Pietro

do you know how many tai chi practitioner are needed to change a lamp bulb? 101: 1 to change it, and 100 to say: "But in our school we do it differently!" Sorry, I just couldn't stop myself.

No Mind is a friend; "Joy! To give is to receive" this No Mind knows!

Save me from my mind Is too smart even for me I wish she was friend

Thanks Lin, sorry for having doubted you. Thanks Dao Zhen for your generous offer. Can i suggest that all those that are willing to go to say so over here? Specifying if they would only go if they are sponsored. I am interested and willing to go, both as a paying costumer and as a sponsored tao bum. I have a job, and i have a teacher so i think someone else should be the sponsored tao bum. Pietro

This is all so very confusing. Dao Zhen makes a generous offer, and then before we get a chance to decide who should take it, or who should decide, disappears. Lin, who is normally so respectful, starts making inside jokes. Luckily there is Buddy who maintains a certain levels of coherence. My request for Dao Zhen was actually for something different. As you can understand if you read my first two posts. But now that he is gone how am I going to bring them on? On the other hand he asked us (or just me ) to be quiet as he wanted the focus to be on the questions that he was going to pose. Which I did, but then before that has ended, he goes. Hmm. Thanks Cat. No, I am not a member. Yes, they might be able to help, but what I was looking for is just to build a bridge. A list of address. A place where people can go to start on their trip. I am not sure if they would be interested in that. Thanks Yoda, we obviously have a lot of respect for each other. When I read the offer, and I thought: hmm, who should be in the list of three, and your name came into my head. But would I be the right person? I think someone younger, with less money and more time would use the occasion better. If there are still places I could go as a paying costumer. Plus I could not subscribe to the fact that I will have to teach something unles it is wrong or false. There is a number of other reason why I would not want to pass on something. The first of them would be that a teaching can be not complete, and as such could be dangerous. Or you just feel inside yourself, deep inside, that it is not the right thing to teach those techniques right now. Take for example the practices that I have learned from Mantak Chia. Yes, I feel they are right. But I also feel they are not complete, and as such I have great difficulties in bringing myself to teach them. Even when someone asks me. I don't even use them myself for the same reason. But I am looking for the completion of the Jing to Qi, Qi to Shen teachings that was started with Mantak Chia. And as such I am interested. Dear Cat, could you please clarify better how would you proceed? If things are not on board, how can you ensure that the decision is being made according to how Dao Zhen asked? Pietro

Or sunlight made new... leaves in the ancient forest? Skeletric trees? Spring!

Now I am confused. So we start this book on March. Half march we chose a new book. April it arrives. We are then supposed to read it before May and then discuss it in May. I thought the point was to read it slowly, and discuss it while reading it. Can you please clarify? TheLittleStoneInYourShoe-Pietro

Hi Michael, so we're starting? Good! Yes, she is definitly mixing her own tradition with the facts. But she her writing style is pleasent and interesting. I think there are many traditions around the world where people transform into animals. Or have their soul get into animals, and then come back and report (A la Old Granny Weatherwax in Terry Pratchett ), or has the soul of an animal enter into theirs. after all werewolves are quite a universal tradition. So I wonder how different those practices would be from sciamanic practices in other parts of the world. I know someone asked Bruce at some point if there was still an unbroken sciamanic tradition in China, and he said that there was. It was a personal question, so I did not got to learn more about this, but maybe if anyone knows more on this they could share it.

Hello Wudangspirit. The problem is that new age is a bit like porn and complex systems. Hard to define, but you can definitly recognise it when you are confronted with it. The problem is also made harder by the fact that we can generally recognise it in other, but it is hard to recognise it in oneself. One of the problem is that there is a certain number of topics which are not new age di-per-se (by them selves), are new age in the way they are confronted. For example, Internal Alchemy is not new age. It is, historically, a part of Daoist practices. But the lightness that comes from taking a not so good translation of an ancient alchemical text, and trying it out, with no supervision, taking away the parts that do not make sense (i.e. most of it), the part which has too much discipline (i.e. nearly all the rest), and just doing some visualizations would certainly be classified as new age. Similarly I have a great respect for people in a Buddhist path, but for me the idea to take a buddhist book, out of context, with no teacher, and expect to merge some of those practices with some of the Daoist practices with no teacher in those too, is too light to be called naive. It is obviously new age, and I probably foolish. And so on. So I would say that New age is not the topic, is not the person, but the way some people approach some topics sometimes. And I stress the word sometopic, because the same persons are often much deeper when they discuss other topics. And maybe new age is the result that comes from a number of assumptions, and from practicing following those assumptions. Some of the ones that I would definitly class as assumption that tend to make a person act in a new agey way are: -you can learn a practice from a book -all spiritual path lead to the same place -you can (it is safe and useful) take teachings from different traditions and merge them. Also if you are not fully proficient in them -practices are inerently safe -we are all god(s) so we do not need any teacher/guide. -discipline is unnecessary -There is no final truth, thus everybody have their own truth and understanding of it. All those understandings are equivalent, so no external critique is possible. Note that I said that those assumption tend to make a person "new agey". But they don't necessarily imply it. Especially when only few of them act alone. For example I have a New Yorker friend of mine who strictly believes that "-all spiritual path lead to the same place", but then he is a very disciplined person who studies with several teachers, and is not new age at all. Nor his posts feel new age. I would also add that New Age is where we, as a culture, has recently transitioned through (and I am avoiding to say come from). Think on the way in which people have been doing yoga in the late60s. The flower generation. Now some of those people went back to become stockbroockers. Other made of spirituality their life, and went further to become roshi, and meditation teachers. So it seems an illness that with time does corrects itself. A bit like chickenpox or scarlet fever. And since our culture has been there so recently we cannot really pretend to be free from it so suddenly. It is in a sense our "karma" as a culture. So my take is that when people engage in New Age discussion the best you can do is to go deeper in their own topicand sometime challenge some of their assumptions. Or just be so new agey yourself that everybody will start to go deeper as a reaction But maybe we could add a button. You know, like some sites have a SPAM button. Well our button would be "NEW AGE". The button would not do nothing. Would not call an administrator, or give bad karma. But it would give feedback to the author of the post: so many person thought that your post was new agey. I bet the depth of the conversation would immediatly deepen Pietro

Agreed.

Dear Dao Zhen, thanks for the opportunity. Here are my questions. The first set of questions is on ethics. Many people in the west learned Daoism from the various translations of the dao de ching. Passages like: All can know good as good only because there is evil. (chapter 2, but if you can use the original chinese) Gave to us westerner, who grew up in a Christian upbringing with all its concept of comandments, sin and repent, the sensation that Daoism was really beyond this good vs. evil duality. Is this really so? Are there lists of precepts, and if there are, how universal are they? Do all daoists follow the same precepts? Are there precepts followed by all daoists? Are there Daoists who has en ethical system, and thus teachings, that are not based on external precepts, and in case how are those systems developed (i.e. how do they define what is "ok to be done", and what is "not a good idea, not smart, ethically wrong"?) On the various school around * Are there school of Daoism, lineages, traditions that can be traced back to before the buddhism influence in China that are still active/alive? (i.e. pre alchemy) How competitive are the various sects of Daoism between them? In what relation are one with the other? (he will probably say that they are in all good relations) And beyond the veil/secretly?(he will probably laugh, and then might give you a different answer) on the believe system In some religions, to be part of the religion you need to "believe" into something. There is the sensation that this might not be the case with Daoism. Is this so? And if this is so, what differentiates a Daoist by a non Daoist. And how does a person who is simply very interested in Daoist practices, who quietly works on himself and does his practice every day, stands. (In other words, according to him, people who practice Daoism in the west are Daoists, yes, no, the question does not make any sense, etc.) Relation with Buddhism What are the main differences respect to our Buddhist brothers in terms of practice, conduct and path. As you have noticed I have not said to who you should address those questions. I think you will know this better than me. My only indication is that I would like the * question to be adressed to both. Thanks again, Pietro

Hurrah for the man who signs with his name. Hurrah for those who sign with their real name, for those that ignore anonimity. Who stand by what they claim, and accept the weather of social criticism. Hurrah for the Sean Omlor, Sean Danty, Plato Rosinke, Buddy Tripp, Drew Hempel, Brian Kennedy, Keith Frantzis, and all the ones that I might have forgotten. Hurrah for all those and for the teacher who teach with their name, the Bruce Frantzis, Michael Winn and David Verdesi. Who did not need to change their name into a lama-sifu-master-joe-nanda-tzu Hurrah for those who put their face in their avatar. Or, if too ugly, have their face linked somwhere. Hurrah for us who don't keep the door open of the "it wasn't me". Who don't criticise others for what they have done while hiding behind the veil of anonimity. Shame on those who keep themself hidden. Who use strange ambiguous names, symbolic, indeed ! Who avoid the "who are you?" questions. Who require from others (with anger, not least) what they themselves are not ready to give. Who divide public figures, who need to be x-scanned, teared apart, and thrown eggs to, from the anonymous mass, and then from this anonymous mass, throw eggs to all the public figures who don't comply to their high standards. Hurrah for those who do not divide into public figures and mass, but realise that we are all human beings, all have our names, our experience, our faults, and we correct them all the time. And who give to others the space to make those corrections. Yes, I do divide. High, in my esteem, are the first; low, the others. Pietro CORRECTIONS: ok, so took away Ian, out of Ian's request. Added a P to to Buddy's name. Any other request?

Dear Dao Zhen, thanks for your answer. I absolutely agree that karma and luck are among the most important element to meet good teachers. I also would add an ability to feel when someone has something to teach you. This single feeling has guided most of my spiritual life, and is still guiding me today. My request, as said, where for two reasons. The first was to look for a possibility for me to travel to mainland China. The second because I think other people would be interested as well, and I think it would be good to settle some sort of agreement where if someone from the Tao Bums would wish to go to China, he would know where to go to, how to get the documents, and where to sleep and eat. Maybe also where to find a translator, or where to study Chinese. I am not investigating for more, because, as you said, it is then the individual karma that will let some people meet good teachers, and some others just have a good turistic trip. The information on the Visa's where very good (thanks also to Vortex). Unfortunately I am from Europe, so for me I cannot use Visa Rite. But I am sure, if necessary, I will find an equivalent service for Europeans. By now EU is bigger than USA, and as such the market rules will do all is necessary not to lose this opportunity. Personally I would be interested to go to Wudan mountain, and not that interested to go to Beijing. I don't like big cities, and my single interest right now would be to just go to some secluded spot to do some practice. If I don't meet anyone is not going to be a problem. I am sorry to hear that Daoism is declining, but not that worried. There has been many times in History when Daoism seemed to disappear. I am quite hopeful that the far away, remore regions will hold the memory of it, and bring it back when the times are more prone to it. Please feel free to add anything that might help other Tao Bums that might be interested to go to China. For me I will contact you if I feel is the right time for me to come to China. Also it might be helpful, if it is not asking too much, if you were to write a small article on how did you got there. Which steps where necessary. How did you find yourself. All this will be very valuable for people wishing to travel to Daoist places in China, and very interesting for the others. Best of luck with your practice, and with your projects of the new school. Pietro

I am ugly If you look at the end of my posts, in my signature, there is my website. Inside there you will find plenty of picture of me. Pietro

Hi Mal, I would strongly suggest that you buy The Taoist Experience: An Anthology (S U N Y Series in Chinese Philosophy and Culture) by Livia Kohn (Paperback - Nov 1993) as a second book. It is a very cool compendium of small taoist texts, from the whole historical period. At the end of each chapter Eva suggests some extra reading. Practically in all those readings there is at least one or two that has just been taken from the Taoist Experience. I was in fact going to suggest it as a side text to keep while we are reading the history of Taoism. Similarly another good one is: Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook (Shambhala Dragon Editions) by Thomas Cleary (Paperback - Jul 30, 1991) Cleary has often been criticised for not being really "taoist" in his choise of texts, and in his translations. But this anthology is really good. So, those are my "first" suggestions. Mostly because those suggestions contain material that will always be useful as you are trying to get a rounder understanding of taoism. All the others really depend if you want to go deeper into this or that aspect of taoism, and I honestly don't know enough of what you would want, so I don't want to suggest you to buy books that then you might read a bit and then find uninteresting. Pietro

You know, I really can't believe that that was the real reason why he left. I always thought he just got tired. I saw his getting angry only once, with Ron. And that was the time when Ron stopped changing name EVERY time he was writing but wticked with his latest one... what eventually became Ron. And Ron said something along the lines "AND I HAVE MAGICALLY BEEN TRANSFFORRMED INTO A NICE GUY". or similar. After he left he came back one time, and then left again, which is why I also thought it must have just been a change in interests. Did the email bounce said something interesting? Can we use his email to make a google search? I have already tried s.biel and steven biel but with no success.

As some of you might remember last year in summer I went through New York. I was on my way to the Mind and Life Summer Institute. A one week meeting at the Garrison Institute, near new york. At this meeting meditators were meeting neuroscientists, with the specific intent to study meditation. No real such study was done over there, in that week, but we mostly were there to hear the results, discuss, and start new projects. The projects were then to be done in other parts of the country-ies. People who are there can also apply to get some fundings for their own ideas. The meditator that were there were mostly buddhists. The mind and life institute has been set up by the dalai lama, and as such it is natural that it had first attracted buddhist meditator. More than that they are focusing themselves to contemplative practices. But is already a huge gathering with hundred of people, many researchers, some great meditation teachers. Some academics. Some people who do yoga, tai ji, and so on. And it will give you a very good overview of the current state of the research in meditative practices. With results from work done all over the world. The Mind and Life Summer Institute will happen this year as well. It is again at the Garrison Institute, between the 6-12 of June, 2008. So, I write this post to encourage people over here to apply. I think many people over here could go there, have a good time, enjoy the place, and bring a lot of good ideas to them as well. The deadline for the application is 28 of february, 2008. (Attention, this year february has 29 days, so it is NOT the last day of february!). And I think they are very strict in those deadlines. For me it was very interesting, and the occasion to meet some really interesting people, among them Harold Roth, that has already been discussed in this community; Joan Halifax, the Roshi of the Upaya community in Santa Fe.

we should contact him. Maybe he moved away from the whole HT too, and now he would find a new house in here.

Dear Buddy, you might be under the illusion that I owe you something for having studied with Bruce Kumar Frantzis before me. Please let me dispel that illusion. I don't care a rat's ass. If you say bullshit, if I don't agree with what you say, if I think you are wrong I WILL get you on that. And with my voice too. If this is a problem get on your mat and dissolve, or pay an analyist and whine about how I am not giving you the respect that you deserve. You heard the people protesting for you being nasty and vidious, and making ad hominem respons. Well, I don't give a damn about that too. I take only truth as my guide. I tell you more, I corrected Bruce if when he was saing nonsense. Yes, during lesson. And guess what? He didn't gave a damn. He enquired to know more, and then he remained corrected because I knew more on that particular topic. If you think that the fact that you have studied with Bruce this or that century would stop me from an honest, open, discussion with you here you are under a huge illusion. Huge indeed. Now let's get to business. In Bruce organisation there is no due respect to older students. We don't do Bai Shi. Have you forgotten that? You keep on trying to treat me like this was some sort of confucianist organization. You surely did not learn this from Bruce, so you are trying to sneak in some material you got elswhere. Off you go, on that. NO, I don't care about any -isms. You don't care about any -ism when is yourself behaving, then you expect other people to follow a confucian-ism attitude? Get this contraddiction straight. "I am not interested in MA, and Bruce is not (that) interested in them either." No, Bruce can't DO then any more and they are not as lucrative as teaching slackers lazy shit. Whatever, he doesn't teach it. Deal with it. "It is a game. The time for martial arts has ended. It has ended with the revolt of the boxer. And sometimes you get tired of a game, especially if you are doing a lot of dissolving. Especially (2!) if your body has been ruined to the point that you cannot play it well anymore. Do you want to crucifix him for this." Not at all. But I've known him for a lot longer than you. YOU brought this on him. I brought this on him? What are you babbling about? I know how and by whom the current situation evolved. I'm trying my hardest to not break his rice bowl. Look, stop the veiled threats. With me they don't work. If you have something to say do it, if not Shut The Fuck Up (That's what STFU stands for, right?). Look, I'm trying my be to not be a bad guy anymore. But Good luck with that, I can see you'll need a lot of it. But honestly I don't care. Say what you have to say, or shut up. See above. ask Kumar about Jane. Then get back to me. Until then, STFU about it. Why should I enter in the private relation of two other human beings. I was making an example to show how the practices can be very helpful. But I guess the point was made and I don't need to find other examples. If your not being a bad guy means that you write in a polite way, suggesting me to act in an unethical way, you probably need to go back to grade school... sifu. What if I told you Bruce told someone else something different entirely? Again the veiled threats. Saying and not saying. Sure Bruce stories are not always the same. The point is if those differences are cosmetic differences or fundamental. How about the fact that those who knew Liu better say something different? That knew Liu better... interesting. Look, Alan was in Beijing, and has asked about Liu, too. What came out was that Liu was a very well known in Beijing in the 50's and 60's as a Tai Ji person and as a taoist. Ask Alan, he'll give you the references. According to Alan: Bruce never said that Liu had no other students, Just that he and his spiritual brother where the only inside the door students. Do you deny that Bruce was formally adopted in Liu's family? That he got to spread Liu's ashes with Liu's son. It's hard to have a closer relationship that that. I can get deeper into this whole "revealing" thing, but it won't convince the converted. You can but you won't? See above. Quote a separate source other then Bruce. ... Quote a separate source other than Bruce. ... See above. ... Go to Beijing, ask Zhu Baojen, or the student's that Liu was supposed to not have. Ask Alan the references of people who can testify that Liu was a well known Taoist figure in Beijing. Pietro, What if you knew one of Bruce's top and most well known students committed a crime, say like when a dentist fucks one of his patients while they are asleep. Or a therapist takes advantage of a patient. Something that could, under normal circumstances send that person to jail. Would you say (even if that person is well respected among your community still) that the training was effective? How about if it was all covered up from the top because it might have been able to be traced that far? Again the veiled threats. You know, I know quite a lot of the inside stories, and honestly I don't give a fuck. Let me clarify something. Some years ago there was a mathematician, who after having done some good work for science went to a south east asian countries, used his money to have a big house, and in this house he started raping, and fucking kids. The whole thing eventually exploded. Did this made the theorem he had discovered non vallid? Surely not. Because they stand on their own legs. Does the fact that the vatican has done all sort of nasty things, and covered them up, has any importance on the fact that Jesus was or wasn't the Christ? No, nothing. You see, I find Bruce teaching to be valid in itself. And to be of a taoist origin in itself. How could whatever has Bruce done in the past, influence this? It would be different if the teaching would advocate a behaviour that I would abhor. You know, the 4 taboo that taoist have regarding sex. Well, if inside the organization people after doing the practices would start to have a huge urge to do any of those, then I would worry. But do not confuse the fundamental-pragmatic value of a particular practice or teaching with a.) the modern, western ethics; b.) the history of a person; and of course c.) the politics necessary to keep an organisation alive. And Taoists were masters in this. Please don't presume to ever preach to me boy. I walk my talk always. You think you have nothing to learn from me. There are none so blind as those who will not see. indeed! EDITED TO PUT COLORS AS QUOTES DO NOT WORK WITH BUDDY (don't ask me why) Enter in the relation between you and Bruce? Why would I? But if you do ask me to deliver a message I will very surely do.

Yes, I always wondered what happened to Steven. Anybody knows?

Hello Brian, thanks for clarifying your position. Now it sounds like the problem is to find out which of us is the ignorant one, right? I mean, what I know, and what you know can't both be true at the same time. So one of us could be right, and the other must be wrong.

Hmm, so Buddy, do you think you can blow me off? Me in tree positions, you in san ti, no touching, and you forcing me to go away with your ch'i, intention, gaze, and whatever shit you can project through your mind in me? This was after all a traditional exercise of xing i, right? And you have developed the real gong fu. We put a limit of a couple of hours. So if you are not succesful in 2 hours we call it the day? (That's because I don't want to sign of myself being able to stand for too long, you know that I subscribe to the lazy taoists school) Pietro

That you were interested in martial art, and Bruce is now teaching Taoism. LATE ADDITION:sorry, long answer, but many things I meant to tell you from a long time. Buddy, honestly do you really care about Taoism. You care about enlightenment, you care about martial art. But for you if your techniques come from a buddhist school or a taoist school would be just as good. I don't care about Martial Arts. I don't enjoy them and I dissolved any reason for which I would care for them. But I love Taoism. I fell in love for it 20 years ago and I have never recovered. I went through phases in which I would read the classics, even though at the time I knew no one around who was interested. I went to Chia's school for other reasons, but also interested because it advertised Taoist Internal Alchemy. I found very little Taoism over there. Eventually I started looking for more and that's when I met Bruce. I am not interested in MA, and Bruce is not (that) interested in them either. It is a game. The time for martial arts has ended. It has ended with the revolt of the boxer. And sometimes you get tired of a game, especially if you are doing a lot of dissolving. Especially (2!) if your body has been ruined to the point that you cannot play it well anymore. Do you want to crucifix him for this. But he loves teaching meditation. You think it is all mumbo jumbo, but in the other thread you have someone who healed herself from a bad psychosis using meditation. Using the meditation that Bruce is teaching. Is this without value? Ask Jane. You might think it is not Taoist, and he is not the repository of a taoist lienage. But what does your teacher (with all due respect of him as a martial artist) know of Liu as a Taoist? In a time where if people knew you were a Taoist you could be dead the next day. Liu consistently teached to Bruce refering to the classics. He gave trasmission of the three texts (Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, I Ching) to Bruce. I know this because I am working through the Lao Tzu with Alan. Who has been discussing it with Bruce himself. If the practices were really Buddhist wouldn't Liu have taught Bruce using Buddhist sutra? If the practices were only from Buddhism, wouldn't we have only one version of what can be done? Instead we know that according to Buddhist you can "be in" 1-7 energy body, or in 2-8. But not in 1-8. While according to Taoists you can be in 1-8. Translating in lay man terms means that according to Buddhist you can't be fully awakened (8 energy body) and alive (first energy body). While for Taoist you can become an "immortal", that is someone who is 1-8 energy body. All those are just words for us who have not reached those hige levels, but they point to a consistent picture. When Liu was declared enlightened and he left for the mountains, my understanding is that he had (at least) already reached the "body of individuality" (which does exist in Chinese, just the translation is Bruce's). So why going there? And why after coming back teach Taoism, and not Buddhism? Look, this coming March, in Germany, he is teaching a workshop on the middle Tan Tien. As you know that has never been taught before. It is going to be a workshop in meditation. But the Middle Tan Tien is also in the 16 Nei Gung, so it should also be of interest to you. Why don't you come again? I would not have suggested this for another workshop, but this one looks interesting. Also in Taoism there are many referenced to "empty the heart" (which incidentally can also be translated as opening the heart). Working on the middle tan tien is a big thing. And is absolutely "taoist" work. So it is meditation, it is taoism, it is not martial arts, and it is not beginners work. Come and see if it is really all new age mumbo jumbo to fill up his swimming pool, or we are really working. I bought a few weeks ago a book called the attention revolution. This is a Buddhist book on keeping yourself focused for long period of time. It is in 10 lessons, and I think after all my training I might be at the level 2 or similar. It is a huge work. And I would say that it is really non -flow. I would also think that on this Bruce position would be quite in agreement (although I found some differences in how Bruce teaches about relaxing in being concentrated, which I could not find in the book at all). There is no "flow" school. And surely no "flow" school from which Bruce has to protect himself. Flow is an ancient experience, but psichologically a new concept. But there are similar teachings in Buddhism. If Bruce just wanted to fill his pocket wouldn't he try to make his teachings as different from "free" buddhism as possible? Don't know how much I will be able to post in the week end, Pietro

I thought you had families in Wales, and Ireland with their own little stone circle on the back of their house.