Pietro

We are even on the effect not on the social possibilities to get it. It is so fucking different, and you know that! But getting a girl through PU gives you untimed real sex, not the fake one that hookers give you. Beside, if I had to pay a girl for all the hours I fuck her it would empty my wallet. You know how much does a girl ask for the whole night? I am a taoist, I am not one of those fast in, fast out, click clack, guys out there. I think I clarifed above how that claim becomes a claim about ethical values. I fully support your diet (for what I have seen so far), but don't use it to pontify what is good and what is not for me, pardon us male. The cow goddess? I thought you followed Circe!

What I claim and what I repeat is that for most beta men the need of sex is so bad that it is not trivial by any standard. That hookers (at least the one available for a normal wallet in our wetsern world. I don't know about others) will not satisfy that. That yes we need oxytocin. That porn does not release enough of it (or at all, since oxytocin have as a side effect to cause temporary amnesia, and I have that after a good kiss, but not after a wank). That in the light of all this people who need sex are doing the right thing to learn PUA, and most techniques to solve their problem. Now you come, and sais that you have the sexual desires of a man, had similar experiences as a man regarding being frustrated, you are so similar to a man that you react in the same way, that you have a de facto 'same point of view' so now you can see (obviously better than me, since you teach me) what is trivial for me (and for other men) and what it is not, and because of this you define what my ethical values should be. If you had such a similar experience you would come to similar conclusions. The fact that you do not makes me doubt our presumed similarity. Honestly, you are out there, and flapping your hands, hopeing to fly. We are different, you can't define what is important for me and what is not. You simply haven't got a clue how it is to be forced to pay for some bad, timed, sex. While as a woman you can have all the sex you want. Male suicide is double female one. Men tend to rape more, too (I am sure your coven-sisters will agree on this). Why do you think this is so?

Might have been horrible, and you have my full sympathy. This still does not give you permission to define my ethical values. beating off to porn does not release oxytocin, and honestly I have tried hookers a couple of times and always left with a bad taste, figuratively speaking. Boy goes into a pub: -a lemon juice, as I just had my first blow job. -A lemon juice? Here's a whisky! Offers the house. -No, no if the lemon doesn't dispell the bad taste, nothing will.

Hmm, what country do you come from? That would clarify some. It's true that the french revolution brought a blood bath. But it is also true that through it, through Napoleone after a lot of ideas got their way into Europe, which led years later in more democratic countries. Agreed that Gandhi was a control freak (as many vegetarians). But I don't agree that all he got was an india pakistani war. He got a lot more, from the awakening of a whole nation to an objective to militar freedom, and so on. Have you noticed how the internet follow exactly the same percentage, with few sites getting the vast majority of traffick? It's not conspiracy, it is a positive feedback effect . Are you sure that it is human evilness over there too, and not just some natural law in effect? This is why thinking is important. You act within the natural laws, not against them. But you know all this, you're a taoist

But if a woman was feeling as a man, she would still would have the whole world reacting to her as to a women, which would make a huge influence on her world view. It is not just the horniness, not just the frustration, but the sensation that nothing short of rape or suicide would solve it definitly. And the second more than the first. A terrible corner to which your modified woman with male sensations would never be pushed. And if she was, like inside a marriage, she knew she could still walk away. It is a bit the difference between a person who is fasting and a person who is hungry. The physical sensation might be similar but the psychological torture has all sort of interesting colors that the first lacks. Beside inside most celibate marriages you still have hugs and actions of affection which (you teach me) release oxytocine. Not all the beta have that luck.

I have met many witches. Either in Brighton or in Glastonbury. As in al path you have both people who are honest seekers and new agers. Being a tradition who has been severely cut there are many influences that are not pure (meaning historically pure, ot ethically pure), and people who apply things from other traditions. One example is the 'law of the three' which I don't think was originally there. I even suspect it might come from a wrong translation of the 6th line of the 6 hexagram of the i-ching conflict done in the 18th century. Another is that in some old spell they would, for example burn a candle while meditating all the time on something. Now they might burn the candle without the (hard work) of the 4 hours long meditation. Said that I also met some really good and competent people. I remember a friend of mine who was once introduced to the dalai lama, who asked what he was doing in the astral plane and then told him how he thought what he was doing was good, and should be continued and passed on. And speaking about buddhism, for example, you might find pagans who are now integrating some buddhist practices in their meditation, bringing the concept of no ego to paganism, which was absolutely not there historically. And again I remember a guy in Brighton, a short and hairy guy, quite, but easy to laugh, very respected in that community who have the energy of an oak. When he walks near you it just gives the energetic sensation as if an oak was passing by. And yes, I heard they are more sexually active but I wasn't introduced to their practice in this domain. Nor were I willing to change my path for exploring it.

Neither Gandhi nor revolutionaries took this stance or their accomplishments would have reached nothing. Remember what happened in the France Revolution. Eventually the people said: fine WE are the nation and WE are going to decide. We risk that a lot of blood might be spread but if the only other solution is ecological collapse... unfortunately most revolutions are good in destroying and not so good in building, and this is why I am so in favor of people discussing and looking for alternatives. If we don't have alternatives if we were in power, what good would it be to get the power.

COMPLIMENTS! Mantis, you are the man!

Thanks for the interesting story. Of course mice and human beings are quite different. At least in most cases. Second the genotypical distance and the phenotypical distance can be quite different. In other words you can have something that are very close at the cause level and very different at the effect level. You can induce a tiny variation in the gene and have an animal have an extra pair of legs, this does not make the animal with the extra pair of legs be 'similar' to the animal with the normal pair of legs. Because the distance at the genetic leve is tiny but the distance at the phenotypical level is huge. Some years ago they were discussing if they were to expand human rights to primates too, after all 97% (or more, I don't remember) of the genetic material is in common. SO they said, shouldn't we provide them with 97% of our rights? A scientis asked? Banana have 50% of genetic material in common with human beings. Should we give them 50% of our rights? Beside all this when did you said that your diet also induced variations in your nose? Sorry, you are still not a man. Pietro

In Italy they are probably cheaper. It really depends onthe market. And really the difference between a one night and 1 hour is HUGE! In any case I don't buy that a women in your diet is "similar" to a man of any age. Too many things are different. As such I cordially throw in the the rubish bin your claim about how important or not is sex for men. Respectfully let's move on. Pietro

I heard that story. Can you give me a reference. I have been looking for it quite some time. People in PD are known for having stronger sex drive. What is a wiki marriage? A marriage where anyone can come and change things?? Thanks Yes, the yoghurt with honey is top of my eating list here. The try the rest. I tried some shellfish raw, fresh just taken in Dublin and I had a resurgeon of a meditation experience 2 hours later. Something as intense as after the last Bruce workshop, so I am very interested. Problems is finding all this organic. Gosh it is even hard to find them grass fed. off in the sun.

How long have you been in this diet? I am on my fourth year of PD and I find myself better every day, except for the teeth. But I don't eat much (or any) shellfish. I mostly eat raw muscle meat, now about 400 gr a day. About 5-6 days a week. I suppose we need to be reeducated about what parts of an animal would you eat, and how. So, have you got a straw for drinking an animal brain or you just bite the head? P.S. I am going for 1 week on holiday in greece. I will have to stop my PD, not to get very acidic-alcaline unbalanced. If you have suggestions on how to continue as a caveman I would greatly appreciate. I might try to check it in the next day, as I arrive to Athens.

Yeah, I got a bit carried away. Very confusing. I was going to ask you for the measurements to sustain your claim, but now it seems you denied your claim yourself... The testosterone of a very old men is not that high at all. A middle age pastor, friend of mine. Hookers cost a lot and what they give is no where near the level of a 1 night stand. I speak from experience. I suppose, I am starting to develop a style.

well, it should include a diet part and a sexual part. Showing the variety of diets that taoists follow, some of the reasons. And of the sexual practices. Hacking life?

I reckon now I have the time to answer. Is air important? Is money important? Is sex with no higher chackra connection important? when you don't have it, it becomes. I am sure you read the ethical slut. In one passage the authors (two women) say that the book is intended both for men and for women. In another they go as far as saying that any person with some basic social skill is able to have some sex if they want it. This the point of view of two women living in San Francisco. I remember reading this passage to a collegue of mine. A bright computer scientist. A very popular guy who always got invited in many parties. I wish I took a video of his face when I read it. It said it all. The position can be reassumed with the age old question, asked from ordinary guys to PUA: "If ordinary guys get laid why do I need all this information?". The answer to that question is a wake up call for men. A battle cry. If you, as a women, without having direct, embodied experience of what it is like to have a male body while starving for months and months, if not years, without ordinary sex, can't get it I really cannot add much. But do consider one thing, in western society male suicide is doubles than female suicide. We have different bodies. Male has about 10 times testosterone than women. For women the desire for sex is driven by a whole lot of hormones. In male the hormonal soup is mostly all there, but it is just irrelevant respect to the strength of testosterone. In a book I am reading (can't remember the title now, sorry) they gave as an error to a female high school teacher 10 times the correct amount of testosterone. That is around the amount men have. She was so unable to handle the erotic feeling that she would run in the toilet to finger herself between classes. When she went back to the doctor and the error was corrected she reported: "Now I can understand men". Maybe you could find a diet that would decuplicate your testosterone. Stay for 1 year with no sex (but you are allowed to masturbate, provided you ejaculate too), and then report us how you feel. There was a time when men had the possibility to have sex quite easily. Either through prostitution or through marriage. AT the time there was no rape charge inside marriage. I am not saying this is good, but I am just observing how things were. There were also all sort of other ways in which male would get outsource their sexuality. Methods that I will not describe not to risk this forum to be closed. Slowly those possibilities were closed. And behind every closure there were good reasons. At least good reasons in many/some/or most cases. Now people don't marry. Marriage does not imply sex and more and more male find themselves holding their kids yet to be born every night. Year after year. Feminism was really important, and I don't complain against it. But I do feel that it was very unbalanced. And under the heading of an "equal" society a series of inequalities have taken place. Some men tried to respond to this. Starting from Bly to Moore, and others, now to Deida. And I was wondering, but when are men going to go on the streets? Men were discussing in "for men only" internet forums. Women went on the streets, closed down "male only clubs" in the Britain. Protested, burned bra (they have my full support in this). Shouted, "the finger the finger", and "the witches are back". And I wondered when are WE going on the street? When are we going to burn our underwear. Stay under the stars with our strong phallus. But you see, we are men, we are not women. We define ourselves through our edge, and our competition. Our revolt had to happen through competitions, and scores. Pick Up Art is our form of revolt. You see the fact that sexually women are the chosers, is not a social value, it is a genetically determined one. It is so for all our species. Generally in animals when the female chooses the male, males tend to be bigger. In our species we are bigger. But it is also true that in our species people have a number of sexual partners that follow a power law. But the power law of men is way more steeper than the one for women. In other words few men fuck for everybody else, while most men wank like everybody else. In women the situation is nowhere that extreme. If a women really needs a fuck she can just go to a bar, and we all know that it is so. For women it is really true that if they have a bit of social skill they can have sex anytime they want. As it was described in the Ethical Slut. So now you have three groups, female, alpha male (the ones that have a lot of sex), and beta males (the rest of us). Now this situation is practically the same in every human society. In short it is not society specific. But what is society specific is how people react to this. But before looking at this we need to understand another thing, not only is the division to be not society specific, but also the way in which attraction works. In short who is attracted to whom. Which is why those groups are fairly consistent. Women are attracted to a series of caratteristics, (the alpha qualities), which includes "being a leader of men", "having sense of humor", a cocky attitude, sense of style, and so on. So the "alpha male" not only fucks all the women, but often have also a natural leadership among men. Put those things together and we have a horrible society where one man, and one man only for each village fucks everybody and then dies. Many primates has this society. And this is the society that we are now slowly turning into. And the funny and terrible thing is that women are fully happy about it. Most women would rather be the third lover of a real cool guy than the only wife of a scruffy socially incompetent one. In the modern society there is no legal poligamy, the women still need to marry the ugly guy... but then they are not going to have sex with him. What is this guy going to do? In Chuang Tzu, chapter 5 there is the description of an ugly men which all the women wanted to marry. But when two women fuck the same man, some men are not having any sex. And considering that men have on average more sexual desire than women (they rape and suicide more, they have more testosterone), the situation is even worse. So this is the situation right now. Marrying is not going to help us. A wife can refuse sex, while many studies have shown how sexual desire in women (only!) decreses after marriage. Plus women in a LTR after two years starts to be able to distinguish the scent of a dominant male. Why? To have an affair and bring in the family some good genes that the beta male will then grow up thinking it is his own. I am in Ireland, here women who have Rh- and have a husband who is Rh- still get a shot (if the 'real' father was Rh+, the second baby was in risk of abortion). PUA know this and knows that a woman after being in a relationship for 3 years is more easy to PU than someone who is single. I don't know about men, but my guess is that men after 3 years of relationships are NOT more easy than single ones. But of course eventually the wife desire oozes off, and then the guy needs a different fix to his hormonal system. And in all this you really think that PUA are there for "something as trivial as low sex". Unimportant! Beasts! No, girl, this is the gender equivalent of a class action. Male are not going to be stopped by some women protesting "oh, no mind games, please". We are tired. Most men are not out there to be "sexually rich". Most men are out there for sheer survival. Not to suicide. For having the sexual equivalent of the minimum wage. The minimum sex, outside of marriage, that makes our life worth living. Yes, we compete, but that's because we are men, and we like competition. But when you meet PUA, when you really talk to them, go to their meeting, they just want one thing. Enough sex to be happy, and a girl to love. Is this too much? But because we have studied (and we had to!) we know that marriage is no solution. We know women cheat, stop having sex eventually. So we just try to score. And you still think this sex is trivial matter? And you think that if women suffer a bit because they fall in love and then fall out of love this will stop this tide? When men were suiciding, with their female-'friends' saying, "sorry I see you only as a friend". And "oh, poor you". "what do you think, I dress like this because I like it, this does not mean that I want to have sex with you. Pig!". While advertisment kept on pounding at our hormonal system. When all this was happening the sword of our intention was being carved. And now this will change things. And things will change, because if we men are tied to our hormonal system that keeps us asking for sex, you women are tied to your that requires you to be attracted to the "alpha"-male. But alpha charatteristics can be developed, mirrored. Yep, mind games! But also inner work, and much much practice. And I reckon I still haven't spoken about intimacy. So, in short, intimacy is not important. What is important is a natural attraction. Years ago, on suggestion of Plato (Sheepish Lord of Chaos, here) I went to an Osho party. We had one of their "social meditations". WHich included a part where everybody hugged and dry humped anyone they wanted. In such a situation, girls I was naturally attracted, that normally I would not have known how to approach, came to me. It became very clear how natural attraction was often symmetric. When this happens sex is very good. It is fully irrelevant if you know the person from one year or one day. If you are going to meet them again, have a family, or just say goodby the next day. You recognise, fuck, and say goodby. Merry meet and merry part. And finally let's put the first and the second part of the message together. How does this attraction work with PUA? Well, without PUA the attraction is generally not enough. You will do something wrong and fuck things up. Kill attraction by declaring your love. Assassinate it by paying her a coffee. Stumble it by asking her out for a date. A PUA does not do any of those errors, it is smooth as oil, and lets what should naturally happen happen. And now I really need to go. In any case I shall check the internet tomorrow and then rarely if at all for a couple of weeks. Pietro

Pietro is interested, too in knowing what he has to say. Just at the moment struggling with a request for funding that if approved would give him enough money to have a meal at a decent restaurant every now and then. Which should be out before I go on vacations (saturday), so forgive me if I am not contributing further today. But I will. Wayfarer, yes, PUA stands for pick up artists. There is a whole set of acronyms that PUA use not to be understood by HB4-HB10 and AFC's. If you ever consider study in one of their workshops you should make sure you know them by heart well before turning up. On the first day you always have a small exam, and who fails more gets to put on a wig for the rest of the workshop and pretend he is a girl, every time the instructor needs a volunteer to show a particular opening. Trunk, consider yourself responsible for making me loose 1 hour in looking at old Woody Allen youtube clips. Ok, back to work. I'll be back.

It is, but it wasn't the point. I heard this discussion a gazillion times. I have opened up, torn to pieces those arguments, while explaining, clarifieing PU to countless women and (mama's boys). When things go well (most of the time) I get the women to admit she was not seeing the whole picture. That is when they don't feel threatened (the pretty ones) or worse envious (the not so pretty ones). In one case I might have caused a divorce, which did not made me particularly proud. But the responsability a person has in telling the truth is always somehow limited. But when you face this kind of pre-supposition: what can you say? I mean, of all the PUA I know I am probably among the ones who more deeply feels he is poligamous. Most of the others are out there trying to cope with an historical contingency (feminism) that just brought us back to the times of harem without having anyone fully equipped with that. Most of the PUA out there are looking for the one. But if you present something as trying to embody your ming (destiny), this is ok. If your ming is poligamous, than it is not ok anymore. But embodying ones ming is no trivial matter. It is considerer the lowest form of immortality, not the highest, but a form of immortality nevertheless. But of course for a women, sex is just "...something so trivial". The fact that we have different bodies, different minds, and thus different destiny, and different requirements to be fulfilled in this lifetime just goes out of the window, while all the knowledge that our local "witch" has on the hormonal system, and how it affects the body and how it is affected by relationships and sex, for a men, just remains in her head. Now, how unintegrated is that?!

I wouldn't use PUA techniques with you milady

Yes, thanks. I am more interested in Steve P for his taoist studies. Of which he does not speak much but I sense he has. The force is strong in him Have you seen the DVD 6 of the Annihilation method? Still I think NLP is interesting to learn in its own right. And agreed on how NLP requires a clear personal moral-ethical system.

Agreed, if you read Gandhi autobiography he will describe how it was paramount for him to keep a very strict diet to be able to keep hic complete vow of celibacy. But he wasn't exactly a passive man. Also some food tend to require the gall bladder to do a lot of work and that feeds thoughts and fantasies. Maybe there is a way not to starve yourself, and still be clean enough not to succumb so much to thoughts to do more than a moderate sexual activity.

Damn, beaten up on time! Coutesy of MagicCards.info In any case meat stinks bad only when you cook it. Eat it raw and it doesn't stink bad at all. I had many people telling me how can they can tell a meat eater from a vegetarian by how they smell but they just couldn't with me.

"in this field" I love how you put it, it seems even something official. I don't have many links, mostly because my sticking points are so basics those days, that it really does not pay off to read much. When I started bristollair.com really helped me a lot. I recently saw a video on youtube where Mystery approached a girl. It was heart warming to see someone as ugly as him winning an unwinnable situation just by getting the initial of her middle name right. But I don't seem to be able to find the vide again. It was on youtube and it went together with the two video of explenations. What I am really curious is about Steve P (now Hipnotica?) and Rasputin. You can see them in one of the Annihilation Method dvd, the number 6 if I remember well. Those guys obviously know Taoism, and not just PNL, so what I really would like to know is where did they learned it from. They charge ridiculously high amounts of money. PNL=NLP In Italy we call it PNL

Since we are on the topic, I want to share this video: How does a PUA handles rejection: Don't miss it. I showed it to some of my collegues in the office and they laughed so much they needed to send it to all their friends.

I fully agree. I always tend not to come more than 7 times in one day. I use to come eight times in one day (I was somehow influenced by Terry Pratchett), but then when I went to New York I spoke with Max (Smile, here), and he convinced me that it was very bad for my jing, so now I only come 7 times. I feel much better already.

Sounds like it is too early to even ask the question. Many years ago a friend gave me the following tip: don't apply for a job for which you cannot understand the job description. I think I would put your question in that category for now ;-)