Pietro

I am not so much into symbols. But I would generally suggest AGAINST tatoo any symbol on your body. Especially if you believe thay have a certain power. And especially if you don't find many people wearing them (haven't been tested). Years ago, when I first came to learn about Taoist Meditation I studied Fusion. It was in Italy, with David. As you can imagine it was rather intense. At the time I was doing the military service. The workshop took place during a week end. In the evening I came back, and energetically sealed my bed from everybody else. Arriving at putting PaKua at each corner of the bed or similar. A few days later I couldn't sleep there anymore for the excess of energy, and I had to remove them. Just imagine if I had done that in a way that could not be removed: something like tatooing them on me, bronze casting in the foundations of a house, and so on. Whatever use of symbol you make my suggestion is, if you think it is effective, make it temporary, unless you are REALLY sure what the effects are in the very long period. Ex. you might have something that protects you. Good in the short period, but after some days you just feel you cannot reach for your friends. You are near them, but you just feel so isolated. Etc... I once had a friend who was very much into meditation, and energetic stuff, and mantak Chia, when she went to live alone. She made a protection to the whole house sealing it from anyone who was not a serious and honest spiritual seeker interested in reaching the absolute. After some months, when she was wondering why she just couldn't get many people to come to her house she remembered of it. She laughed in that case a lot , and removed the protection. It might be all created by your mind. Even my friend. She might have been inviting her friends with a different tone, if unconsciously she felt they were not honest seekers, but in the end the house was pretty empty nevertheless. So the suggestion applies just the same.

Hello Procurator, I think you must have confused the links. Pregadio is of course a serious academic voice, and he is indeed making a review of Eva's work. But only in respect to the book "Understanding Stillness". If you have a specific review on this book I am sure we are all interested. In the link you provided (thanks, by the way) the only part that seem to be more general to me seems: Which indeed again shows Wong as a person who is presenting her own version of Daoist History. Which by the way is also something that she is presenting in the introduction of her book. We chose this book for various reasons, but essentially because it was accessible, introductory, and had some historical information (albeit not always objective). Getting immediatly into something harder might not have been fair for all the people who had up to now a passing interest in Daoism. If you had doubts on the book we were reading you should have voice your opinion before. Like Taomeow, who by writing a critique of Luk's book was able to stir the whole group from that book. If you make the critique in the right moment you will indeed have an effect on the whole community. So, please do. FOr example right now we are collecting suggestions for the next book to read. Isabelle Robinet, History of Taoism, has been suggested. Regrdless of the fact that I will read that book anyway, I have some doubts over reading two books on the history of Daoism. One after the other. Considering that we need a book in English (either written in English, or translated). Considering that it needs to be accessible for the current minimal level of this group (not the average, not the top, the minimal). What would you suggest?

given that not many people have a clue (or hard data) about " the Daoism of the classical period" and the "Shamanism before that" this statement is not quite meaningful. Well, considering that this is a discussion internos between person who are in the book club; given that the book club is at the moment reading a book from Eva Wong on the History of Taoism; given that such book has two chapters (chapter number 1, and number 2) describing two different type of Daoism, one called the shamanic origins, and the other called the classical period; given that such chapters don't just describe the period in which those type of Daoism mostly originated (or emerged), but also how were the Daoism from those periods different; given that we do have hard data (texts) from both those perios. (For example for the Classical period we have the Lao Tzu and Chuang Tzu. While for the shamanic period we have texts that are collected in The Daoist Experience); given that more than this we have the luck to have the possibility to ask to an archeologist for descriptions abotu more non textual data, archeologist who is particularly interested in that period; given that some of us (me in particular) is studying with a Daoist, who is a recognised lineage master, and claims that the teaching he received are coming directly through oral tradition from the Lao Tzu tradition. I would claim that instead we do have enough material for this discussion. We are here refering to the period in which the DDJ was written to about when Daoism became a religion. Circa 300/400 BC to 300 AD. Some people would make it start earlier. Well, the archologists seem to be pretty sure that shamanic practices were present before the philosophy that gave rise to the DDJ was developed. Now this about the origin. No one here have said that Shamanism stopped there. are you really amused, or are you just pretending to show a superiority that you don't really posses? "Procurator", I appreciate your comments. They are often harsh, and direct. But please as you ask (actually require) everybody to do their homework, do yours to. We are here discussing the Shambhala Guide to Taoism, from Eva Wong. Have you read it? agreed

Agreed. It surely depends on the definition! But the definition must make sense. If you find the same cave with similar remainings in China or somwhere else in the world, then in the one case you call it shamanism, and in the other daoism? Such a definition looks preposterous to me (or actually post-pre-erous ). At some point you need to draw the line. And there seem to be some qualitative difference between the Daoism of the classical period, and the Shamanism before that. So I think you might find some of that "Daoism which is similar to the one in the classical period, and different from the one in the shamanic period" before Lao Tzu. But certainly not thousands of years before. And hardly not in the stone age. So you have Shamanism (undifferentiated, thousands of years ago), Shamanic Daoism (differentiated, have some of the elements that are then carried out as modern Daoism), Classical Daoism (the one of Lao Tzu, Chuang Tzu, etc...). How far will you make the Shamanic Daoism go back? Before it is just the same as everywhere else in the world.

Thank you. That looks like a very interesting and useful book/map. I wish something like that existed for Daoism as well. Cheers, Pietro

I suppose listing the problems you are facing right now, and sending it to the future of one year would make sure that you got a pretty good feedback on how we are often always working on the same probelms year after year. What was the message you sent yourself that stopped you (if you can share it)? Pietro

Some time ago I was speaking with a Buddhist. Asking her about the concept of Death in Buddhism. Eventually we went on to speak on Daoism and Buddhism. And she asked me how old was Daoism. I said 5000 years. She found that very interesting, and asked me some references. On the spot I could only give her Eva Wong book. And reply that I remembered by teacher speaking about Daoism being 5000 years. In fact, right now, that I am writing I remember that when I went to my first Kung Fu school, there also they said that we should imaging on the altar a 5000 years old sage. Again 5000 years. And people who play Go (in Chinese WeiQi), say that the game is also 5000 years. And interestingly according to Eva Wong Daoism came down from Tibetan mountains. Which also the game of Go is said to come fown from. SO in any case eventually I went to Alan to ask for clarification. I thought that being an archeologist he would be able to tell me better, but I would never have expected his answer. Alan- The story of 5000 years, is essentially bollocks. 5000 years ago China was essentially in stone age. There is no evidence whatsoever that Daoism is that old. The oldest copies of the DDJ is about 400 to 300 BC. Confucius is a couple of centuries earlier. Lao Tzu probably never existed, as there are conclusive evidence that the DDJ was written by multiple hands. Then the story of Lao Tzu being older than Confucius is essentially a story in the Chuang Tzu placed there for Chinese Politics. But the fact is that there is no evidence whatsoever that Daoism is older than Confucianism. Me- But Eva Wong, Bruce. Alan- Eva Wong, is essentially telling her own oral tradition, and so is Bruce. But one thing is the oral tradition that is passed down, and one thing are external evidences. Me- if somwthing is passed through Oral tradition, they need to register the time. And some how update their story as time goes by. Alan- Exactly Me- So if Bruce hard 5000 years from his teacher, than it should be 5030 by now, but he is not going to make this change. So the oral tradition has a serious difficulty in estimating big length of time Alaon- yes. Me- But I heard about ancient remainings, and tombs, and drawing in caves... Alan- [sorry, guys I do not remember all here] Yes, we have drawings of people in Chi Gung postures from ..., and we even have a tomb from the ... period, where the dead person was placed between a mosaic [if I remember well] of a dragon and a mosaic of a tiger. But what is all this telling us? Me- that the concept of duality was already present. Alan- yes, and maybe more. Also that the position of being between the duality was considered beneficial. But we have no books, no scrolls. Consider that even the words "yin" and "yang" were not even being developped at the time of the DDJ [this is particulary sweet if you find them in translations of the DDJ in english. Where a chinese word is being translated into another chinese words that didnt exist at the time!]. They only started appear later. So there might be a tradition in the making, or an oral tradition that with the DDJ suddenly emerges to the light. But at the moment we have no proofs of this. And in any case 5000 years is just bollocks. From that moment "5000 years"became a standing joke between me and Alan. I know he gets really annoyed when Bruce says that Daoism is 5000 years old. While I get really annoyed when anyone, and in particular Bruce, says that some effect in meditation are due to "quantum effects". So we often push each other buttons by joking on it. I thought I would put this here, as people are starting to read the book. I think it is important to consider how much of what we read is objective, and how much is Eva's particular oral tradition. Still I think that as we move from the shamanic origin to more recent history the book become more historical and less mythological. Pietro

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4008293090480628280 It looks so. 3 google video, each 55 minutes long. It says: A National Geography Documentary based on the book Guns Germs and Steels. I have the book, but I only read the first chapters. I am looking forward to those 3 hours. Pietro

I think it is a great offer. Somehow I think Dr. Yang has really made the jump that will bring martial art training to a new degree in a globalised cosmopolitan world. I mean, this is like discipleship. But is offered to whoever is willing to go through the training, and has the necessary requisites. I am looking forward to see more Big Guys, offer this kind of training. At least one time in their life to find their successors.

What is the Name of this Book Club? or taking xuesheng's suggestion The Book Club that can't be Named

Simply not having sex raises the probability of prostate cancer in men. The testosterone is transformed into DHT in the prostate and in most men, especially those with a sedentary lifestyle (i.e. most of us) it does not leave the prostate. This with time hardens and enlargens the prostate, and in time rises the probability of having prostatic problems. Ejacualting, from this point of view is beneficial because it gives some good squeezes to the prostate. Shit guys, we've been through all this how many times? Pietro

Hello Little 1. You are asking me not to share the "doubts" that I have. No I will not. Sorry. This would be equivalent to shut up on trust that you do know the solution, even though you have no time to tell it. I wouldn't do it if I knew who you are. I surely would not do it for an anonymous person on the internet. Plus, what I said are not just doubts, are conclusions we came after years of research. You can look in the history of this forum, and even more in the history of the defunct HTUsa forum. If someone comes to this forum asking if Mantak practices are safe, I will have to answer, out of my experience. Not doing it would make me responsible by omission. But a "safe & working daoist system" that is "not safe & working as a daoist system" unless you understand it. And no one (actually one, you) is able to understand it, is still a "not safe and working daoist system". SO, Little 1, if you do know how to make that system work; then I do invite you to take the time and share it. Also if you could prove that the origin of the sexual techniques were for practices that were designed for the young audience that Mantak is getting, I also would like to know it. until then... Pietro

Yeah, safe and sound. The MC can sometimes give some slight problems if done with no proper rooting, or without opening the fron channel enough. For those people, Michael Winn developped a special sequence of small micro micro cosmic that does not go all the way to the head. The other thing that sometimes does give some problem is the teaching to keep the anus contracted. Some people teach that from the beginning. If this is done in daily life can sometimes lead to problems. (fixed thoughts, inability to let go of things). But how to relate with ones' asshole is one of the way with which you can classify Daoist schools. It's not just Mantak, for what I know. Pietro

I think that Daoist perspective is: the more risky it is the more people will pay attention. Thus the fatality rate should be very low. Possibly less than incidents at home Craig, I would love to see more pictures of that tree. I always wondered if sitting on the edge, and dissolving fear was a very smart thing to do or a very stupid thing to do.

It does depends on what you are doing. But clearly 99.9% of Mantak Chia male studentsm who have practiced with him, got the transmission, and practiced for a few years are still NOT able to practice 100 days of sexual retention. Now 100 days of sexual retention in Taoism is considered the first basic step. The little achievement. And I stress the word little. And if they try most of them would fail. Many other would get hurt,... and a tiny minority would succeed. Mantak Chia practices were not designed to be safe. Mantak philosophy was always to give everything he had. This is a very generous position, but it is equivalent to use your students as testing cases for any new practice that comes to your mind. Speak with William Wei, and ask him how each time Mantak Chia is testing new practices. The practices in the book are a bit safer, as they are less random. But even sticking with them, and doing them after you got the transmission, and even finding out which is the best instructor on that particular practice, and getting teaching from him (a practice that I would in general suggest, as different teachers vary greatly on their level of expertise on the various practices), on that subject, still, many people would not be able to reach the little achievement. You call this a safe working daoist system. Hmm. Pietro (And yes, doing them without the transmission is even worse)

Yes, I think that the best answer to this question is that there is no consensus on the subject. I am starting to reach the conclusion that Chia did indeed took those practices from some practices that were going around in Taiwan in the 50s and 60s. And those practices were designed for old people, to get back their vitality. Which also makes a lot of sense in terms of history of Taoism, as we shall soon see in the book club, above. If this is true they were never thought to be done by young people with plenty of vitality, and trying to go for the complete celibacy. Not to say that it is not possible, just that those were not the tools for the job. I am starting to get this from 3 different sources. Totally unrelated. One is David, another is Alan, and the third is private. As such you have sometimes people on which they work very well, occasionally you get some who have trouble, and sometimes the trouble are quite big. Yes, you can fairly always track down the trouble to some foundations that has been not laid properly. But I know many people in this forum, which definitly have worked for years on this foundations, and still got problems. And this is why you will find people in this forum, who have a bit more experience in the forum to raise warning. Trunk is the quintessence of this. He was here all this time, and wrote his site synthesizing the knowledge of our community over the years. Essentially the fact that they never gave problems to a person does not imply that they are safe for everybody to practice. I hope this have answered your question sufficiently. It is a bit a russian rulette. But the good news is that if you lay they foundations properly this will generally slow down the bullet, so you probably can at least stop the retention if things are not going the way they should. And I agree that the secret is all in the testicular breathing, cold unaroused energy, and similar. Good luck, Pietro

Hello everybody. I am resurrecting this thread for some important reasons. I had some good exchange of emails with our brother Dao Zhen. And I have been practicing his techniques in the last few days. Really too early to say too much, but they seem sound, and interesting. And indeed authentic. Unfortunately work related appointments stops me from being able to make use of the offer fully. I can only go to China for the September period. But the September period is very full, so Dao Zhen's sponsorship only covered fully the June one. It is for the period in June between the 1st of June and the 17th of June. The sponsorship would cover all the costs in China, as such it is a very generous offer. Going while paying the whole cost would be around 2300 $ circa (+trip, which you have in any case). Through the email exchange with Dao Zhen also came out how he was really looking for someone who was willing to fully immerse himself in the experience, leaving back any prejudice, and preknowledge from other schools. This is an understandable requirement since the sponsored Bum will be asked to refer on the practices to the whole community. And to do this faitfhully you need not to contaminate them with your own previous practices. Although, as Adam points out, it is the right time for me to take retreats, and maybe go to China. It is not the right time for me to leave my school, or to start with a new one. So what I am doing right now is integrating what Dao Zhen is teaching with my previous knowledge from BKF and from Chia. This is ok for me, but not so ok for Dao Zhen, who was looking for someone who would be able to fathfully report on these practices. So I now would like to ask back: since I cannot go in June, since I have too much experience to be the uncarved block that Dao Zhen needs, since for those reasons I cannot economically and experiencially take full benefit from this occasion, is there someone who can, and is willing to. I know Mantis and Adam seemed interested. If you (or others) still are please let us know. Pietro

Hi xuesheng, Yes, definitly for a decision so important (I mean we won't change the name every other month, right?) we should go with the good old Condercet. It would go in two steps: 1) listing all the names that we suggest. 2) every one who desire to participate lists the names in the orders in which they like them. Then I (or whoever wants to do it) take all the data, run the software (a small python program), and print the result, and why the resulting name is first. Of course if someone likes only some name she can just list the ones that she find attractive. The others will be given automatically a last position. Regarding the name, I can think if I can come up with a better proposal. I think that the issue that it have to be understandable is an understandable worry, but it can be clarified with a small subtitle. House of the Great Mystery tao bum book club The names I proposed were thought as a duality. This is why they looked so nice in my eyes. I appreciate your investigation into how often should we read the books. I have to admit I am still not convinced that the club will not split under the wight of its internal dynamic. I mean, if before it was harsh to not read a book that you are not interested in, now it would mean jumping two whole months. And then for the people who are not interested they would probably start reading the book they are interested in, and then discuss it in the Main Forum. Which looks unavoidable, but confusing as well. So I would suggest to wait a few more months to assign the name, until we find out what kind of books are we going to read. What level of discussion is going to happen. And then, I am sure the names will just happen by itself. Like the two names that so much enthralled cat. I didn't went out to look for them. I was thinking about the book club while driving, and thinking how it seemed to polarise, and buum, that's how it should be named!. Let's wait for the next intuition from one of us. I am sure when one of us have a good idea we all will recognise it.

Onigiri, please, let me correct you. This book from Eva Wong is very accessible. I was given by Alan God of the Dao, also from Eva Wong, and girl, was it boring! I sincerely asked myself what misdeed must I have done for Alan to punish me in this way. It is a scolastic study of how Lao Tzu raised from being a mythical philosopher, to become a God who supposedly created the whole universe, appeared to transmit the Dao De Ching to the Gate Officer (who was then seen as another immortal), and then left, only to be then take a body again to become the Buddha, to convert the Barbarian, and so on. All this in the context of medieval debates between Buddhist and Daoists. Uff, made you wander when the next meeting with the dentist was, just to have more fun. But yes, I do agree that this book we are reading tend to widen our understanding of what Daoism is.

Buddy, I am sorry. I should not have told you to speak up or shut the fuck up. Since the offence was public, the apology ought to be public, too. Please, understand, I felt bullied, and so I reacted, as I do in those cases from a few years; I hit back with double the strength. So, yes, I would have done the same if you were here. Except that now I would not do it anymore: I now can see how unconfortable is the place where you are, and I do not wish to exacerbate this situation more. If in the course of your studies you have discovered things that can harm our teacher, your love for Bruce and for the work that he is doing, will stand in opposition to your love for Truth. And where do we stand respect to those two principles only depends on who we are. But neither is intrinsically superior. So, yes, understanding who you are would ultimately be the only way out. I am not telling this to preach you, but just to share what I have discovered in the course of my studies. Like you wanted to share with me what you knew in the course of your studies. I know you probably already know it, and your latest posts shows it, too. But a lot of other people will be reading this entry, and they deserve an explenation too. So, to continue my explenation for the sake of completion, there are some people for whom Truth is more important than Love or Compassion. And others for whom Love or Compassion is more important than Truth. According to Buddhism, eventually is only through Compassion that the human condition is solved. Still there are great authorities on the "Truth above all" side too. Gandhi, for example. Each of us must find their position in this dicotomy, which obviously have many other positions too. I, for example, am on the truth side. I can never find peace in untruth, Gandhi's autobiography resonated deep in me, and because of this I invited you to speak, feeling that in the long run the truth is always the best way forward. But this was because of who I am. Not because of who you are. There are plenty of people, instead, who feel that Compassion is more important than Truth. My father, for example, and for this in the past I have often been scolded for being too honest, harming in this other people. But many other people as well; all those, for example, that ascribe to the "he (or she) does not need to know, and it would only harm him (or her)" philosophy. People on the truth side are often accused of being unkind, and cruel. People on the compassion side are instead often accused of being hypocrite, or just lazy (confort loving). So, please, accept my apology. I could not at the time appreciate the inner struggle you were going through. Although I know I cannot free you of it, I hope this, at least will make it lighter. Pietro

maybe we should read it in the book club. Looks like a good translation.

First thing first: my teacher, Alan, asked me to read Robinet's History of Taoism. So I will read it, no matter what. Still if others are interested would be nice to read it all together. Second, I think it would be interesting to read some ancient taoist texts on the art of the bedchamber, or similar. What about Art of the Bedchamber? http://www.thetaobums.com/Art-Of-The-Bedchamber-t2151.html