Pietro

I am no anatomist, but I think the name is coming from the structure of the nerves there. I recall that many nerves converge into a central point, giving a solar look to the point. But I might be totally off. LORL!

...and... what is it? you are getting it right now.

yep

Let Michelle answer.

Paul, dear, if I lend you some money will you give it back to me once you don't need it anymore? And if you do it, will you do it because it is your DUTY or because... well you just give it back. It is right. It is ok to do it. You feel good in doing it. Or, more precisely, you would feel bad in not doing so. You might feel something is not right. It is not concluded. ...? So, assuming that you were to give back the money, do you think all people would do it? Actually no, there are some people who would not, but the great majority of people would. Now, if you impose to people what they should do, you know what will happen. That people will start to do it, not because they feel wrong in not doing so, but because they have learned that this is the RIGHT thing to do. Then they will start going around preaching to other people what they should do. And then they will start imposing penalties for people who don't follow their guidelines. Either physical, monetary, or just social. That person is a bad person. He wanted to fuck MichaelD. Burn him, burn him. In short a mess. And what's worse is that they lost track of their true nature. They don't do something because they feel like. They do something because it has been told them that that is the correct and proper way to behave/reach enlightenment. So my take is that a taoist can be a very ethical person. And often is, even by other religions standard. Yet, since its ethical sense comes from the inside, and not from the outside, it is always a bit different. A bit unique. And maybe even a bit wrong . But to reach this you had to throw away all those external impositions, and look for your original nature. For what it really felt right and good for you.

Ian, I really do not understand. And please I would appreciate if you could help me on this. You see, maybe I have a different experience about the emotional world, and the emotional body. And maybe I have different values, too. But I don't see all this garbage in the solar plexus. Each human being has a unique energy. It is that one energy that makes human being so yummy. And yes, that energy is a mixture of their primordial energy and of all those blockages. All those experiences that made them who they are. Now some people feel nice, and some don't. Some people you don't want to get near, and some, it is painful to be far. Plato and Max, like each other. Sean and Lezlie search for each other, and so on. Friendship, love. You always have this attraction going on. Now, in my experience I have touched many solar plexus. Either massaging, loving, or just doing it. Except for one occasion it was always a very pleasent experience. I always felt there the best, more purest energy of the person. That energy that is behind all the other energies, the energy that pushes you to go and look for a person, even if this means having to face all the shit that they might be dealing with. I always felt the solar plexus energy was a treat. I said, except for one time. That one time I was doing a Chi Nei Chang massage, out of friendship, to a friend of mine. A beautiful girl I had a oneitis for, for more than a decade. That time as soon as I touched I bounced back. There was something in her body that I really did not want to touch. 3 days later she got raped. I did make my massage to her. Some days later, and maybe it helped her going through the experience. I don't know. I suspect that what I felt was what was going to happen. Was some part of karma that was being grounded, and my body just protected itself. I can't find any other explenation. But that was just one case. In all the others, it was the most pleasent, unique energy. Really defining that person as a single human being in the whole universe. Maybe my attainment is so low that in truth I am just a garbage worm who finds its greatest pleasure in composting others garbage. Because I truly can't understand all this solar plexus-phobia going on. Do you think you, or maybe your teacher, could unravel all this. Thanks, Pietro

Max, would you mind exposing to us, mere mortals, your sources. It was requested at the beginning of this thread, and it seem that most people clarified what was their own opinion and what was coming from other sources. And I don't say this because I don't believe what you say has no place in the Taoist tradition but to put it better in context. Thanks, Pietro

Michelle, you know what is the difference between pornography and sex? Pietro

I will not say, this is wrong according to their tradition. Making taoist practices does not make you a taoist. You can have a buddhist, or a christian, or a jew make taoists practices. If they superimpose to those practices their moral/ethical system, and the view of the world coming from their other tradition they migth claim they are both a taoist and a christian/buddhist/jew. But some part of the taoism have been lost in the process. Since morality and ethic is so unique in taoism respect to the other organized religion, it is commonly lost. Usually the reasoning process goes like this: I know nothing about this (this is not always admitted, I was very happy when Bruce started teaching about morality in taoism, I knew nothing about that before, and I even ignored my own ignorance), in all those other traditions this is how it works, thus it should work like this in taoism, too. Which is ok as an educated guess. But it is nothing more, and in this case it does happen to be wrong. Ok, talk to you later. Pietro P.S. My computer is kaput, so I am using a friend computer, but I might have problem logging in until after easter.

I think Confucio came out with a different time depending on your age. So kids in their teens are ok doing it every day (not that they wouldn't if Confucio said so ). But then it became progressively longer. After age 100 you were not supposed to come anymore. It would be interesting to find this table.

My friend, I moved to Ireland 3 weeks ago after having submitted the PhD. I am here, feeling basically in heaven. Dublin is a great city, there is a PU lair, one of the best Taoist teachers I ever had, and a great work. I am starting to feel scared, so well it is going. Actually I am am a firm believer that I should be willing to do for a woman what I ask her to do to me. And since I like my gfs with their pubic hair shaved, I took as a requirement to be willing to shave my pubic hair.

First of all I would like to point out that Thomas Cleary is not a Taoist, he is a translatior of taoists texts. But he also (mainly) translates Buddhists texts, Confucianists and Muslim. So, please, I need to ask you to refrain from using him as a source for I would just not consider the citation relevant on the base that the translator is looking at Taoism from outside in, and not from inside in. Everything that I say please consider it as coming from what I learned from my teacher, Master Bruce Kumar Frantzis. Who is a Master, Taoist Priest, Taoist Lineage holder. If I add anything that is not coming from him (directly or indirectly -his students-), I shall point it out.[in brackets] I would also like to divide between taoism and neo-taoism. Neo-taoism, as you know (because of the references that you make) came out about 1000 years ago, by the joining of Taoist Alchemy, Taoist Qi Gung, Confucianist morality, and Buddhist empty mind meditations (and probably more).[shambhala guide to Taoism] I am, and study, Taoism, not Neo-taoism. My teacher is a Taoist teacher. His teacher was both a taoist and a neo-taoist, as he was proficient in both ways. He was also a buddhist and a confucianist. Quite a remarkable person. Now the topic of sex and taoism is an interesting one. The first aim in taoism is to achieve a state of balance; that is a state where everything is the same. In that state you can then let your natural spontaneity come out. In this respect having things that are tabu, is itself a tabu. In the sense that if you have something that you naturally want to do, then you should go forward and do it. This does not mean to do anything that passes through your head. But it does mean to do things you have a strong impulse to do. So throwing yourself from the window just because the thought has passed in this moment in your head, is not enough to do it. Wanting to have sex, is for the great majority of human being a natural desire. As such it should be kept. Where this teaching is weak, is when you have a person. and a few there are, for whom killing is in their nature. It is rare, but as we were told, it does happen, and when this happens, it is a problem. But for most of us this is not the case, and any homicidal or suicidal tendency come from blockages we have. That is they can be dissolved away. Now sex is something that most people want to naturally have. But not everybody! According to various statistics (I can't back it up with the stats, this is coming from Bruce lesson), not everybody enjoys sex. Many women never reach orgasm, and there is about a 20% of people who really don't care about sex. Although often in those 20% you will find many who say thay want to have sex, or who think it is so, just to be then deluded when they do it. It is their nature. Or you might say, it is NOT in their nature. Among the people who like to have sex, you have also various type of people. People who like to be in a single relationship (often, but not always or only, the wood type), and people who like to have multiple relationship, or just no relationship at all, and just a series of one night stands. All this is inside our nature, and in Taoism all this is considered to be ok. So people are expected to find out what kind of sexual relationship they naturally find themselves happy with, and have them. When my teacher said to his teacher, "I want to be like you", he was answered that he should not, and he should instead follow his nature. Sex, on that occasion was taken as an example, as his teacher was a natural celibate, who would only have sex to perform his Confucianist duty (procreation). My teacher wasn't, isn't, and it will not be celibate by any definition of celibacy you can come up with. And all this bring on the point of right hand taoists, center-taoists, and left hand taoists. Where right hand taoists, are taoists who are naturally celibate. Left hand taoists are taoists who have a lot of sex. You might find them in orgies, or having multiple partners. And center taoists are taoists like Michael Winn [Winn, personal comunicatio, 1996, Frank Allen, 96-2002, & Frantzis], who have one relationship, are often married, and often you would not distinguish them from normal, non taoists folks. So, now in China, when people speak about my teacher and his teacher, they quite simply say: oh yes, the old master was a right hand taoist, and the new master is a left hand taoist. Full stop. Period. End note. There is NO judgement on this. From the Taoists. Now, where does judgememnt come in. As you have right and left taoists, you also have right and left paths. That is, you have schools that use right hand method, schools that use left hand methods, and schools that use both (but generally avoiding practices that are too extreeme). But please understand that Taoists don't have the "thou shall not lie" sin. Not because they did not believe in honesty, but because they are quite pragmatic people, and understand that not lieing in China, can sometimes be a form of suicide. And since going around and saying that you are a left hand taoist can bring you problems (not from other taoists, but from magistrates, officials & confucianists), the left hand taoists are somehow secluded. So, while right hand groups will have practices where you are not going to ejaculate at all for ... days. Left hand taoists will have very different practices. They too might not ejaculate from time to time. Bot not always. The practices I made references before, where a man where to have sex with 1000 women before his first relationship, was one of this. There are many others. Where all this brings you to is to a state where you really, fully, totally, no doubt left, no maybe, understand that sex is just something natural that happens between human beings. Other practices might be, for example, being present when a person you fancy is having sex with someone else. Be present and just dissolve all that is coming up. All the anger, the frustration, the desire. In this respect sex is seen as conducive toward enlightenment. But please do understand, because I can already see you picking up the whip, the chain to torture yourself a bit to reach enlightenment. In the taoist path, as it has been presented by my teacher, they say: "you give to the people what they want... and eventually they will want what they need". It is a very different teaching from the Buddhist, the Christian, and any other religion I came across with. Pietro

So your serious offer wasn't that serious after all. Seems to be ok in either way. Take care, Pietro

Look, if you girls are interested I can teach a dual-cultivation workshop. Generally those are done with couple coming, but then everybody makes love only with their own partner, while in this case we would all change partners often, which would give to all experience of how passing energy, and dual cultivation is different depending on the partner you find yourself with. Let me know if you girls are interested, and in case how many girls would be present, as we will need to set up the male love-force. Take care, Pietro

explanation avoided

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not really. This is like asking if you would be limiting yourself by starting a house from the foundations. You need to start somwhere, and it is better (according to taoism) to start from something you can touch and feel, and then expand. The definition of body also is not fixed. You start from your phisical body. Once you are feeling your energetic body you are already beyond your mere phyisical body. At the level of your emotional body you are, according to some school, going as far out as the stars you can see with a naked eye. And then on and on it goes, until your reach the body of the Tao. So, no, you are not limiting yourself.

there is no need of a who. Awareness just is.

THE awareness is getting into THIS body (finger pointing). What need there is of a 'whos'?

Then welcome to taoism I don't know. Is a picture a friend gave me because I use to have a long beard.

answer not posted

Fascinating, and please send my regards to David. Just say from Pietro. BTW, how could David manage to 'live' in China for 15 years when the last time I saw him was about 8 years ago, and he still haven't started living in China. And in the meantime I heard he was in Russia, Sweden (or was it Danmark) and generally all over the place. Was he living there with his Yang body? Cheers, Pietro

Hmm, Victor Mair translation of Chuang Tzu is the one I prefer(Title: wandering on the way). You probably should invest in a good translation of Journay to the West. As in a complete translation, That is 3 books. Not the micro versions. I got one here of the Foreign Language Press Beijing, edition. It is beautiful because side by side to the story you find some times poems that has been added to describe particular pieces that seems (and probably are) taoist formulas by themselves. I got a lot of fun reading: Laughing at the tao. Which is a book from the middle ages of a scholar tearing down taoist believes. (F* hell, only one is available from amazon for 370$!!! I should consider selling mine ) You MUST have some good translation of the secret of the golden flower. Although I am not sure how the cleary translation is. And here the expert of this book is Ron Jeremy (signs at Paolino Moon Luna on the HT discussion board), if you can stand the stink. I would add a good history of taoism. The Shambhala Guide to Taoism is not bad. I don't know about the others. Cultivating Stillness (Eva Wong), is considered a classic. I remember a taoist friend of mine, who after some years came to me and said he finally ended Cultivating Stillness. Considering that it is a tiny book, you realise the level of depth that each line posses. Vitality, Energy, Spirit: A Taoist Sourcebook I find it excellent as a source of some selected texts. Although Cleary has a very definite type of translation which many taoists thinks betrays to true spirit of some texts. Now the The Taoist Experience: An Anthology is very good. I would suggest that you keep it on the side, while you are reading The Shambhala guide to taoism. In this way when your read that in this and that period this kind of meditation were being used, you can find here the actual description. The Complete I Ching: The Definitive Translation by the Taoist Master Alfred Huang is considered a good one. Thos are mostly taoist books. Some very important are missing, for example I think there was a translation around of the triplex unit which is considered to be one of the most important texts in alchemical taoism. It might be inside The Jade Emperor's Mind Seal Classic: The Taoist Guide to Health, Longevity, and Immortality (Paperback) by Stuart Alve Olson (Author) by I am not sure. Also at home in Italy I have a small book about breathing, and it came out that it was the translation of an ancient taoist text, of about 1600 years ago. Well inside I could find a description of the 6 healing sounds, which I got very excited when I did. Oh gosh, I was also forgetting all the Understanding Reality book, The Inner Teachings of Taoism, 7 Taoists masters. Then you have books ABOUT taoism. That is books from people who describe taoism. And here I would just put a couple of books: The Taoist Body, is quite a good book. I haven't yet read much of it, only a couple of chapters, but was fascinating. Isabelle Robinet seem to be a very good scholar who had studied taoism, and wrote a certain number of books. There should be one about taoist meditation, although I don't know if it has been translated in English. (original was in French, and I read it in Italian) And to conclude from a Taoist of our times I would also add Thoureau: Walden there is also the description of his meeting with a female immortal inside. Nice stories: opening the dragon gate, The Magus of Java (although I never ended it) About zen: The blue cliff record Father Paul would love this, if he does not already know it by Heart. About martial arts: The book of five rings, The art of war What shall I say: good reading

well, if you empty the mind you also empty it of the bs they are putting inside. This is why I have always strong suspicion toward any 'religion', cult, sect, group, tradition who advocates NOT doing meditation.