Pietro

LOL! it was the second post from vidiami, which I quoted in full in the first entry on this thread I did. Go and read it, but quick because as soon as David contacts me directly I'll have to take it off, as I have promised so.

I never claimed to have them. The good thing about not having them is that I don't get so pissed off when people piss on my tradition, which in this forum happens almost daily. You speak as if David was my father. Send him my greeting. I have no desire to harm him, so if this is harming him in any way he should contact me directly and I will immediately delete my copy of that infamous post from the public square. Friendship is given, not asked. I'm ok, thanks. My taoist master, lineage holder, believes in opening up the tradition, following the examples of western universities with science. Because, he said, the old way made the art become weaker and weaker at each generation. But honestly are you sure you want to be in that school Sean? I mean, it can't be such a good school if it never taught you the magic word. Oh boy, oh boy! Thanks, I had enough of messages relayed through you. I'll be very happy to hear him. Look what one has to do to get back in touch with a friend, LOL. LOL! Wow, freeform.

Maybe. I said that I did not want things to appear and disappear too quick, and I did what I did to make sure the post was still there when I was coming back. You might not realise it but most of my posts during the weekend are written at the uncertain connection of other's wifi which I steal from the campervan where I live. As I expected I was not going to connect again for some time. I will probably eventually delete it. But, you see, I did not sign any agreement. I just went with the flow, and my understanding is that the karmic retribution when you go with the flow is not that heavy. It is different to make a million dollar by playing in the stock market (going with the flow), or making the same amount of money by psychically changing the universe. I have to say I find your behaviour insulting for the whole community here. You arrive and treat Vidiami, who is one of the oldest posters here, as your doormat to which you give orders. You invite people to put together money to get one in Your Great School, and then when it comes out that someone has actually being into one of your special special training, then you panick when he starts to tell around what was going on there. But when we describe what were we expecting from the person who is going there you keep your mouth quiet and avoid to tell that it will not be possible for that person to describe the practices. It is hard to describe how double faced this behaviour is. But worse, it comes out that there is a difference in price. Not a small one. Nearly one order of magnitude. Do you know what is a pimp Sean? It is a person who promises you something that you desire a lot and uses the promise to get all sort of advantages. Well, this is exactly how you have been acting in this community. In the HT you left because Michael, who might not understand a lot about meditation, but understands about business really a lot, saw your game. And started calling it a cult. And now your behaviour, as the vague description of this information went out is of a person who is panicking. For our own good, of course. Not because suddenly you saw the possibility to loose all that little bit of power you felt you gained on us. And more, you call me and plato on PU, and you absolutely use the same tricks and movements in the community. Gaming the whole community, trying to game one of the female members: "you have a crash on me, don't deny it would make it even more obvious". What is that Swingcat speaking? I might even find the page. This has nothing to do with David, nor Vidiami. David is fine. It is you who stinks. It is you who with your behaviour gave the understanding that it was ok to share the practices, because you felt that in this way you would have got a person under your wing, and into your school. And if it IS such a big thing, the David can send me an sms in italian, from his email address (which I have), and ask me to take it off, and of course I will do for an old friend. I wonder why Plato is still silent.

The previous description has been deleted after Vidiami's request. Go in peace, Pietro

Bloody hell guys. Live those old posts alone. I am in Europe, arrive 6 hours later and only get to smell the farts and not hear the sound, is no fun. To get Michael start saying that he teached to David how to set up a business. Please, I think David is doing quite well on his own. Thank you (about the house), appreciated and accepted. Did I not told you, btw, why am I coming. Applide, accepted, I'm now waiting for the electronic passport with the snake logo on it.

Agreed with both. If we get forward with the Condercet we should also add the names of those we would like to see go, even if they don't want to go. You know just to make them in trouble.

We need a poll where people can vote for all the ones that they would support. It would be silly to require many of us who have 3 or 4 names that they would support to only vote for one. What we need here is called Condercet Voting. In this system every person who votes ranks all the people who could be elected in order of how much would they want them. It is normally complicated to then calculate the winner, as some math is involved. But lo and behold, we have the internet, and computers, and internet services, and the Condorcet Internet Voting Service. So if everybody is ok with this, I would take down the name of those who are willing to go, then the email of those who are willing to vote, and I shall set up the poll. You will then receive (if I remember well from last time we used it) 3 emails. One to invite you to vote (with your personal url), one to tell you that your vote was registered, and one once all the people have voted, or we have reached the time limit that was set.

LOL! I might see you soon, Max. *later edit: when I come to NY* I see by your comment, and by Cam's that I have not expressed myself clearly. Yes, Yoda was involved with Buddhism, but by my understanding he 1) left those practices 2) never confused the practices of one school and tradition with the practices from another school or tradition. I mean, imagine sending someone like Bill Bodri who would come back and report: is just the same path as all the others. There are also people who would be capable but are simply uninterested. And there might be people who haven't got the money. Those are the ones that could be better helped.

Well, Einstein said: things (and explenations about things) should be as simple as possible, but not simpler. A level of complexity is intrinsec in this world. But the nature of our learning experience is to start from simple, expand in the complex, and then contract again in the simpler as we consciously forget the details. Personally I don't trust system that are either too simple or too complex. Too simple will be when it does not honor the complexity of the world. Too complex when the complexity is such that it prevents the practice to become effortless even after years of practice. my .2 e

I stand by Spyrelx. I think he has both the historical experience to evaluate what happens, and is not proficient (by his own admission) to the point that any result in him would come quite strictly from the new training (no offence meant Spyrelx). By speaking of historical experience I mean, he has been with us for a number of years. And this can ease the passing of information. He can rapidly say: ok so they do microcosmic but then connect to the ming men, while using DrLin to ... or whatever. I would like to see Wayfarer to go. But I think he is too proficient for the job. It would then be difficult to disentangle what of the result comes from his own practice and what from the training. Also I suspect he would mix some buddhist material or share back using too much a buddhist p.o.v. I would like to see a real taoist go. Not a Taoist-Buddhist. Taomeaw would fit the job. For the same reason I would put as a requirement to have :3-4 hours a day timewise. But if he is already practicing 3 or 4 hours a day then, again, he would be so far on the path that most tao bums would be unable to start. So to have the time available. With this quote, which made me crack up, btw, for me, Sean has shown to be a really good candidate for the job. I wouldn't finance him, though. Sorry, Sean, personal issues. So, for me so far I put 100 euro for Spyrelx or Wayfarer (or Taomeaw) or Plato. I strongly discourage Max, for I think he is not in the point in life to have the right objectivity for this job. Again, it might work too good for him. And if he is already convinced what good would it be. I mean for us. And for him too the discourse about wanting a pure Taoist, and not a Tao-Buddhist would hold. There is no need to look at what you guys do in a secret forum. The tree is judged by its fruit. And its fruit posts here as well. The issue is not to have all the answers. The issue is to believe there is only one path. Of which you incidentally claim to know a part.

Ok, I'll play the devil's advocate. But what if he is then required to keep his mouth shut. Would our money be given with the string attached that he is not to make any commitment that would prevent him to report back fully? Doesn't sound like a great deal for whoever would take it. And what would all this talk talk talk do to him. Too much talk harms the heart. And especially the heart shen suffers. In a situation like this to experience it properly he would need to go, come back, and be silent to digest all that has happened. Coming back and make a full report is 'spiritually speaking' the unwisest idea I could think off. Said that personally I would chip in for Yoda and Plato. No one else from this pocket.

For the other questions see the response from the others. I have nothing to add. this one is personal: It's a pre-judice. It comes before facts, and their judgement. Take care, Pietro

The first difference is that chakra don't make nice pictures. And there's probably a reason for that. Chackra are opened. Tan Tien are built. Chackra are along the central channel (at least the standard 7) Tan Tien although they are also in the central channel, have a position physical position which is not necessarily in the central channel. For example the LTT is in front. I can't say much on the other two as I haven't worked enough with them to have enough precise knowledge not to risk saying BS. Still I feel the solar plexus part of the MTT to be more in the front of the body than the Central Channel, also. You know the microcosmic orbit. Well each point on the front of the body has an equivalent point in the back of the body. As the energy goes back and forth between those two points the chackra gets [activated/opened/strengenth/...]. Chackra are essentially energetic. I never heard of someone being hit by someones chackra. But tai ji people can do all sort of nasty tricks with their dan tien. You fill your dan tien. You store energy there. You cook energy there. It is a lab. I never heard that you store any energy in the chackra. You ask a real martial artist, and he might let you feel his tan tien. According to Alan, speaking about Bruce: "it feels like there is a very hard stone moving very fast. There was a doctor there, so I asked him what organ was it, and he said that he dissects people all the time, and you will not find anything there.". So, although the LTT is energetic it can be felt physically. I never heard of something similar with the chackra. And my reaction was just because I have a prejudice against the indian yogic system, so seeing my loved taoism being compared to yoga made me coagulate in pain.

aaargh

How beautifully put mbanu, it really embraces the sensation of being a process, more than a thing. And the idea that the aim remains the same in life and death, I have heard it on and on from Bruce. He would probably phrase it as: the aim is the same wether you have a body or not I wonder if this, not having a body, but having an aim only refers about people humans beings those who have reached the body of individuality. But then why is it that Bruce sais that as the baby boom generation will start to get older he will start to teach what practice to do once you do not have a body. He surely must not be planning to teach those only to those who have reached the body of individuality. for this would be a terrible business model. He would never manage to pay for 1/10th of the expenses.

I feel there is something to be added. NOTE (aside): I find really interesting Thaddeus comment on taoist believes. From more Taoist sources (Winn/Frantzis) I found that in Taoist Cosmology you don't get reborn, becouse you are not one thing. You are essentially a mesh up of differnet souls (shen), parts, and similar. So the first part for a taoist is to become one. This is not becoming enlightened. Or at least is not the highest level of enlightenment. But basically once you are one then you (can be?/are) reborn. For this a serious part in many taoist practices deals with this ssue of going from the many to the one. Winn speaks about the Fusion of the 5 shens. While Frantis while not speaking of a single practice to reach this aim, refers to this aim as: "the body of individuality". It is, according to Frantzis only once you have the body of individuality, that you "know who you are", that you can answer the question "who are you", get reborn, and start (in the water method/ his tradition) to do alchemy.

Extremely serious. It can be life changing, and I am challenging him to provide the answer.

Thanks for the lesson. I will not comment on it, still could you please show me your depth by answering my question? What is the difference between sex and pornography? Take care, Pietro

UUh, what we got here. A dissent just for me. How precious! My interaction with MichaelD went like this: She asked for a male practitioner to have sex with. I offered my services, at the agreement that I would also have teached her. She first accepted then said she was not really interested in the first place. She then started producing semipornographic images, to which I asked if she knew the difference between sex and pornography. She first claimed to know it, and then when pressed further she left. I see no fault in my actions. And there are many taoist groups in which sex between strangers (even randomly chosen) is absolutely ok. Now here we are at the TBs. A place of discussion 'between schools'. On what inter-school base do your ground your dissent? And since you claim to be superior to all this (with the spirit behind your words, if not with their litteral meaning), why don't you help her out? She is probably reading us and in great need of knowing the distinction between pornography and sex. Why don't you answer the question yourself, then.

Sorry Cat, I just saw your question right now. Alan. Alan Peatfield is. Pietro

This is brilliant! The advice we all agreed on was: find a proper teacher and study with him. You came, dissed everybodies suggestion... and then went on suggesting the same. Have you ever heard of a contrarian Sean?

Sounds like most of the things I wanted to say have already been said. On one sense you seem a very committed guy, on another it sounds strange at least that you went as far as you claim you did without consulting some living authority just to know if you were totally off track. Reminds me off Bruce's: "never underestimate human ability to selfdelude itself", or similar. I agree both with Spyralex, and with Trunk. But most of all I am puzzled on how could you interpret some of the instructions. For example sitting in front of a wall for 9 years what does it mean? Presumebly it does not mean to actually sit physically in front of a wall. But some people would say it does. So let's assume would mean to be in equanimity, so you took this not in a litteral sense, but in a symbolic sense. But then the 9 years bit. That you definitely interpreted in the most litteral way possible. But 9 has all sort of meanings in chinese culture, and you know. It is a yang number 3*3. It refers to completion. Couldn't that mean to just do that until it is complete? We don't know. And honestly if the teacher you consulted had not done it himself he does not know either. Or at least he would not be able to look into you (while you are physically present) and say if you are really into equanimity or you are just deluding yourself. When Bruce had a particular peak experience (described in the book relaxing into your being) his teacher said: ok you break through, now you'll need about 10 years before the tree of illusion is completely cut off. Maybe that is the point in which you should start counting the sitting in front of a wall. It would make sense. But if you read his description that is a VERY advanced stage... and that is just the beginning. It is the moment when all the red dust settles, and you start to directly perceive reality. Did he completed it, after? I don't know. Is it automatic then? I know even less. And I am not suggesting you Bruce. He does not teach any Alchemy. But maybe you might be interested in going to china and becoming a taoist priest yourself. But most of all I am really really puzzled that someone could prepare and follow through a more than a decade long program of meditation all by himself. I am not really sure if I should congratulate with you or spat on you. So in the meantime get some really damp congratulation for having done one of the most stupid thing you could have done in your life and have survived in good health. That is quite an achievement. Pietro

Thanks for this, I found it quite interesting. Pietro

Yen Hui, thank you for the thoughtful answer. Eventually I got the computer fixed, but I am leaving in less than one hour for England, where I should attend my half-yearly workshop with Bruce. I really like your answer and I will answer, as much as I can, point by point to your questions. In the meantime Taomeow (great name, btw) post was really good. Although, of course, I can expect other people to defend my claims. I will, just in time . Since some of the conversation seem to have gravitated around the figure of Liu Hung Chieh, Bruce's teacher. I think I'll add the link to his page where you can find a summary of his story. You have also asked for references to on his written work. I think you do understand that will not always be possible. SOme of the most interesting things have never been written. We are being told those things, on and on. And they make a coherent whole to which we are slowly introduced. But, for example, until few years ago Bruce was not teaching anything about Taoist morality, Taoist ethics, and (what I consider the most interesting and ground breaking) Taoist analysis on believes. Btw, the comment: making taoist practices does not make you a taoist, was not coming from me, but from him directly. He explained so. But the following obvious question: so what does? was never asked. I can tell you my answer, as well as my understanding of his remark. With the obvious underline understanding that it might be totally off. As I am with Bruce, those next 5 days (and then I shall not see him again for 6 months), I will probably have the possibility to ask him 1 question not related to the course he is teaching. I really hope he might also expand more on believes and taoism, but I might ask him the crucial question: if doing taoist practices does not make you a Taoist, so what does? ok. 35 minutes to go. And I need to finish packing. Take care, you bunch of crazy crazy taoists, you are all near my heart. Pietro

Actually yes. At least reference them when it is possible. We seem to agree that there is an external truth. But then we tend to disagree with what exactly this truth is. Not only we disagree, but often our teacher seem to disagree, at least upfront. And then, when you dig deeper you might find that the reality is so much more complex that there is space for both statements, just in different moment, in different contexts, etc. One time I went to Bruce and said, Bruce, from when I started practicing those meditations, all the tao te ching started to make much more sense. I felt I understood what the author meant. He looked me with an amused look, and said: How do you know that what you are understanding is really what the author meant. The fact that something makes sense does not mean that that is the sense that was originally meant. By giving references you are stepping out from the preaching position, into the more human position of a practitioner who has his studies, his practices and his understandings and awakenings. And you permit to other people to go deeper by letting them understand what is your interpretation, and what is the original message. I find it to be a very healthy and humbling discipline. I invite you to take it up, like most people in this forum are doing. with love, Pietro