could have the google chinese english translator installed, just to have a laugh. And the other languages that could if neede be used should be the really big ones: English, Chinese, Arabic, Russian, Spanish, French, Portuguese. (Sorry to the German people). I think that pretty much no one who speaks two languages does not speak at least one of those. In any case the world functions in English, so beside having a Chinese place I don't see the point of adding the others. BTW how are we doing resepct to Chinese censorship? Are we being censored? Do we know?

Please do not believe things that you know being wrong. If you honestly look at all you know, and you make a reasoned guess about something, then it is ok to 'believe' it. But do not start believing, and then look for info. It's really not a good place to be. And it has some huge risks in you becoming a danger to others or to yourself. Now some hard facts: do you know what does that mean? I am a christian ... so .... It just doesn't sound right. Being a christian should more be on the right side of the equation, being relate to something you believe, which should then be related to some facts: facts--->belief--->Religious identity. The other way around really does not work very much. Feeling and facts are not the same thing. you know it, I know it, let's go on. OMG!!! There are multiple errors in this line. And I just cannot divide them all. But let us start: First of all we need to accept that there ever was an Adam, and that human beings were created. Even if we accept this fully mythological, fantastical, ungrounded, unproven story, then we should go along with the story: when Adam lived on earth... there was no one else except Adam and his family. Fact: before Jesus there was no one that was a christian, and Jesus himself was a jew. Leaving aside the idea that there was any Christian before Jesus, and rereading your phrase as: some jews... traveled to different country some group came to China and whit the knowledge they knew about the Christian Jewish God the found inspirations of the beautiful land of China and from there the Yin and Yang came thanks to inspiration from God, and from there came Tao! Now this is more plausible. But of course is fully unproven. Plus we have proves (mosaic in tombs) that the concept of a duality was present thousands of years ago. Way before Lao Tzu. But sure the idea that spiritual ideas somehow moved from one country to the other is quite plausible. What you should be aware of is that nearly every tradition on the face of the earth rewrites history to make their tradition look older. You want some examples: In chuang tzu, lao tzu is seen as older than confucious; (factually lao tzu probably never even existed!) There are taoists texts that declare that lao tzu after leaving went to india to start buddhism. And viceversa, stories that claim that lao tzu was a bodhisatva... and so on. So check the facts first, then try to find a plausible story that fits the facts, if your believes clash with the facts change your believes. May I suggest you: The Jesus Sutra: a book from a serious academic about the first christians that came to China. The Shambhala Guite to Taoism, an easy to approach story of taoism. More like in more modern times. Religious taoism is more modern than philosophical taoism, and part of it does see a lot of gods. Generally the ultimate forces are seen as non conscious, with no personality. But I am not sure in some taoist traditions where lao tzu is seen as a direct expression of the source you don't find a symbolism very similar to the christian one.

How do you make the i ching something physical? Do you throw the coins, and then run to catch them before the touch the ground ;-) It seem to me that you already received many good advices. So I will not add much. A couple of ideas: do you find yourself being bored even when your life is not so ok? Because if your life is going shit (pardon Mat, merde ), it is easier to feel the blockages. When things are going well, the blockages are often deep inside. The fun part are not the blockages, but when you release them... at least in the kind of meditation we do. I would pay a lot of attention to the physical posture. Often if the physical posture is not good, you can detach from your body, and then simply not be aware of what is going on. You say that you get bored. How long can you keep your attention focused? You probably will notice that you cannot keep it for long stratches of time. Interest comes when you are trying to do something, and although you are failing, you feel you are making progress. You could count the breaths, and when you reach 10 start again, or once you get distracted start again. If you are honest, you will notice that it is hard even to reach 10 one time. If you do reach ten, try another exercise: count up to 5 breaths, than 6, then 7, then 8, then 9, then 10, and then start again. If you get distracted you will mess up, and then it will be harder to lie to yourself. "If all the time you sit you simply bring back your attention to the here and now, your time sitting was very well spent" (Some swiss christian saint, I think, although it has been repeated over and over)

Hmm, what results? Doing what? For how long? And what is more important, how can you be sure that your results are not a form of self delusions, and how can you be sure that another students following the same path would have reached similar results? I am not trying to be annoying, but you speak like a beginner, who had some peak experiences. What you should realise is that: (a) we are all different, what works for one of us might not work for another. ( experiences need to be brought to the objective meter of the community (or the teacher), to make sure they are not just a form of delusion, denial, or escapism.

Hi Ramon, the reason why many book don't enter into too many details is because there is an understanding that some people are not ethically straight enough not to use those information in a way that would not harm others (and ultimately themselves). For examples about this, please look at the book "the sociopath next door; the material expressed is really huge. You don't want to just teach a technique, but also teach where it can go wrong, and what to do in that case. While teaching a technique can be pretty straightforward, for each teachnique there are often thousands of things that can go wrong. Many instructors out there, for example, can teach the basic technique. But how many can avoid, and correct things going wrong? A book nearly never can. some things are simply hard, if not impossible, to express and learn from a book. Leaving aside the simple amount, there are things that are transmitted not on a linguistic basis. Your body can understand them. But your mind will catch it up later. And then it will still be unable to express it in a way that someone can get it. For those things you need to use live to live human relation. not all techniques can be done by everybody (some people are simply not fit for some techniques) As in some people just should not even try some form of gimnastic. You often say that you don't work well with teachers, and that you work well with books. Well books are also great in other ways. They can often give you the detailed background about a tradition or a technique. You will not learn the technique, but you might learn enough to be able to find exactly what tradition, school, teacher, you want to learn from. What about reading Daniel Ingram Book. That can help you with Buddhism. And respect to the teacher... don't give up. Keep on going from school to school. Maybe sit on the back. Eventually you will link with some teacher, and then learning from him will not be a struggle.

There are not a lot of people, in this forum, who are proficient enough in vipassana meditation, and proficient enough in inner dissolving to be able to answer this question. There are probably quite a lot of people who have tried both, but to be able to answer this honestly you need to have a non amatorial understanding of both. In any case technically (at your level, in any case) the inner dissolving works from the top down. In the vipassana (please, guys, correct me if I am wrong), you concentrate on the breathing. And when you get distracted you recognise the distraction and then go back to the breathing. Inner dissolving is a taoist meditation. Being a taoist meditation you are always aware of your body. Vipassana is a Buddhist meditation. I don't know much about it, but my understanding is that no such strict guideline is there.

They must have added this after the trial, then.

Not exactly. Each company can buy to link his ads with certain words and words combinations. The company that offers more for that string (word combination) gets it. In this way words that are irrelevant, hardly used, cost less. Words that are common, with a huge traffic, cost much more. While this system works fine for google, and it is quite fair toward the companies, it has the negative effect that there is little control google or the website owners can have over the ads appearing. What you are describing is more similar to the system used by Amazon. Now, that is more fair. But unfortunately AMazon does not offer advertisments for third party. The fact that a word is linked with an advertisment has been a problem before. I don't remember the details but there was a car brand that started advertise when someone was making a google search on the name of a competitor car brand name. They sued, and lo and behold, they won! I don't know how google managed that situation after. In any case for what google can control, if someone discovered that taoists being into celibacy, and similar, are probably an easy target for porn ads, you would find all sort of adult ads appearing. (actually I am not sure, there might be an "adult" filter, but you got the idea). Scientology people have simply paid more than everybody else to have their ads appear on people who speak about taoism, meditation, and anal-breathing. Honestly there isn't much that Sean can do about that. He could take away the advertisments all together. But any other form of ad-hoc ads will require a huge invest in time.

Good. Don't forget the water. My other suggestion would be: security: make sure someone knows where you are, &/or add a mobile, with no internet connection, & turned off(just in case). maybe forget the books. Although I do sometimes bring them in this kind of situations, the experience is usually stronger if you do not have ways to distract yourself. Your choise. Don't bring the ipod ;-)... or the laptop . Books, and music tend to connect you with your "usual self". Let that go.

Good point! Very good point. we all are (or have been).

When a young man comes of age, it is common in some cultures to have him face his fear. Staying for the whole night out, in a place where there is no real danger, but all the appearences of danger, can be a good one. Provided there are no serious wild animals (I don't know where you are, some woods still do have wolves and bears), it sounds like your wood can be that place for you. You could go there, find yourself a confortable spot, maybe bring a blanket, and not sleep. It is fairly important that you do not sleep. If you know how, cast a circle of protection around yourself. If you know what, you can sing song that gives you power, or remind you of your own power. You just need to face your shadows. By the morning the magic will have had its effect, and you will never be that scared of woods. In fact they might actually turn out to be quite your allies. After all, have you ever thought how bad would it be for those spirits if they were tu meet you? :-D Or maybe you can look on internet, and find a group of native american, or similar, which will organise a similar initiation for you, while integrating it into a wider ritual. It's ok, we all have gone through it, at one time or another. Bu!

Hi Steam, interesting. Can you tell us more about meditating on the heart. When I use to work with Chia we learned not to focus on the heart too much to avoid having too much energy in the heart. And we all ended up there, one way or the other. To get the energy away from the heart it took ages. Some 6 months, and it would happen naturally. Any practice seemed to just not do nothing, or make things worse. Now I know a couple of practices from Bruce which also involves the heart. But since I don't master them I don't speak about them. They are more about dissolving the the middle tan tien. But this is something different: Can you tell us more about your meditation on the heart? Do you concentrate on the heart? On the physical heart or generally on the middle tan tien (i.e. in the center)? Do you not get too much energy in the heart. Is there any particular worrying sign someone need to take care of, to avoid damaging himself. You say: I really like this. And it goes very well with Bruce which will tell you not only what to do, but also what is the aim. SOmething which I find often to be missing in others teaching. So what are the aim of concentrating on the heart? I have a hard time (heart time ) thinking you can concentrate on the heart to cool the energy... Many thanks, Pietro P.S. if they are too many questions please answer only the ones you are confortable with.

I have to admit I fail to see what does this have to do with this thread, but I have to admit I really can see what this have to do with my life in this moment! Thank you very much!!!