Pietro

I argue that the word patriarchy does not stricly imply an abuse. Although historically, especially in recent history most patriarchal societies might have been abusive. And on this point I would stand separated from most women in saying that even those abusive societies where often not so much busive against women, but against most of people, of either genders. Eventually when anyone suffers in a society the society as a whole suffers, because we are all tied up. As such to bash patriarchy in whole, is not correct. What we need to do is to sort what is ok and what is not, society by society. Using our knowledga about different societies to help us develop the flexibility to think about how society might look like. This in short is my position.

Hi Darebak, before and without entering in the question if Patriarchy is good or bad, if there are other possibilities or not, (mostly because I don't have the time to enter in thsi discussion), I want to strongly oppose to this use of language. That is to the redefinition of technical terms to fit different socio-political situation. By all means, let's invent new terms if we need to, but let's not use and abuse original idioms. I patriarchy something in latin, then that's what it means. Full stop. Feminist can try to rewrite the vocabulary as much as they want, but in the measure in which they are moving away from truth, they are moving away from the possibility to act without abuse. In the moment in which you redefine the term patriarchy into anything else you are mixing two different concepts, and eventually people who follow you will fight society A, thinking they are fighting society B. How can this not lead to abuse? it is like with the term 'Terrorist'. The meaning is, someone who tries to change society by scaring people. Coming from the root 'Terror'- fear. Now this is very far from the meaning that is given by some of our governments. But if you look close enough you will notice that the space between what they say litterally they fight and what they actually fight is the space where their abuse travels. Changing the terms is then conducive to confusion and out of confusion comes the possibility of abuse.

What shall I say, now? I enjoyed having you here. Have a good trip home. Pietro

So how would you catalog David Deida? Because he would really agree with you on how to proceed, and yet he is considered really high from the PUA world. We seem to have a shortcircuit here.

I will. Thanks for the fact that Europe is few hours ahead. It was in 2004, if I remember well, that the HT discussion group collapsed. Some said that it was the good old James who pulled the plug, some (and among them James himself saying that it was the work of a hacker) The few afecionados, who were at the time already in touch also via email started to organise themselves. First through some of the external websites that we had by the time collected. There was the idea that we wanted a new discussion group. The "Healing Tao" part of the "Healing Tao discussion group" started to feel quite too close and there was the desire for a website for people who would not fully subscribe to any school, but where with no home. Bums of the Tao. The name was suggested by Ron Jeremy. (Originally was TaoBums.com). The website was built, and designed by Sean. The rapidity with which he moved was later very criticized by many of us. Because that rapidity implied an ownership of the resulting website. So much that we tried to build a parallel website: taobum.com. It didn't went well, and it fell of in an orgy of divisions (buddhists against taoists, free speach against legalist, violents against pacifists, and that was enough divisions for 6 people). In the meantime Michael had started again his website and clarified that he intended to keep a much closer eye on it. So the Healing Tao Discussion Board started becoming more and more school discussion board. Maybe in a closer way to what was designed to be, originally in 97-98. To clarify more the difference from taobum.com Sean changed the name to thetaobums.com. He threw out Ron Jeremy after his latest assault, threw his latest thread in the Pit, and moved on. Slowly me, Plato, Max came back here. Trip never came back at all. Harry (which you might remember with the name Smile) went back in the forest (having become a Theravadan monk in the meantime), and Ron went back hunting the HT were they couldn't really throw him out due to technical reasons. This website has many different parts: Discussions, Blogs, Articles, Chats, Reviews, PM (Personal Message) and probably more. The website includes two parts for blogs, and descriptions of personal practices. One under Blogs, and another under Personal Practice Discussion. A sub part of the discussion board, where every user has a thread for itself. I personally love the blogs, but alas no one seems to, so the blogs is quite unused. While the Personal Practice Discussion is followed daily. There are plenty of other parts, an article session, the possibility for people to chat, a Review to tell your story about different teachers or material, and so on. The spirit of this discussion board is better clarified in the words from Sean himself: It was in response to a user who was protesting because some material of his school became public knowledge on this board. And was asking the person who made it public to take it off (ok), and Sean, being the owner of the website to take it off himself (not ok). It is a website where we come and discuss our experiences with Taoist practices, Taoist teachers and Taoist Masters (true or false). There is no single person who is welcome as the final knowledge on everything. Although on specific things some people end up getting a bit of the aura of the expert. We all refer to Max and Plato if we are speaking about Bodri, Sean D is normally referred to when speaking about David and his Thunder school, on Primal Diet it is often me who answers questions, Plato on PUA, Yoda on Dagobert, Wayfarer on Shaolin, and Cameron (you might remember him with the name Shieky) on Plato who has by now become study material himself. BTW, the name Sheepish Lord of Chaos was given him by a website which would give silly names when questioned with your real one. We all got ours, but Plato who at the time was doing the Kan & Li decided to keep it to represent the changes he was going through. How did we manage so far not to get a single big master I ignore it. A singular balance of powers seem to be in place and the fact of having what seems a post modern practitioner as the first moderator seems to be related to this quite positive final outcome.

Actually Taoism is full of chick crack.

Probably because men take risks, more than women. Which ultimately boils down to the fact that men have 10 times more testosterone than women. Look at even this website, it was made by a male: Sean. He was strongly opposed by many people (for most of the time with me on the farefront), and yet managed to survive, and make it fluorish, and show he could do better. This website will probably not make Sean rich, but is a risk, and it might. If you multiply the risk taking approach for half of the population you get that the most rich people might be men (and for the same reason even more men would be poor, all the ones for which the risk didn't went well). If you are in the real estate business, it's not going to make much of a difference if you are man or woman. Most of the people in the 1000 are not people working for other people. But are people employing other people. Yet, while most (if not all) of the more rich person are male I was told (and I wish I had the data to prove it) that most of the richness is in female hands. Just because women have a tougher skin, and eventually inherit the family money. In my family, my friends family it is so. I suspect for most middle class people, and for all those where the family money is inherited and comes from previous generation, this is so. No, I am sure women are still oppressed in some ways, and men are oppressed too. But by and large money in western countries is not one of them.

No reason to be so acid, we are discussing. Plus I am not a good cook. I eat in primal diet so I was actually curious to see if someone was able to prepare anything which was inside my diet and a bit more refined than some butter and honey mixed, or a steak tartar. I might ask you back when you don't feel attacked.

Yeah, talk talk talk. I doubt that your cooking skills are sublime, and I challenge you to prove it!

Indeed just an observation. In the PUA community stories like this are common, but in general the women is actually passive, and the effect of standing to her only opens a door. But unless the men was active, or really good in spotting her IOI (indicators of interest) he would never have found out. But then the story would not have been told. Fishing is an art, On the edge between hard and soft. Indeed a great school.

I am starting to miss the old HT board where it was just not possible to delete a message. We should put a tax. As a form of friendship that comes from exchange Americans should pay one euro every time they edit one post, and european should pay one dollar when they edit. And the difference in price is to show that you are really committed.

Can we move this thread to the pit while keeping it open. It would be nice toward Ron to show that he is not the only there. If the old taobum.com was alive I would have invited all to bring it on there. Pietro

No com'on Pat, you can't do this. Not to all of us who have been here silently cheering. Think of all he have said, do you think it is enough to just say that his tradition is a non martial one. Com'on I'll invite him to meet up when I am in New York and then two of you can have your little discussion while we film. We'll get the Cameron video for real! And then we can sell the video for thousands of dollars, and use the money to get the training in Denmark. You are more childish than me-e! La-la-la-la-la-la. Hmm, Unfortunately the url only handles flight inside the US. This is the fact, there are plenty of cheap companies that work inside the US, or inside Europe. It's moving from one to the other that is expensive. Maybe I should go to Groenland (which I gather is Denmark) cross with a ferry to Canada, and then get a cheap flight to NY.

Thank you Pat, I will check your url out. I think I'll stay at Max place. I have been there before, and I am confident that Max will not force me to read Bodri's book... too much . I would love to meet up as I come to New York. Pietro Sure we should meet up. I probably will be around only for a day or two so I suspect we should just throw a taobum party and get everybody to sign up. I mean it doesn't have to be at Max place if he isn't happy to have all those martial artists coming around and just fooling around as usual. I am sure Max and Plato will know all sort of cool public places around there. And who can't come should just turn up in their chi or shen body.

Yes, I do. But I have no time. Plus it would not be possible to do it without writing a major essay on David. And I have done that so many times in the past, that I am just annoyed I can't simply link back to it. And you are writing about the skills. Still at a beginning stage, but on this David have moved from being an object of envy to a role model for my cocky and funny routines. Respect me coming over, the link was for a one week summer school at the mind and life institute wanted by the dalai lama to study meditation. They accept only contemplative meditators (most work done on vipassana), and doctors neurophysiologists. Their aim is to study the changes that happen in the brain (and body) due to contemplative meditation. So I applied as a double class (like in AD&D, you know ): scientist and meditator. The inner dissolving being the contemplative practice, and my researchh in artificial life which connects to autopoiesis being the scientific side. Now the Mind and Life institute was founded not just by the Dalai lama, but also by a number of scientists. One of them being Varela, the father of autopoiesis, so this provided a link to my daily research. So I applied thinking that they would never get me. I am not a doctor, and I am not a buddhist, but they did. And it was quite funny having to fill in the form after what kind of meditation I have been doing: 1. How long have you had a meditation practice? I have Never Meditated Less than One Year One to Two Years Two to Three Years More than Three Years 2. Does your meditation practice come from one of the following traditions? If so, which one? Tibetan (shamata/vipassana) Theravadan Zen Christian Hindu Sufism Judaism None of the Above More than 3 years- none of the above Taoism was not even mentioned. I suppose they might have accepted me just to study me The summer school should run for 5 days. So I might come over the week end before, and leave the week end after. During the summer school I will sleep at their institute, but before and after I will need another place for one or maybe two nights. That is when your host would be precious. I also would like to see Plato, and Eric if possible. And, and... are there other taobums in NY? BTW does anyone know what would be a good cheap flight company between dublin and NY?

What does MRA means? I think here you said it all. I also think that something is bubbling. I can feel it, beneath the surface. It comes out here and there. Women got their revolution as a big mass movement. But we are different, more individualistic. Yet I can feel the pressure being added on the one side, and the pressure being released on the other as everynow and then a man steps up, and other agree. No big shouting on the street, but one standing, and the other supporting. And man step up in many different ways, PUA is one, but denouncing how equality is harming fairness is another. Protesting for different treatment between fathers and mothers in divorce is another. As people step up against the paedophile witch hunt. (or step down: you can find the link? Try google cache, 2, or the snipme but the original had 160 comments. Collectively as interesting as the original article) As man speak about how they got raped when they were kids (link to an italian article). How study show that woman are as violent as man. And how woman like a man who is in charge. How non feminist appear statistically more happy. And even Gor group expands. But still there are many places in which the pressure builds. With the sensation that is a wave that has to pass. In china they are starting, Stealing a kiss in italy is now sex abuse. (which makes me both a vistim and an abuser). Women who falsely accuse of rape are sentenced to a microscopic length of time compared to what her victim would risk if she was not discovered. As kids are being accused of sexual harasment: "Mommy what have I done? Why is the police coming and taking me?" And how studies on differences in gender (and in race) are being hidden. (archived version here) So, yes, I would say that we are in the middle of a process. Feminism as a wave has just passed, and now men are awakening. Soem through a divorce, some through a cause. Some through years of forced solitude. And depending on what awakened them they end up in the various schools (Deida, Bly, PUA, ...) and let me add Moore and Gillette, author of King, Warrior, Magician, Lover. So, yes, we are in the middle of a process.

No. And since I am toying with the idea to tell the whole story don't ask me more, as you might inadvertantly come across the real one, and then I would be forced to shut up, as I will not lie.

Oh my gosh, oh my gosh! I remember. So this would be my reasons for me black mailing him. This is so furiosly funny. I might tell the story when I ended laughing it will take a while.

You know, after writing I thought about it (how the energy comes back only after it is being sent, now that's a mixed blessing) It was really the fact of getting both of you with one move that got me going. Sorry for Vidiami that was in the middle. Still I would be happy to know what the hell did David told you 'bout me.

Eric!! Welcome back! Pietro

I know, I got carried away.

First of all thanks: shill will be my new english word for today. No. I don't know what Sean is refering to. I don't think I was black mailing David. I don't think I know any secret of David that would make him blackmailable from me. I don't see any reason why I would want to black mail him. If Sean has anything to say I think he should just say it. Now look at this entry: First sean is saying to Vidiami that he got his privacy violated "because" he was not mindful. While no such cause effect exists. The information got out because he was not mindful. But it is not Sean position to punish Vidiami for this. To simply imply this is to step up in a intermediate position between Vidiami and David. Position that Sean keeps on claiming that does not belong to him, directly, while subtly he would keep on acting to make people believe in that frame. Saying he knows secrets about me is on the same attitude. David does not know any secret about me. I can't even think of anything David might think that could be a secret (after all we haven't seen each other for such a long time) Then he sais that What Pietro did was a power play and then he adds: not the first such behavior from him toward David Was my power play? having seen various tao wars on this and similar boards, with people sending chi bolt from one side to the other, no it wasn't. And however we want to call it, was it against someone? And in case, against whom? And what is more, what is Sean saying about not being the first time I power played David.????! You see, at this stage I don't consider Sean Denty to be a truthful source anymore. I don't mean that he would go and lie flat out, I more think that he will reframe anything to his advantage. Showing my action as being against David, and not out of annoyance with him is really not getting the message. But the message was not for him, so it does not matter. But to really understand if my action was against David or against Sean I invite you for a little imagination excercise: Now imagine; imagine if Sean was not studying with David, and then Vidiami, who was studying with David wrote his message. Do you think I would have have copied the message to annoy David? And then ask Vidiami to refer to David that he should contact me? Why would I? Out of the blue. It does not make any sense, doesn't it. And now imagine a different scenario. Vidiami and Sean are studying with this lineage holder: master X. I never met master X. Sean is happily pimping the community, asking people to study with master X, and generally annoying everybody, while not realising he is acting in the real world, and not in one of his dreams-videogames. Do you think I would have jumped at the possibility to annoy Sean? You better believe it. I would have jumped at the possibility to have Sean needing to go to his master, and say: I am sorry, the situation got out of hand. This evil character - may he be used as a joke for the next million of years - asked for you to step in. Don't say, show. Discomodating a master is the best way to show that his best student is not worth his trust. And here is the message. At least as you can transform in words an action: The message is that I (can I dare to say we: some of us) don't trust Sean anymore. (Anymore because I naturally give trust the first time I meet a person). That if I do something that might eventually disturb David I expect David to move, because Sean cannot be trusted. And I needed that message to arrive to David. Will he use it? I don't know, nor do I care. If he said I was black mailing him, then probably not. But if he is setting up his school, ignoring a similar message might not be the right thing. Now, why didn't I simply mailed David? It is not my style, you see. I don't mail person A, speaking about person B. I am now speaking about S. because it is a public forum, he can (and will) read me, and answer, if he feels like. Or at least know and consider what I am saying. Consider, I never sent even one PM around for this story, and I only send PM when a thread got so personal that I think no one might be interested in what has actually become a discussion between two people. Mostly this happens with Peregrino when a thread end up speaking about european politics. Sean PM this world, and half of the other. It is a good thing that Lu Tung Ping is not on the board, or his inbox would be flooded. Sean manipulated people, got people telling him personal things (forget about me, it was Vidiami who protested, not me), and then revealed them. Or threatened to reveal dirty secrets, unexistant for what I know, but please, be my guest, speak out! It's in the style, in the action that you feel the person. Not in the words. Not the words. Especially with someone like Sean Danty.

Post deleted. (I actually read this mail later, when I already had deleted the post after receiving Vidiami's message). Best of luck to all of you, Pietro Pietro has a motive to black mail David? Uh?

But that kind of respect is ok when you are inside their school. In the same way in which if you go to a western University, even if you are from the east you treat each other openly and unassumingly. How then eastern science students treat each other in the privacy of their culture is their personal affair. Once you bring any information over here (to the taobums) you must be ready for it to be copied, teared apart, criticised, and discussed, and if it resists, well this is our proof that it had actually something valuable inside. If a culture has problem with cartoons they should disallow it in the nations where they are controlling the political power, and they should not go to nations where they cannot handle the cultural requirement. Killing people of another culture because in their homecountry they follow a culture different from yours is a not a proper answer and will only lead to more violence. We don't have much cultural requirement about respect but we have a strong cultural requirement about free speech. Who cannot handle it should simply not come to the west.