Pietro

Of course if you starve yourself, doing celibacy is easier. But is that the point. Generally you should avoid anything that is giving extra work to the gall bladder, as this adds to the sexual fantasies. Especially (raw) eggs are good to recover after an ejaculation, so they might not be good to keep the semen in. While maybe a bit of raw meat, with no spices added might not give too much extra work to the gall bladder. When I did my 100 days I was following very closely the Pitchford. You could also go and find out gandhi's diet. That was all organised to let him be celibate. But at what price! Good luck in any case. Pietro

Hello Jane, thank you very much for your thoughtful answer. I am sorry that there are not many people in this discussion board who are openly practicing and discussion Bruce's water method, and I find very interesting how your perception of what happens taking a vow, blockage wise, echoes mine. I hope you stick around, so I can keep on reading you and discussion with you. Pietro Funny how people can change their religion but hardly the way they approach their religion.

Very interesting topic. And I am surprised that it hasn't come out before. Somehow, after many years I reached the conclusion that there is a time for sharing and a time for keeping quite. Some people with which it ok to tell a bit more, and some people which which is better to be more vague. And generally some parts of one's experience that you can speak about and some part that you shouldn't. So, it all depends. If you don't share nothing it will burn inside you, and harm you. If you share too much you are leaking, like an incontinent, and will not cook anything. You will feel empty like a ghost. But then there was a christian saint who would share everything, but really everything, saying, I don't care if this brings me farther away from God. Because as I share it more people can reach it, and that is more important. Speaking about the people, I am just coming out of a small discussion on the other thread with Buddy. Interestingly at the end he decided he did not want to discuss with me. Claiming he was casting pearls before swines. What is ironic was that I was having the same sensation. So we were both casting our pearls (what we have developed) to the swines (each other), and we were both feeling that was not ok. Should we both have kept quite? But mostly I think of spiritual experience as a tree that grows. What is the flower of now, will become the branch of tomorrow, and the trunk of the next day. At the beginning you need to nurture it. Then you can share it with few, very selected people. And this can also help it grow. It can give you the necessary feedback to see the whole process from another point of view. And then eventually it becomes a strong experience that has taken roots in your everyday exeprience. And this is when you can speak about it, nearly freely. Nearly with everybody. Nearly in every occasion. So, yes I would agree that this community is a bit a protected space, but not so protected. Google indexes the content regularly. And writing in rime, in verse, in poetry, can sometimes be used to make sure that only the people who are inside a particular tradition, or who have shared a particular experience will understand. The other will just say: it makes no sense.

Be kind with yourself Max

ok, let's get it all in one: Bruce says so, he is consistent with his story, I am happy to believe him because his story is consitent, and I am learning. You are not. Quote me anyplace in the Taoist lexicon where these things are mentioned. Do you really think you can dissolve the energy of your body? Doesn't death quickly spring to mind in such an absurd occurrence? don't wander, stay on the point. You said you knew everything I knew, I asked you to describe 3 things I recently studied with Bruce, and you didn't. You getting the "advanced stuff" now so it shouldn't be long until you can beam your thoughts into my head. That way we can avoid all this typing. Would you be able to pick it up?

"You assume Bruce is teaching ... the same ol' stuff. Or seem to have heard about it only from third sources. This is why I say you don't know that." Again, you don't know what I know. Your comments are unfounded. "Yeah, Bill Ryan, he was at the workshop on using opening and closing in taoist meditation. Germany 2006. Ah...ok. That's all I need to know. Ok, so why don't you just ask Bill. Ask him if Bruce has been teaching new material. Material that you were never taught. Either directly or through any of your numerous contacts. If you mail me could you please cc. me? My gmail account is pietros (sorry for not spelling it out, but I try to avoid spiders). "...and correct practice is rooted in study of what you don't know. " Ask on the Yahoo Taoist Water Tradition about what I know and what my reputation is. You keep on confusing form for content. Before you expected people who have done meditation to "look" enlightened. What for me would be disgraceful and a shame for you seem to be a great honor. Now you use your reputation to back up your statements. Your statements and information should back up your statements. Reputation has nothing to do with that. You don't know what I know. Correct, I assume you don't know what Bruce is teaching for the first time. If you can prove me wrong I would love to stand corrected. It's Tripp.Ok. "At least in the sense that Liu either re-teached it to Bruce, or reorganised it, or sent Bruce to meet the person that would teach it to him. But I am very open to be corrected in any of this, if you have better information." Well, I do. You don't really want to know but here's a for instance. Gates came from Zhang Yizhung, a student of Wang Shujin. There's more but that's enough for you, you'll come up with some excuse not to believe it. Interesting, thanks. Don't be too rapid in jumping to conclusions about what I would do and what I wouldn't. Now, hasn't Bruce studied with Wang Shujin before studying with Liu? It's not my privacy, I'm an open book. It's so as to not gossip about others in public. In this (and only in this) we are quite similar. Pietro

"No, but can you prove that in the whole vast China this does not exist?" One cannot prove a negative. Since we agree that there is no "easy" way to prove that there is not this discipline already there, we have to use indirect ways. Who will just give us hints, but no definite answers. This until someone speaks with every practitioner, or we find (or Bruce tells us) someone else who knows this discipline we are left guessing out of this partial knowledge. Well, Bruce have been pretty consistent with his story about the standing practice. He has given to people different standing postures. You think he invented the whole thing up? That would make him both a genius and totally crazy. It seem harder to believe that than thinking that his story is actually true. "Do you assume to know everything that is there?" No, only more than you. Please describe me "fourth space". Also, how do you dissolve the energy of the whole body all at once? And finally, how do you use opening and closing to change your belief system. Thanks. "It is hard to prove that something does not exist. Practically impossible. How do you plan to accomplish this mighty task?" It's your task, not one I've taken on. See above. Hmm, no it's you who need to prove that it does not exist. I am absolutely happy with: we don't know, Bruce says so, and his teaching is consistent with his affirmation. I am not arguing anything more than that. "Plus Bruce has shown ..." " Maybe Bruce made this up. I answered this above. In any case if he is able to invent a whole field just like that I would be even more interested in working with him. "As such while it is hard to prove that this discipline does not exist, we can see that what Bruce says is consistent with the fact that he has been treating people with different postures." Treating people? Is it not a poor Doctor who cannot treat himself? He can walk. Could you after similar physical experiences? And generally how many chi gung doctors would be able to? (And let's not even speak about how many non chi gung doctors). "Well, senior, in Germany spring 2006, if I remember well, there was a course in standing meditation. The course included instructions on how to raise the energy so that it would raise the hands. We were also instructed how to lower the hands at the end of the standing practice. With the piece of advice that dropping them without dropping the energy would break the flow between the hands and the LTT. I have been practicing in this way ever since, and I can now raise the hands up to the heart in few minutes." Well junior, do you not need muscular contraction to do so? It is not the qi that does this but the yi telling the body what to do. Well senior, Bruce explained that there is a correct way to do this, and you claim this is not the one. He then went further explaining how this was done, and you claim this is not relevant from a physical point of view. Now my claim is that it does not matter what is going on from a physical point of view. Not in the context of this discussion. This discussion is only trying to ascertain if Bruce has made those things up. My claim is that since he backed off his first vague explenations with more detailed further explanations, he is actually showing that his teaching are internally consistent. And this by itself should rule in his favour. I also has followed his teaching and has found myself being better off. Yeah, this is not a double blind. But is all we have. Also, let's not confuse the western way of breaking up the human body with the eastern one. Or it will all become a huge mess. I can tell you that practicing following Bruce indications a) qualitatively different there is a sense of oneness of the human body that is maintained throught he whole experience, something that is just missing, If this makes no difference from a physical point of view this is irrelevant. This because those teaching are coming from a culture where the basic way to check if something is true or false is not the western scientific method. "Yes, the raising also uses the muscles, but it is less tiring than if I were just sticking my hands up. It is being pushed up by the energy. The only way in which I can describe the sensation is: imagine you put your hand in a basin with no water. You then start puring water in it. If you do nothing your hand will be submerged. But you can just "let the hand float". If you do this the hand will raise with the water." C'mon. You find it tiring to raise your hands? Your example is silly. Your hands will not "just float". Gravity will prevent that. Surely you've not found a way to circumvent the laws of physics. Your whole arm might float if you are submerged but otherwise... rolleyes.gif You don't find it tiring to stand with your hands up for long periods of time? I am sure many of your students do. And you are surprised that there are exercises that makes it feel more or less tiring? "Yes, you are using muscles but not only. And the water is giving you clear indications about how high you are to go before the energetic connection would be lost." Jeez. Water is intert. It's not "telling" you anything. Now you are being silly, childish, and arguing for the sake of arguing. If I say that a thermometer is telling me that the temperature is 37, I don't mean that litterally! "And if I bring down the hands it does feel the sense of unity in the body is gone. It is hard to describe, but I will be happy to show you in my body what I mean." I understand perfectly what you are imagining. Suggestion is a powerful tool. As is neuro-linguistic programming, which Brice has admitted to studying (and allegedly not using). Don't know what you talking about. Bruce uses NLP all the time. He just does this in the way to convey information. Not in the content. "Yeah, don't tell me, I am arguing with someone who doesn't even know logic!" Logic? Nothing of what you describe uses logic. It uses alleged subjective experience. Words have actual meanings. I was refering to you asking me if I have ever heard of someone else backing off what Bruce sais about being there a whole technique of people being treated through standing postures. Since we both agree that not finding someone else is not enough to prove that the claim is false I just could not find a reason for you to ask that question at all. So I assumed you must think that indeed that was enough of a proof. So you did not know logic. Now you have shown that you do know logic... but now your question ("Can you cite me any other source for this claim?") becomes irrelevant.

No, but can you prove that in the whole vast China this does not exist? Do you assume to know everything that is there? It is hard to prove that something does not exist. Practically impossible. How do you plan to accomplish this mighty task? Plus Bruce has shown that there are different postures by giving to people personalized postures accorind to their conditions. At our workshop we were about 75 (so I have been told by Mountain, I didn't count us) and there were very few people who had the same posture. We were also explained en passant the 4 postures that are used for problems with the ears. As such while it is hard toprove that this discipline does not exist, we can see that what Bruce says is consistent with the fact that he has been treating people with different postures. Well, senior, in Germany spring 2006, if I remember well, there was a course in standing meditation. The course included instructions on how to raise the energy so that it would raise the hands. We were also instructed how to lower the hands at the end of the standing practice. With the piece of advice that dropping them without dropping the energy would break the flow between the hands and the LTT. I have been practicing in this way ever since, and I can now raise the hands up to the heart in few minutes. Yes, the raising also uses the muscles, but it is less tiring than if I were just sticking my hands up. It is being pushed up by the energy. The only way in which I can describe the sensation is: imagine you put your hand in a basin with no water. You then start puring water in it. If you do nothing your hand will be submerged. But you can just "let the hand float". If you do this the hand will raise with the water. Yes, you are using muscles but not only. And the water is giving you clear indications about how high you are to go before the energetic connection would be lost. And if I bring down the hands it does feel the sense of unity in the body is gone. It is hard to describe, but I will be happy to show you in my body what I mean. Yeah, don't tell me, I am arguing with someone who doesn't even know logic!

Ah, the indulgence of youth. I know Kumar is claiming that he's on his second decade of teaching. But where did it come from. From Liu? If you're happy to think that then I'm happy to have you do so. "But I disagree that you "know what Bruce teaches". Well how can you? You don't know what I know. You assume Bruce is teaching ... the same ol' stuff. Or seem to have heard about it only from third sources. This is why I say you don't know that. "This is not said by me, but by Bruce himself, by Alan, and confirmed by Bill who was there." I know what Kumar says. I don't think I know your teacher but I'd be happy to have him show me his advancement. Bill? Bill Ryan? If so, what do you know of Bill's advancement? I might be shocked about Bill. Yeah, Bill Ryan, he was at the workshop on using opening and closing in taoist meditation. Germany 2006. "I did notice that while doing spiraling my body started moving faster, less predictably than before." Less predictably? Do you want your body to be out of your control and unpredictable? I found more access to my body and thereby more predictability. Nice game of words. There are (at least) two forms of being unpredictable. One happens when the body have convulsions, this is unpredictable, and of course I am not refering to that. The one I refer to is when you let the body follow the energy. As such the body is less predictable from the common everyday consciousnes. Yet the movements are still clean, well defined, and generally you don't "bump into thigs", as you would do if you simply let the body move randomly. I'll be happy to show you what I mean, if and when we meet. Provided you don't expect me to use that in combat. As I said, I am no martial artist. "Bruce say it is. Who is right? I suspect I am the least person who can say. But my suspect is that it is. Yes, even if you are my senior, and your students can reproduce it all, and not because of this they are better martial artists." Can you tell me someone of the current crop that can show me? Bruce can't any longer. No, but you might want to ask Alan, my teacher, and he might be able to help you on this. But you are right that the focus of the school is no longer martial arts. I can feel my enitre body without this "fourth space." The meat and bone of martial arts is correct practice not some pseudo-etheric nonsense. ...and correct practice is rooted in study of what you don't know. Not trashing it, out of contempt. "I just don't see none of us in the position to judge right now." Well, you're not in a position to judge perhaps. But you don't know about me. Or my contemporaries. Ask Bernie Langan. Sure, if I ever see Bernie Langan, which I never met, I shall ask him if Buddy Trip is in the position to judge Bruce teachings, even the one he has never been exposed to. "Your younger brother in the school." Have you jumped ahead of your teacher? Did he bring you to Bruce? You would be my nephew but I am Yizong now. Hmm, I was studying with Bruce before meeting Alan, if this is what you mean. "But what about the new stuff." Ah, theres' the rub. Where did it come from. You think it's from Liu. Yes, I do (apart Dragon & Tiger). At least in the sense that Liu either re-teached it to Bruce, or reorganised it, or sent Bruce to meet the person that would teach it to him. But I am very open to be corrected in any of this, if you have better information. "So, no, I am quite happy to see them being "normal" not holy or enlightened human beings. But is that what you are trying to become, and why you left Bruce?" Well we can't go here because that would bring up others peccadilloes. Normal is a relative term and there are things about others that you don't know. Not my idea of normal. Ok, I'll respect your necessity for privacy. "When I shall be perfect I will start to judge other people's progress." Well good on you. My bullshit detector is set lower than yours. fair enough My teacher is Kumar's senior, not because of that, but because I'm interested in quality. I know people who studied with Liu's KF brothers and there are differences in the stories. I've spoke with those whom Bruce has been more candid with than he is usually with his paying customers. I'll be very interested in knowing those different stories. But I do reserve the right to decide by myself which to consider more genuine. But the bottom line is if you like it than it's fine for you. I have reservations that if you are being sold some "advanced" level if you haven't got the basics down, that you get what you want to hear rather than what you need. If you get to the States I'll give a free lesson and we can see who knows what. Or not. Thank you very much. I will happily accept your free lesson when I'll be in the same city.

Nice to meet you then. In this thread, if I remember well, I have claimed, following what Bruce said, that standing is part of a complete chinese chi gung system, that comprised about 200 postures, that alone are able to open up the whole body. Have you got any problem with this claim? I also said that the hands should not just be stuck up, but the energy should rise them. And as such it might take many months, after you have learned how to rise the energy to have your energy being at heart level. Even if you practice hours every day. Have you got a problem with this claim? Your turn, sir.

Thanks Buddy, I know you are my senior. But I disagree that you "know what Bruce teaches". What Bruce teaches those days is different from what he use to teach before. This is not said by me, but by Bruce himself, by Alan, and confirmed by Bill who was there. You might know what Bruce teaches in spiralling. And still I have never been to two of his lessons which were equal so far. So you might discover new things. And how much is this information going to become skill I suppose it depends on the practitioner. But how much is this skill going to be useful in martial arts I really can't say. I am no martial artist. I have no interest in martial arts. I did notice that while doing spiraling my body started moving faster, less predictably than before. And so I suspect that this should be useful in martial arts. You say it isn't (and you should know since this is an old technique). Bruce say it is. Who is right? I suspect I am the least person who can say. But my suspect is that it is. Yes, even if you are my senior, and your students can reproduce it all, and not because of this they are better martial artists. And this is still speaking only about spiralling which I know you have done with Bruce, back in the good old days. But what about the new stuff. The "esoteric" "cool sounding" stuff that Bruce is teaching now. Is "fourth space" (now doesn't that sound cool, and very esoteric!), the ability to feel the whole body not going to be useful at all. Even though we have been told they are the meat and bone of high level martial arts? I would be surprised. Maybe I should become a high level martial artist to see if it would help me. Or maybe you should try to learn it to see if it would help you. I just don't see none of us in the position to judge right now. Your younger brother in the school, Pietro P.S. I have 3 exams, 1 conference, and 2000 km, between now and the 29th of November, so forgive me if I don't answer you straight away. I think they are doing alright. I have seen myself being able to make peace with old things which were torturing me for years. The reason why I am not interestd in martial arts, for example, is that I dissolved the memories of when I was bullied as a kid. And the interest in MA left, just like that. You see, one of the things that really attracted me in Bruce system was that Bruce, and people in general did not seem to try to pretend they were those holy people. So, no, I am quite happy to see them being "normal" not holy or enlightened human beings. But is that what you are trying to become, and why you left Bruce? When I shall be perfect I will start to judge other people's progress. For now my plate is already quite full.

Hello Buddy Trip, what do you want to see? A practice I have learned 2 weeks ago and my daily instructor (Alan Peatfield, I am sure you know him), have advised me not to practice too much, for my nervous system is still not ready for it? (you can email him for confirmation) You pick easy fights, do you? In any case if we ever meet (Bruce is going to teach a workshop on the middle tan tien next spring in Germany, and I am not aware he has taught that publicly before, although I might be wrong) I am happy to show you what I learned and get any feedback you might have.

Then why not going claim by claim and dissect what is there and what is fantasy and what we simply (with our combined knowledge) do not know. I am sure we all can greatly benefit from this exercise. Especially so if it is done publicly.

This is not fully true. As we were in Germany we were also given instructions on how to move the body from the spiraling energy. The effect was that the whole body started to twist and move in different ways. The whole form started to become alive. Depending on which energy ballw e were using to direct the energy the body would move fast or slow, coordinate or uncoordinate, following the form, or doing something else all together. It was also personal to the person. For me when the spirals in my head were in charge my body moved VERY fast. Very fast indeed. And I was very suprised that it would do so without pumping on anyone else. When I was using the other spirals it the effect was slower, more unccordinated and so on. Of course those differences are part of the distance that I will need to cover int he next years before I have fully integrated spiraling in my being. He also told us: "this is how I got to become so fast and unpredictable...". Of course at the time he was standing 6 hours a day, so he had time to practice spiraling quite a lot. But he also added: "...I wish there was more to it, but that's just it". As such spiraling is related to MA. This is how Bruce became great in martial arts.

Bruce teaches spiraling. It is one of the main not basic courses of his schools. Not so much as for the external movements but for the internal componenet that then makes every joint in your body start to make spirals. We just had a workshop in Germany. But he only teaches spiraling once every 3 or 4 years. Most students tend to take the spiraling coure 3 or 4 times (yes that means 9 to 12 years commitment to the school) before starting to a) getting it, have a strong enough downflow of energy to be able to practice it safely. If you look at this video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3504318518881362299 I believe (but no one told me and I am no martial artist) that what Bruce is doing here is spiraling. See how he twists his body around the opponent. How he circles around the opponent hand. That's the external expression of the internal component called spiraling.

We all speak from experience Agharta. Most of us have tried vegetarinanism for some times. Or, worse, had thir girlfriend being vegetarians, or *horror* vegan. I agree with all you said, but I would add that goats and *vegetarians* animals, are not vegetarians at all. They have some 5 stomach, in which they culture bacteria. The bacteria digest the grass, and they digest the bacteria, which contains plenty of protein

And eating Lins? In some tribes (native american if I remember well) once one of them would die they would take its bones and make soup with it. Then the whole tribe would eat the soup, and they would say, my ancestors are inside me.

While we are having our scales raising in the reptilian discussion, Taoist81 came out with a nice little gem: I think this is very interesting and I would love to hear more on the subject. To the point of starting a new thread and inviting everybody who knows about Taoist exercises to differentiate what is real from what is illusory to share at least one of them, and a pointer to where we can find more. For example Bruce use to start the topic on pornography asking what is the difference between sex and pornography, and the difference is that one is real and the other is not. One is a real experience involving real human beings, the other are images, and stories about other people (often fictionary) who are having that experience. The same difference that there is between reading about riding a bike, and actually riding a bike. But this is an example of a difference. It is not an exercise. Anybody knows actual exercises? Taoist81? Taomeaow? Wayfarer64? 林愛偉 (joy of cut and paste)? Yoda, Smile...? And any other Tao Bum. And please stay on topic, and don't start all speak about pornography, we have plenty of separate threads on that. Just resurrect them if you need to scratch that itch. Also, if you know similar exercises from other traditions, Buddhism, Christianity, NLP. Share them too. Just clarify the tradition, and possibly the context in which it is usually taught.

Thnaks, very appreciated. Pietro

Thanks, I wouldn't be able to survive most of it. My limit. I might give a shot to your master thesis if it might contain anything related to Bushman, and hopeing you kept yourself on common ground a bit more. But essentially that's why I asked you about the other books. Pietro

Chuang Tzu translated by Victor Mair

Thank you Drew, I read your article, but I had a sudden problem when you started speaking about quantum physics. I am sorry about it, but my whole body itches and fills with red spots, as soon as I hear the q. word outside of the sacred container of a physical institute. I hope you will understand. Please, I would like not to buy books from Amazon, only to discover that they exacerbate my already dangerous condition. Will I be at ease with your other references or are they filled of the q. word also? Thanks again, Pietro

Hello Jane, are you able to take a vow? I am not saying being able to take it is good or bad. But I noticed that from when I started the water method (which I actually consider the taoist path, as opposed to the neo-taoist or tao-buddhist path) I have been more and more unable to keep to vows. It is as if a vow would create a blockage in me, and as soon as I went inside to dissolve my blockages, that blockage would go as well. The result of this was that I soon started to lose my ability to stick to strict disciplines. A side effect of this was that I was enjoying my life much more. One of the first disciplines that started leaving was my ability to be celibate. Gone. Now, when you make a vow, you are not always right. Gandhi took the vow at some point never to drink (cow) milk. When he was very ill he was forced to take (goat) milk, breaking the spirit of his vow (not the letter) to remain alive. He said he did it because he wanted to see the end of the political struggle (meaning that, in another circumstance, he was willing to die not to break a vow). Now Gandhi is a particular kind of anal retentive type. He follows the way of vows. Quite as opposite to what a left hand taoist as you can go. But to follow a way where there are no vows, and take no vows, or to follow a way where there are vows, and you follow them, in both cases you don't break any vow. Now when BK met Liu, Bruce spirit was vow-wise in a cage. E-v-e-r-y single teacher he had asked him to take vows so he would teach him. As you know, Liu solved all this by formally adopting Bruce (you can teach to your kid whatever you want), re-teach him everything Bruce already know (thus freeing him from all the other vow), and just keeping this one. You know all this, but some of the other Tao Bums don't, so it is worth repeating. Bruce could just have ignored those vows, but he didn't. Why? Now those vows are not taken lightly, and not followed because they are right. They are mostly followed because once you have taken it you have placed your spirit in a cage by your own words. In a sense they are structuring the spirit by putting limit to it. I know, it is as opposite as the water method can go. But the water method, as you certainly know, insists that you reach inside yourself for a deep understanding about what is moral and ethical for you, and what is not. For Bruce not to break his word is obviously important. I am raising all this because I have reason to think that Bruce himself does not fully agree with that vow, now. I don't know for sure, but I heard him saying in a lesson: "and when you make a vow to a dead man, that's it. You are stuck with the vow". And this is part of Bruce personal morality and philosophy. You seem to have a different one. And this is why my question: are you able, Jane, to take a vow? Not an "I think I'll do this because it makes sense out of what I know now"-type of decision, but a vow. Take it, and stick to it. And my second question: if you are not (or equivalently, if you see no virtue in vows at all), were you able before starting the water method? Because Bruce is, he is obviously doing it, and all his years of dissolving didn't impede his ability to keep his word.

How very interesting. Can you give me a reference for this so I can explore the topic further. I have an incredible attraction for the bushman culture/way of living. Up to the point that I have often considered if it was possible to invent some sort of "holiday resort" (I know it makes you cringe the simple idea, but I can't think of anything else which is also feasible). That is a place where people would go there, live naked, live EXACTLY like the bush man. Maybe asking the bushman to teach them/us. Right now the problem with the bushman is that their culture is evolving, while the law protects them but not the culture. If you are a bushman you are allowed to hunt in a huge area. An area where normally people are not allowed to go as is a Botswana national park. There are all sort of problems already with this situation, because the area have diamonds, so there is all sort of lobbies that are trying to force the Bushman in camps, "for their own good". But then there is another point, and that is: it is ok, for the bushman to go hunting if they do it with the traditional weapons. But now they are using rifles. And this will eventually unbalance the ecosystem. So my idea is that the protection should not be with the bushman, but with their way of life. And anyone who wanted to live like that could do it. They had to learn, they were not allowed to bring anything a bushman would not have, and they could stay there for as long as they wish. Hello Luke, I think there are plenty of scientific results out there on how homosexuality is nearly always not coming from education. For example the hormonal bath in which the fetus is grown seems very important. But the composition of that "bath" depends on many factors, some that are not genetic, and still are not from education. For example if the fetus have female twins (the only I can think right now, but I am sure there are others). Also there is a population in an island in the pacific (the reference is for "Guardians of the Flute" - Amazon), where every boy gets to give oral sex to older boys, drink their semen to make the magic of become real men happen. When the older boy becomes a man and get married he stops that practice, and when the younger boy becomes older (after puberty) he starts with the younger ones of his tribe. So here you have a tribe of people who all have had homosexual experience for many times during many years. And then eventually they stopped. Some people would claim that after such beginning those boys would all grow up homosexual. Well, according to this anthropological report the percentage of homosexual among the adult community is the same as in other cultures. Showing that even such environment is not conducive toward homosexuality.

1) I am not saying what I believe, because I have no experience in the field, so I am simply repeating what Bruce said. What Bruce said is not that it is not possible for a gay to become immortal. He didn't even say that it was impossible. The question was simply never asked. Nor is the water method so much focused on immortality. The aim is more in trying to become a human being, and this is considered quite an achievement already. He did say that the energetic structure gets damaged, and that IF the person gets political power he is a danger for others. Full stop, do not add your own fears, interpretation, problems, taboo, to that. And if you do, don't get me in. Also note, a lot of things damage the energetic structure, porn, lying, breaking your word, consciously harming someone, excessive discussion on the tao bum , Smile would add "eating meat". And of course the age old classics: killing, raping and torturing. Do they damage it more, less, is one not possible to heal and the other yes? For example I know he has no vow to teach people who did quite terrible things. And since he was in China after the revolution he had to help people from both side of the torture table. Yet he has no vow stopping him to help a torturer. Why so? Is his vow stopping him from teaching anyone who is gay now, or someone who have had omosexual experiences? What if someone was raped? Can he not practice? In short there are a lot of obscure parts in all this. Keep them obscure, keep guessing, admit what you don't know. But do not assume that is one or the other. If it is important go to a meeting with him and ask. Also Cameron, in the other thread you asked about sex with animals. According to what we are told there are only 4 things that are absolute taboo for taoists. To those you add your personal. The things that are permitted, but you just don't feel like doing. The 4 taboos are: 1) alive people and dead people: No! 2) human beings and animals: No! 3) adults with kids: No! 4) men and men: No! Those are the four, and for what I know he only has a vow concerning one. Probably the other being considered rare enough not to require a vow. In any case everything else is ok. Nothing about fidelity. Nothing about married people. Nothing about orgies. And nothing about incest(!). Those are quite weird. I remember he (he being Bruce, of course) telling us that respect to taoist moral standards, the osho community is a bunch of right wing conservatories. I did ask about anal sex, because is something I like, and I was told that historically is was not practiced much simply because of hygenical reasons. Yet I like 林愛偉 explenation of what is going on. I mean, the more a woman is feminine the more I want to fuck her on the back. And generally the more a woman have anal sex, the less feminine I feel her. It might very well be that the reason of all this desire is that I feel I lack yin energy, and I feel that is a very direct way of getting it. it could be a form of vampirising And of course in the topic (come er cacio sui maccheroni) goes the lao tzu-chuang tzu dialectic. The dialectic between right hand taoists, and left hand taoists. With the right hand being the one who are naturally celibate, and the left hand the one who are naturally poligamous or naturally orgiastic. And on this, really, to each his own.