Pietro

Interesting that we keep hearing of women loving those chairs and not of men... I have one of those zazen chair. Infact I have two. I use to have one in Italy, heavy, made of steel, and perfect. I loved it. I could program on it for hours and I would not get distracted at all. But it weighted too much to bring it. So once I arrived here I found another one made of wood for sale used. This was also not of a fixed height. As you can regulate the distance between the plate under the ass and the floor. Well this second chair is terrible. I have tried many times but always failed to use it for more than few minutes. First of all it is too short. My feet fall right on the wooden pole behind it making it increadbly unconfortable. Then also the distance between the bum and the knees is too short. It costed me only 5 euro but I could as well have thrown that money away. The other costed me much more (I don't remember how much, but hundreds), and it was absolutely perfect. And the take away message is: don't buy a healthy chair unless you can experiment it for some hours before. Oh, I also went to the apothecary in front of the office. The sell 75 cm yoga balls for 25 euro and a sort of round base that you can put under it for another 27 euro. But the ball is not inflated so I cannot try it. :/ Pietro

On Ebay I could only find 3 such chair being sold: http://tagbay.net/index.php?doPopTagSearch...opTag=ballchair (BTW did I told you about tagaby? Is the new project I am working on that should make me rich) And the seller of one is from Ashville The price seems to be between 90$ and 200$. I wonder if it wouldn't make sense to just build one. Some seem to be built with a yoga ball on a base. The yoga ball seem to cost some 30$ new, and much less used. But all those seem quite different from this object: http://www.bindependent.com/cgi-bin/shoppe...tion&key=eeb129

Ok, although I am quite busy at the moment, I managed to make a basic mind map of the first of four stags. The four stages are 1 learning the form, 2, push hands, 3, between push hands and sparring, 4, sparring and fighting. The mind map is here: http://taotewiki.net/TaiJiMindMap If you click on a node it should open up in its sub nodes. All clear? Pietro

At the moment Bruce does not take disciples, so I don't think anybody can fairly make such a claim. Yet there are 5 top students right now to whom he teaches more stuff, as he sais, just in case the next plane he takes falls. Still they are not disciples, just students. At the moment his top student (according to Bruce, Boston, 2004) in Tai Ji is Brian Cooper. Who is also one of the 5. Now this is quite interesting, because Brian is good, but not the best technically. There is another Tai Ji instructor in Crete (for example) who is way better technically, at least at mine (and Brian's) eyes. And still Bruce sais "My number one instructor in Tai Ji is Brian". I suspect it has more to do with personal maturity than with anything else. Brian is the same age of Bruce and really does not give a damn about being his top student or his last student, provided he is taught. Most of the other instructor are much younger, and would give an arm to have that level of recognition.

Yes, that was my sensation too. He said few times (altthough not always very openly, to avoid offending people) that when you looked at O'Sensei with a martial art eye "it was very clear that what he was doing was" (coming from) "Ba Gua Chan". It made me wonder why would someone teach a system unrooting it, if this is what O'Sensei did. But the ethical side of Aikido seems to be very strong, and if you want to impose a very secific footprint on a martial art in a country that might be the best way to do it. But then why not teach the energy practice that goes with it (for I keep on hearing people saying that in Aikido they speak about energy, but don't really learn it)? I don't know.

I'll see what I can do. Maybe in the week end I'll try to draw a mind map. That is something I wanted to do in any case. Would freemind be ok? Yes, in our last workshop he literally told us: this time I taught you as disciples are taught. I did this because 1) there is a number of people here who could look at me in the eyes and say: yes I stand for 1 hour a day 2) I was permitted by having been adopted 3) I am a bridge between east and west, and I have the responsability thatthose things arive fully in the west. The disciple tradition is not working so much in the east, as each generation is getting weaker (I heard the same from the Yi Quan master, cited before). While in the west when you study a topic at the university you are told the whole of it, anywhere you go. This is why western academic culture is growng while this is shrinking. I have no doubt that disciples are learning more in 1 year than devoted student in 20. I have seen the effect of those teaching are having in my body. Oh, btw, we have also been told that to become a disciple you sometimes have to hit the pavement with your forehead so hard that blood comes out... I hope your teacher will not require that from you. Just to clarify, before the obvious question will follow. No, Bruce is not teaching everything he knows. He is just teaching more than a traditional teacher would, for the reasons explained above. But always safe and secure practices. Well, he said something about: "no one in the original village is happy about the state of the art aronud the world right now". Same here. I see tai ji as just necessary to build a good base for meditation. It is too easy to get self deluded in a pure path of meditation. A bit like the difference between Go and meditation. People can think, in meditation that they are right. If you play go you cannot make that mistake. The result of the game tells you your real level of understanding. It's ok, to have 10 minutes and then a lifetime. Better than a lifetime of argument, and 10 minutes of friendship, but if you want we can make an effort and try to get ahead here on the board More seriously, there is a number of threads in my life that seem to lead there. Taoism is just one of them. Another big one is Go, and I am reading right now a book in english, translated from Japanese, about some high level player (Go Seigen, among others) going to China looking for informations about the origins of Go. If I go, and if you will still be on this board at the time, I will surely contact you. Pietro

Others I have seen the ones with the hands in front of the kidneys, hands on the side with palms facing out, and of course all the ones working with heaven energy or with the upper tan tien have the hands high above the head. But for most of them I have no idea what their effect would be and no desire for now to be my own guinea pig. This sounds extremly similar to what Bruce does when he gives the personal position during spiraling workshop. Ahime, no spiraling in Europe in 2006. Interesting. At the moment I am doing my last 5 minutes back with the hands by the side, but with the palm facing down. I didscovered this position when I was trying some minutes on each posture of the beginning of Tai Ji, and interestingly after 5 minutes in this position I feel PERFECTLY OK with the energy. I feel so normal I can sit in front of a computer, chat, have a shower, or do anything I normally would not do immedialtly after a session. That was a little breakthrough. But I might see if some sitting helps / is-helped. I really think you need to have them both, but of course the different amount will vary, as you say. Of course standing can be used as therapy, and as a base for spiritual practice. For the rest, I am too ignorant to speak. Sorry. Just a clarification. When you say that your teacher's teacher does no standing, do you intend that it does no standing now (and you are unsure about the past), or that he never did standing? The truth, at this point, is that I don't know. I have seen the effect that standing is having on my body. I have seen my desire to do Tai Ji go to sleep, as I feel that, for now, I would not be able to do it with the same structure that I have in standing. I have heard my teacher speak about the 200 postures, and it makes sense to me from a health POV, but I also realise that therapy is (objectively ) a necessary stage in the quest for enlightenment. I know balancing my sexual energy is important in going on, and I don't think I can do it without building my deep yin. When I asked how to do that I was told to stand in a posture. Are there other ways? Probably, but I don't know them: there are many forms of therapy. I read the book about the power of internal martial arts and study with his author. He never denied anything from that book. You know the book, and over there it describes the steps that a tai ji man goes through. I also have seen many people allegedly being very good. And sometimes hiding information. In China there is a big tradition about needing to be a disciple to be taught the real thing. And Bruce told us that the only reason why he can teach us some things is because he was adopted in a traditional way as 'son' from his last teacher. If he was a disciple he would have been tied by promises. Have you considered going back from the village where Tai Ji was coming from? Going back to the roots might at this point clarify. Still, I would say, keep on studying with your teacher and keep your ears open for different bells. Zhang Sanfeng is a mythological figure, and not everybody even agrees if he really existed or not. So I would not take him as an historical test case. Regarding Yang Chengfu, if you want I could ask Bruce, next time that I see him, if he knows (thinks, believes) that he was doing standing. Also people might to a practice when they are young and not when they are old. That is true also with standing. So the fact that he did not do it when he was old and famous does not say much. Allen, I am happy you joined this strange group of Taoists on the net, and maybe one day I might go to China, and you might be of much help, or we might just meet and have a chat. I tried to answer as much as I could, but my knowledge is very limited, and I only see my teacher twice a year, when I also have to compete for his time with about 40 other students. Still I am happy for your questions. Pietro

I would like to jump in, without having read all that was said before. But noticing this thread and the thread on truth, both started from Lozen, may I recomend to you, Lozen, the autobiography of Gandhi, called: My experiments with the Truth" I finished reading it few weeks ago and found it very interesting. Also, are you sure of your friend knew he would have been killed he would have rather been violent and defend itself? Suppose he had the time to deeply meditate on the topic. He seemed to have made the transition while being in integrity with his believes. Some people get violent in moment like this, and (some) later regret it. So, while I can understand the sadness for losing a friend, he is also a person who reached the end of his life with integrity. As we are all (exclusion made for a few alchemists) going to die, that's really not bad.

Very interesting. It made me wonder if this system did influence Eric when he wrote his book. After all the structure in which the material is presented is very similar: 14 lessons. Building up in complexity and depth, with some excercise that just build up from the firts week, every week, and others that are a pre requisite for mre advanced stuff, that are presented. And E. was into magic. So he might have thought about using this template to teach the Taoist material. hmmm

Very interesting post, thank you. The symptioms remind me of the symptoms I get when I eat too much raw meat, and raw eggs and not enough celery (or other green thing) juice. Maybe I could find some magnesium or similar for when I go on a trip. It's always such a pain to be dependent on making juices every day.

Precisely! And that's where we disagreed, with me claiming it is an objective fact, and Cameron saying a subjective one.

Yeah, I would agree. I often heard that if the aim is the spirit tha seated is more efficient. If you are instead working on the body, than standing is much better. Nevertheless I sometimes find some deep seated blockages when I stand that I just don't have the inner strength to deal with them while standing (I would faint), so I seat and still work on the physical body.

Oh, that's easy. We got into the 1 vs 200 postures because my teacher said standing was part of an old bigger system which comprised 200 postures. And I (silly me !) refered back. I then also said how 1 single posture was not enough because out of practicing a single posture I had problems. I then added wood to the fire by adding that each end position of the movements in Tai Ji could be taken as a posture, and then completed the work by pouring gasoline saying that different postures had different effect, like rising the energy, lowering it, sending it to a certain organ or dan dien, or out from a certain place. Of course that is all a differentiation of the One. But how useful is that? - "You just do the One posture for 3 months, closing your practice with the One posture. You then work for another year on the One posture until you are able to send the energy to the liver and then from the liver, changing posture from the One posture to the One posture you send it to the heart. But this time you use the One posture to close your practice"

not much, just some personal and anedotic experiences. They were really helpful in my recovery from vegetarianism 3 years ago. When I am in chaste periods I lose desire for them. And when I eat them I need to make extra attention to take celery juices to balance their acidic In theory raw eggs are better if they are fertile, but those are really hard to find unless you live near a farm. Sex actors drink them by the half dozen.

I admit my total ignorance on the topic, but wouldn't drinking a raw egg help?

Hello Cameron, I ignore what BP Chan teaches, but let's try not to confuse things, especially what each of us has said, since we are so lucky to have a record. What I said is : This sais nothing of the 200 postures, which is a system in itself. If BP Chan teaches Tai Ji starting from standing good for him and for his students. If he only teaches 4 postures, that's good, better than teaching only 1. I DID not say that only if you learn the whole 200 postures can you learn Tai Ji. That is simply false. But it is true that most of the position (all?) in Tai Ji, and most of the postures are one and the same thing. Thus, if your teacher only teaches 4 postures, but then teaches you to stand in various Tai Ji postures to develop the position, here you go, you are having the postures (some, not all 200, as you don't need them all to learn Tai Ji), just with another name. If the teacher does not teach standing in the various postures, AND does not teach any but 4 postures, I do have doubts on the system. This regardless of how famous the system is. And not beacuse my teacher said so and so, but because of what I felt, and I am feeling growing in me, daily, from when in November I started to integrate those extra information. If this makes you feel better, good. If it doesn't, amen. After all we are following different teachers for a reason and it is an old truth that every martial art student honestly believes his school to be the best. If we didn't we would change school. And thus still be in the school we believe is the best.

I am sorry, but what do you know about what was Liu interested in? A lineage holder, by definition is a person who has the responsability to pass the whole information of a particular taoist sect to the next generation, this to avoid it being watered down as time goes by. This requires those people to know to know all aspects of the art, even those they might themselves not be interested in, or might not be releavant for this historical time. Also why do everybody keep on speaking about the 'special powers'. WTF! By my understanding maybe 50 of the 200 postures were adressing that. You would still have 150 postures for the rest.

Fair enough, challenge accepted. I learned this from Bruce Kumar Frantzis. He is a taoist master and lineage holder. He learned (actually relearned) what he teaches from Liu Huang Ching, who was a well known figure in Bei Jing, Master, Lineage Holder and head of a Taoist Sect. He also was both a Confucianist and a Buddhist, but this is irrelevant to our present discussion. When Bruce got to know Liu, Bruce was already at an advanced level and Liu only accepted to teach him because of a dream he had that night. When they went to speak about standing Liu asked Bruce what he already knew. As Bruce described the various element he has gathered from teachers around China, Liu finally conceeded: Ok you have all the pieces, but you do realise that this is an extreemly uneducated way to learn? Yes, but did I had any choise No, but would you like to relearn everything in the correct sequence and the correct way? So Liu reteached to Bruce all the elements that compose the standing practice. Accoding to Bruce there is no one outside of China, in this moment that teaches the whole set of the 200 postures. Bruce knows them but he does not teches them either. To us the psychic channels elements were given as an en-passant information, just telling us how far did the rabbit hole go, and why asking to know the full set was not an option. the fact that your teacher did not say nothing about them does not necessarily mean that they ignore it: also Bruce did not spoke about "standing postures to open the psychic channels" for more than a decade. But he often spoke about how in Taoist meditation it is possible to connect various points in the brain, how that is extreemly dangerous as (he said) some combinations would give you 'powers' but all the others would make you mad in a way that no one could recover you. I am just repeating what's in his books. There are 30 points. This makes for about 2^(15*30) combinations. Of those maybe 10 or a 100 are ok. This makes 1 on 3*(10^133) circa. If you want to try you do it FULLY on your responsability. And no, I don't think that Bruce himself knows what combinations are feasible. I don't think I can help you much with this. You know how Chia has the ethical position of keeping nothing for himself, and teach everything? Well Bruce has the ethical position of teach pubblicly only material that is safe. Since I only took public courses I was not exposed to that info (only to the fact that it does exist). If I were exposed to that kind of info, I probably would not tell you pubblicly too, as this might have prevented me from learning more from Bruce. But, when I started standing every day I soon was standing with the hands above my heart in the classical tree position. I developed a blockage in the heart, and Frank Allen, told me to go back and stand with the hands by the side. After 6 months the blockage was totally gone, and measurement taken with that computer that measures your aura (or so it claims) gave a fully white energy for my heart. While we were learning standing we were briefly told about how by twisting the tendons around the arms it is possible to open (or was it, it helps open) the skull plates. Skulls of practitioner with skull plates not perfectly sealed have been found. Chia has one in his meditation center, too. To show all this Bruce sometimes moves his skull plates. Before he always asks for the doctors in the room to come near and then tell if they skulls are effectively moving. I have seen this 2 times, and both times the doctors said, "yes it is happening, it shouldn't but it is". I suppose this is the kind of technique you don't want to teach around. Now let's go to Xing Yi. I have a book (not here, you have to trust me on this) about one of the main master from Xing Yi. At the beginning of the century he changed the hand position in San-Ti, from extended out, to fingers pointing up. This because he said the first is better for fighting, but it disperse too much energy. Since people were now practicing San ti for health, the change made sense. Speaking about how to develop Fa Jin. Yes he showed us that position. It was at the end of the fifth day and I was cooked, and not particularly interested in that. It was a sort of tree position (oh my god, now you will assume that everything is a modification of the tree position ), but the hands were twisted. I am not going to describe the way the hands were twisted, but if we meet or you IM me I shall be happy to tell you were you can find a picture of it. The info was given as an answer to a question from an advanced student: Ralph Herber, who was hosting the event. If you contact him you could probably ask more details, as he was suggested from Bruce to actually try this out. For me it was all way above my hair. When Bruce teaches spiralling he usually takes the students one by one and assigns to each a personal position that is supposed to balance his personal imbalances or just bring the person easier to the next level of the practice. I haven't done the course (is considered not a basic one) yet, although by now I am eager to do it. But I have seen people practicing in their personal postures, and believe me, you do have a wide variety over there. I hope you realise, sir, that science is based on reproducibility and measurability. In standing this would mean having a statistical significant set of people willing to stand for about an hour a day, for many days, if not months. All this while you need personal corrections OR you need to take a group of people who already practice taoist arts and know how to stand. Those people would make the whole test fairly inconsistent as any 'unaverage' result might be attributed to their strangeness. Also when you make a double blind you need to have an equivalent body of people who are not doing the practice, but believe they are. This is not easy too, as if you take practitioners, they know how to stand. And if you take non-practitioners, and place them in a wrong standing position for 1 hour a day they would probably develop a structure too. So you would only test for the specific effect of a posture and not for the general effects of standing. Of course you could measure Bruce or other masters before and after a session of standing, and this has been done. I remember the measurement taken on Chia before and after doing the sounds. But what does this tells us? Just that this particular person had those measurements. Considering the level of control that those people have on their body even I wouldn't sign that the reason is in technique alone, unless I personally trusted that they would not alter the state of their bodies in other ways (also physical, like squeezing an organ). So we would have to stand on trust. A fairly unstable base for a scientific test, you would agree. And not significantly different from where we started. Does all this say that standing has no scientific base? Yes, indeed, for now it does. Does it say that standing will never have a scientific base? No, maybe one day we might find a way to test for all those things. And then we will know. In the meantime we have to use anedocte and instructions from people who supposedly are more knowledgeable than us in it. And to conclude, and I am speaking here as a scientist, Science does not cover the whole of reality, and never will. And I have no problem with that. Do you? Thanks, Pietro Edited to add calculation.

But standing is not the same as embracing the tree. Embracing the tree is just one of the standing postures. As we were tought the whole system included 200 postures, and they are generally not teached to people who are not disciples. This because some of those postures include postures to open the psychic channels in the brain. Not everybodies brain can take that, and learning that includes learning the preparatory practices, what can go wrong, how to spot if something is going wrong and how to fix it. So it should come no surprise that finding a person who knows the whole system is verh hard. And one that is willing to teach you the whole system is, at the moment, nearly impossible. Still taking away the most dangerous postures there are still many other postures thar should be known, studied and practiced. Each having a different effect in the body. Depending if you want to raise the energy or ground it. If you want to concentrate the energy (and where, TT, internal organ, bones, ...), or disperse it. Develop stability or develop Fa Jin. Open the MC. Send the energy to a particular organ and so on. According to Bruce (and I have no reason to doubt him), when people started to connect the postures Tai Ji was born. Most (all?) of the standing postures are just Tai Ji positions, used as postures. So Single Whip is the most yang position and is used to raise the energy (or was it expand it?). The opening with the hands raising raises the energy. If I were in a Tai Ji school and they were not teaching ZZ I probably would change school. There is also a way to practice Tai Ji where you stay in each definite posture between 5 and 15 minutes, and in each passage posture between 1 and 5. The details are in the book: "the secret of internal martial arts". A must have. Play Guitar is the most yin position, and when I asked Bruce what posture should I use to develop my deep yin he said Play the Lute (Yang Style)/Play Guitar (Wu style). For this reason I asked Yoda what posture was he using during his chastity period. Saying, "I have been doing standing" is like saying "I took a pill". Which? For a period I tried to use play guitar to see if it was enough to balance my rising sexuality. It wasn't. But it might be enough if I start working with that many months before I start building up. Then the deep yin would be firmly estabilished. It's in my totest list. BTW, Yi Quan teaches 6 of those 200 postures, and that alone is more balanced than doing only one. It wouldn't be a bad thing to start to write down a list of standing postures (the safe ones at least), and their relative effect.

I know, I am not getting much exposure over there. I would probably get more if I move it as a sub domain of pietrosperoni.it. But there are some technicalities that has to be solved before. As for the journal: thanks, but no thanks. In the meantime... you are welcome to read it all two times

Standing Workshop from Bruce. 5 days, Germany, November 2005. Unfortunately Bruce takes down the pages describing the workshop once the year is over, so I have no page to address you too. But you have my notes available, and there is pretty much everything over there.

Ehm, actually if you read my blog you would have gotten it two months ago.

Wow, that's such a complimen! Thank you. I started copying one of the key tables from Campbell Douglass book. It shows the legal and medical differences between Past. milk and Raw milk. My Milk Page the table is very long and it will take me some days to complete it. A must read if you have doubts on raw milk is supplemental report Which is part of the trial to keep rea milk accessible in California. More documents available here. There is a number of cases of 'documented' epidemics' where a number of assumption where made to reach the conclusion. The fact that unpasteurizer milk produced following the health guidelines is dangerous is simply not true. Pasteurized one is inferior quality. Of course if you are a big hairy man you thrive in bacteria and this will make you stronger, so you care even less about cleanliness of milk. And, Leo, now I have a question, if you were to chose between taking pill A and pill B, knowing that pill A will give you no illness for the first 20 years, than allergies with 10% probability, food intollerance with 60% probability (what eventually happened to me) and finally after 45 years osteoporosis with 60% probability, cancer with 40% probability, and arteriosclerosis with 30% probability. The numbers I just invented to make the point, the illness not. I can enter into details on how each of those is tied to Pasteurized milk consumption. While the second will give you none of those BUT with a 0.1% probability might give you an infection the first time, and the probability decreases every time you use it, which would you chose. And if the long time effect of pill A have not been studied (they are starting to be right now, but it is not mainstream science yet), in a society with mass comunication thet echoes every case of pill B, wich one would the media suggest. You don't need a cospiracy to have mass fooling. Just simple statistics. I need to go, as today is wednesday and fresh raw link arrives at the health store. If I don't go there in time it might all be gone.