findley

I was doing well with the practice, until recently... I had assumed that perhaps my troubles were due to personal frustrations-- however I feel I had only fallen subject to another pitfall, of a certain conceptualization of the Mysterious Pass-- By clinging to the concept that it is formless, intangible, and without manifestation-- I had refused to let my 'attention' rest on anything manifest, in opening the gate. This, of course, is impossible. While the Mysterious Pass is, indeed, absolutely non-manifest-- one's attention exists simultaneously with it. (This is perhaps key to the concept, that it is by means of the Mysterious Pass that one is able to enter into a state of Wu-Wei.) I have also lost the sense of subtle bliss in my heart. Therefore, when one cultivates the Mysterious Pass, one must allow the attention to rest somewhere ! -You cannot attempt to rest the attention on the Mysterious Pass itself, which is impossible ! I think that this correlates to a passage in the Secret of the Golden Flower, where-in it discusses 'the light' and 'turning the light around'-- I believe I was, with difficulty, tapping into 'the light', yet failing to 'turn it around'. So, now I am remembering to do what I did before-- climbing out of yet another pitfall along the way. Resting my attention again on my heart, while I cultivate the Mysterious Pass, I should quickly restore that subtle bliss. . . PS --'resting your attention' on your heart, (or dan tien, or mid-brow... I choose heart...) should be SOFT, and SUBTLE. 'resting your attention' is not 'fixating' your attention. It is not like you were using your attention to complete the microcosmic orbit, or induce kundalini rushes or anything. be gentle.

I do not think you are correct in your interpretation of the Secret of the Golden Flower. The breath, for example... is at most only a means of quieting the mind, for a beginner in meditation. That you have developed any emphasis and technique on the breath, I think contradicts the teachings in the book. -Am I wrong?

Gosh, you know... testimonials of cancer cured are extraordinary. Honestly, extraordinary. I remember, even, the news program addressing Chunyi Lin's mastery. However... may I ask a personal question, Drew... Even with the bliss... the telekinesis, the precognition... The capacity to heal... Do you feel... ...enlightened? really? I feel that an enlightened person would know such a thing, 'balls to bones'. I for one... I feel sometimes feel so insecure in my own path, that I am nowhere near your mastery. But on the other hand... I would never want to live the way you do. Full Lotus throughout the day. incessant fasting. -Is it true you work at a McDonalds? I would simply just not be willing to do that. I think, I would sooner choose to live another life. Have I lost (what I thought was,) a genuine yearning for enlightenment? What are you thoughts on this...?

Zhou Ming-Dao-- thank you so much for your advice. sincerely: thank you. I believe I understand what you mean by using form to reach formlessness. Contemplating it for a moment, (I will have to try and carry this piece of advice with me for some time,)-- --I believe that one of the primary means I have been using to tap into the mysterious way, is by addressing manifest reality around me, as it is-- and allowing just this to achieve formlessness. I understand that you probably do not mean to imply 'manifest reality' as is as a method of 'form', but do you think that perhaps it should still work? For example, I love to practice in public places, such as a coffee-shop-- I feel that my form, my body, my mind, are reflected back at me by the mind and body of others. This has led me, on occasion, to successful dwelling in formlessness. -Do you think that this could serve as an acceptable means (of 'form',) to achieve formlessness? Manifest reality, as form, is of course no better a 'contrast' to formlessness, afterall? --- I am so hesitant to get into other schools of thought, for fear that they may muddle or blind me even more so than I already am. However, I'll google right away the Lankavatara Sutra, and remember that I need this book, (when I can afford it.) I mean, using astral projection as a means to formlessness seems to me so backwards a path-- how much effort I would have to waste just learning to astral project ! Though, I am sure there may be contained more direct, subtler methods to such attainment? In the meantime, I will struggle. and remember not to struggle. if you know what I mean This is the one of the hardest things I have ever tried to do, in regards to spiritual practice. ...but then, if we master the opening of the Mysterious Gate... I sincerely believe there entails enlightenment. I feel as though, at least I have forgotten energy practice and have learned of a way unto genuine enlightenment.

These are amazing stories.. ..is there any way I can validate them, for myself?

haha, well-- I well ask them for their wisdom concerning enlightenment-- or the key to immortality. I will ask them to illuminate the 'Secret of the Golden Flower'; seeking their understanding of the Mysterious Pass. If they do not emphasize the concept of the Mysterious Pass, nor speak the language of the Tao Te Ching, (likely, giving me answers concerning energetic practices,) ...I will understand that they are liars. I think I can narrow my search, however, by seeking teachers of specific texts, primarily of the 'Secret of the Golden Flower,' but perhaps other texts pertaining to the school of Complete Reality. I don't think I will be hyper-critical myself, but just rather let them speak for themselves. ...otherwise... Virtually anyone has the capacity to teach a long and short form of Tai-Chi, that I can take back to Memphis and make some $$$ teaching it myself I am so bad ! If I do not find a teacher who has mastered the Mysterious Pass, (or otherwise convinces me of his enlightenment,) then I will be hold work-shops on that subject, a la the Secret of the Golden Flower and Tao Te Ching, on my own accord. If I am really lucky, and do a good job of tending my own being towards the Mysterious Pass, mayhaps a teacher will find me? who is Lin Aiwei ? a taobum?

what ... ah.... you know...... ....is it?

"This sham qigong master thought if he could not answer this question, people would know he was a sham. Therefore, he dared to make up a story, saying that the One Aperture of the Mysterious Pass was at the tip of one's penis." -I look forward to getting to beijing

Ah, well old man, I ignored your posts because the 'facts' regarding my behavior are still irrelevant regarding the topic of discussion. I do fail to meet the behavioral standards of the sage, and I am not enlightened. I would be further back along the way if I tried to mimic the sage. Perhaps you are right. I would still yet support energetic practices, however merely as supplementary practices-- not as ways unto enlightenment in themselves. (wherein lies their great fault; Chia's systems may offer a temporal advantage in regards to health, [efficient or not,] however it was also presented as a means to enlightenment and immortality.) If there is an energetic system that is presented as a 'complete' system of enlightenment, however does not touch upon the concept of the Mysterious Pass-- I am here charging that they are fraudulent ways, established and perpetuated by fools and liars. I suppose that it is very possible for an energetic practice to enhance the practitioners capacity to recognize the Mysterious Pass-- however I find that it is the case, that they instead tend to BLIND the practitioner from the genuine path. To illustrate with an example: it is my opinion that Zen practitioners are actually less likely to recognize the Mysterious Pass, because they are more likely to CLING to zen traditions, rituals, and 'emptiness'. It is like this.

LOL magitek, thank you ! I usually am just insulting to a prove a point in regards to dogmatism. Though, in this thread I have been relaying a sense of deep-seated hatred and resentment to others whom I believe fail to be logical in regards to their pursuits. I am further encouraged by the idea that any who should promote and defend a practice, are responsible, (read: guilty,) for influencing others into their 'cult-think'. I do not usually believe in control, or contrivance of behavior-- even when such entails mimic'ing characteristics 'enlightenment'. If you notice reading through this thread, the attacks against me are made on a personal level, against my character, my history, or so on-- and they have failed entirely to level themselves to relevant discussion of the topic at hand. (which has been mostly ignored.) Vortex, in that case, I am sorry. I am sure you will understand if I have been put into a bad mood. I am sorry, I cannot explain the mysterious pass any further, only suggest you experiment and study classic texts I refer to. It is, indeed though, a 'practice that is not a practice'.

I am offended, vortex, that this is the second time you have asked a question in which you seem to be trying to trick me into giving a poor answer. It didn't work the first time, it's not going to work this time-- will you try again a third time? -Why do you choose to try and be 'cunning', instead of being straight-forward? -There must be something you are trying to prove...? I am just simply trying to study the classic literature, and get used to the Mysterious Pass. I don't think there are too many 'technicalities' involved past this point. The 'Nuts' and 'Bolts' you are implicating, may involve a relatively scientific pursuit of the study and practice; doing my best to avoid 'cult-think', and doing my best to recognize the pitfalls of oblivion, and any conceptualizations of the Mysterious Pass. However, this is more of an attitude-- no formalized 'technique' to be employed in the actual 'practice'.

GOD! -And, please, keep wondering why I am getting so upset ! " And yet you speak as if you have it ALL figured out. You come off dogmatic and rude, and then no wonder when people wield the same energy back towards you. " -Perhaps I am speaking as if I have figured SOMETHING out, ryan ! I come off dogmatic and rude, because I feel as though I am speaking to the same folk who have helped sucked hundreds and hundreds of hours out of my life, dedicated to practices that do not lead to enlightenment. "Whether Kunlun is the practice for you or not does not mean it is not the practice that gets another further down their own path. " Perhaps it is a lie in general-- and cultish practices just like this one have BLINDED me from a more genuine path. "That is awesome that you have realized what is and is not working for you. But that hardly means that you have all the answers. I don't know if anyone on this forum does." You know, I think that you are an excellent progenitor of 'cult-think,' ryan. 'ALL THE ANSWERS' ?? COME ON ! WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH YOU ? You know, YOU sound like you have all the answers, Ryan ! You know, I may not be the most friendly poster on these boards-- and perhaps I have not mastered the wisdom of the Tao Te Ching-- but let me tell you, at least I am not contriving to act or behave a certain, even 'enlightened' way. "I know a buddhist monk that got stream entry (first enlightenment) but lost it again (not uncommon and his enlightenement was recognized by his teachers) but then got back to exactly the same place through Chias stuff." -Right, OK-- whatever dude. I know of a guy, who said that there was this one guy, who disappeared in a Starbucks. Buddhist monks earning there second go at enlightenment through Chia's material. I am stamping that statement: CULT. And it is worthless ! How about conversations wherein it is the PHILOSOPHY, SPIRITUAL PRACTICE, and genuine PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that is discussed-- not hearsay and 'ooohs' and 'aaahs' about ridiculous STORIES.

-Yes, Mal, I have practiced for enlightenment, transcendence, and evolution for a long time. My practice began, originally, when I was 16 and I read the Tao Te Ching. Unfortunately after that, I was impressed by Qi-gong, and fell into the cult of energetic arts, starting from Mantak Chia. Tantra, kundalini, nei gong, qigong... I am still so young, but have spent years dedicated to these sorts of practices. And they got me no-where. CHia is a fraud, Winn is a wacko; kundalini yoga is a scam, Tantra and SKF lead you no-where. Kunlun may be a powerful practice, and I may had only practiced it for a couple of months, (however averaging several hours a day,) --but it is still yet only an energetic practice. Kunlun'ers will believe whatever they are told-- for example, that it is NOT a qi-cultivation practice. (If I do it for 10 seconds, it is a qi-cultivation practice ! How different is it, from embracing the tree? -embracing the tree, that is taught as "filling the cup"?) I am tired of being lied to, and of being sucked into these lies by people like most folk on taobums. I'm going back to as simple and fundamental a practice as possible-- that was subtly taught in the Tao Te Ching, and few other taoist alchemical texts. I'm weeding out all the corruption from my practice. And this is something I am just beginning. P.S. thank you for the criticism, mal ! You haven't gotten very far, either !

I asked TexasNative, in the other kunlun thread, if he could describe to me, as elaborately as possible, the changes he has undergone as a result of his Kunlun practice. What have been the consequences of your practices, will you kunlun'ers share? I do have respect for the simple practice. I would like to hear what those who have spent some serious time practicing have to say. Please?

"I think he just wants attention, where negative attention is better than no attention." -That may be very correct. I think I actually appreciate how this has turned into a 'Thrash Findley' thread-- it heightens my sense of righteousness-- you all continue to criticize me, but don't seem to even understand what it is I have said. Li TaoRen-- I will address you publicly: In our private conversations, you have portrayed an awesomely faulty understanding of classic taoist philosophy and alchemy. It is that fools such as yourself criticize me, that I find myself lorded over you. You can perceive only text in a forum-- and in that, you can't even understand the real message I was trying to relay. You suck my ass, Li TaoRen. I understand myself perfectly well, and am perfectly content with both myself, my actions, and the apparant interpretations of my words-- I do not need some piss-ant fool like yourself, or many of the others here trashing me, to illustrate myself to myself. I may not be a sage-- but I am learning the way day by day, and can assure myself that I am much further along the way than many of you. "The sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw-dogs." -I don't think I am interested anymore in sharing, publicly, the concept of the Mysterious Pass. For a primarily TAOIST forum, I am surprised that most of you are so apparantly ignorant of this basic, Taoist concept. This only encourages me in myself, and my endeavors-- in my lording myself over so many of you idiots. Perhaps when you all learn for yourselves the concept of the Mysterious Pass, you will understand my emphasis in the initial post, and will apologize to me, to your pathetic selves, for reacting like such imbeciles. 'cast not pearls unto swine', eh? Sloppy Zhang, I will PM you the message I have sent to others who have asked about the mysterious pass. I'm sorry for being in a bad mood.

-A re-iteration, for some of you. Perhaps it is a mistake for me to post at all; there are several posters who are obviously capable of reading my own posts, but if their discussion is swamped by shit-brains, I think I should be generally disappointed.

huh... uhm, well, it is called many things-- however I have never heard it called that. I don't know what the germinal vesicle is...

You dumb, god-damned fools-- reply with your bullshit one-liners, but, OF COURSE, avoid discussion of the topic presented ! Criticize me, however ignore my words ! You make me sick, you filthy trash ! Adam West, I will share directly with you the concept of the occult opening in a PM. I would sooner piss on these other fools than share with them. --You know, Bodri's emphasis has always been on emptiness... I am not quite sure if he has ever made the distinction between emptiness and the mysterious pass... I'll take a quick look...

Yes ! I have spent a good time today contemplating the difference between emptiness and the mysterious pass. The discernments are so subtle, they are difficult to recognize. I believe that the only real fruit emptiness may bear, is that it may induce the recognition of the mysterious pass in the practitioner. Unfortunately, I also believe that clinging to emptiness practice will more likely serve to HINDER such progress, as one CLINGS to emptiness. (BLOCKHEAD Zen practitioners.) Ough... Thank you for your comment. I am still just a student. I am only just learning to discern between practices... what a fool I am, to think that I might supplement a cultivation of the mysterious pass, with kunlun ! wait, no, I disagree-- perhaps it is through the mysterious pass that 'genuine' emptiness may be reached-- but also, I believe that perhaps it is key to 'wu-wei'-- one may indulge in the mysterious pass, apparantly in gradations. Therefore, it is possible to 'know' it, however to exist on the temporal plane simultaneously. no? what do you think?

Buddha's... bodhisattva's.... Indeed, something to worship-- Though they seem to do a piss-poor job, don't they? I personally can't decide if I would like to worship my own personal avatar in the form of a centaur or pegasus. Unicorns are too girly...

So the practice is so much more powerful than Ch'an-- than emptiness, and indulging in the mysterious pass-- that it is unique from these systems in the necessity cathartic episodes ? -And, also, is it a mistake to consider kunlun a 'building', 'developing', 'improving' practice, in contrast to emptiness-based practices? Hmmm... maybe I'll supplement my emptiness with some kunlun Hmm, I do kunlun for 10 seconds, and it is obviously a building up of energy

Hmmmmmmm Have either of you alien-seers ever smoked DMT? -Is it roughly the same experience? -If so, then perhaps I can understand your experiences. Please tell me you've tried DMT

hmmm, oh ! And, the power one feels performing the practice is so tempting ! -In the classic taoist texts I have been reading, there is no mention whatsoever of 'cathartic' episodes on the way to enlightenment. (In fact, I am given the impression that it should be a pleasant trip all the way down the road.) -I wonder, if there is anyone willing to answer, if classic Buddhist religion discusses any sort of necessary 'cathartic' episodes on the way to enlightenment? Otherwise, I am left wondering: it is a practice that is cultivating raw power, it seems? -Then perhaps it is the case that it is a mistake to practice for power. There is a classic concept in Taoism: One must be empty to be full. (TTC....) also, 'there may be gold and jade to fill the halls, however there are none who can keep them....' So, is it wise to come to the conclusion that Kunlun is a practice whereby one fills himself 'to the brim' with power, and thereby does himself harm? -That perhaps we should go in the other direction, and aim to empty ourselves, instead. Or, maybe we should consider using Kunlun cultivation as merely a supplementary practice, with relatively little emphasis? Or, perhaps it is too early to come to conclusions? -any other kunlun practitioners have long-term experience they would be willing to share, in this condensed thread?

oh ! Look, I was apparantly thr first to respond to this thread, 3 years ago! This is what I had said: practice, practice, practice. I know at least that that is my weak point. If we all just managed to sit down and practice for extneded periods of time... we would all be more evolved. What more can you ask for, than evolution? practice is the most important thing. How you practice and to what end.. are just details. -And now I introduce myself to this board again, badmouthing most practitioners for faulty practices.