findley

God, I wish most of you would refrain from posting so much. I'm not interested in your bullshit one-liners; they turn the whole thread into bullshit ! --Texas Native-- I practiced Kunlun for a month or two, several hours a day, I guess... a couple years ago, now. I don't remember what kind of effect the practice had on me... so I assume that it was negligible. However, that is not to say that I do not have respect for the simple practice: I can get into position and feel a powerful, soulful force immediately, and am always tempted to get back into regular practice again. Can you describe to me, in as elaborate detail as possible, the kind of changes you have undergone, since beginning your practice? -What kind of consequences? -You know, fuck it, I am starting another thread for this question. This one is a swamp.

oh ! Well, it is titled: I CHING METAPHYSICS; Modern Taoist Philosophy Cool title, huh? But I am filling it up with quite a bit of very cool stuff. Revolutionary, a good deal of it ! no joke ! It...uh... I only have, ... you know... about 30 pages on Word document.... uh.... but I still have a few more chapters to go. I think I may get it to 50! I'll probably edit it as a hobby while I am in Beijing, and when I get back I am going to work with one of my philosophy professors a bit about it. So, uh... I'm writing it... but publishing it is a few steps down the road... but it's getting done, and if I may say, brilliantly so ! Really ! Prolific ! It's turning out to be a vast, comprehensive philosophical system, all grounded in a simple metaphysic ! oh ... well... I get excited sometimes I've totally lost touch with my meditation. ... but, I know... I have spent the last several years cultivating P'o-- I plan to continue to do so for at least another 8 or so

Does anyone know where, on the internet, I could go to find people who are practicing (correctly,) the Secret of the Golden Flower and/or decent and genuine Zen? I have a problem, that I only find assholes with zilch reading comprehension, (I may be guilty at times, too-- but I am not retarded! !) who think that tSotGF is referring to the Microcosmic Orbit, or otherwise corrupt the books teachings. And in regards to Zen-- well, it is such a fashionable practice. . . I may have a hard time finding people who can relate to my own practice, outside of reciting Koan's at me. Also, I suspect that the majority of Zen practitioners are Block Heads who are only just fantasizing themselves as being on the road to spiritual blossoming. I am looking for people who I can relate to, in terms of experience along the way to blossoming. Discussing such things as the many pitfalls of oblivion, specifically, but also confirmatory experiences. Also, Philosophy is not what I am looking for, (unlike most people, I can read books for that sort of thing.) -Thanks if anyone knows !!!

VAJRADINGDONG BULLSHIT! I mean really?? on what grounds can you agree with such a claim??? You may be just as confused as darkrod, no? I was wondering, the other day... just how big that space between heaven and earth may be... ...but then I decided that 'space' is an aspect of manifest reality, and that to try and apply such a notion in such a way was ridiculous. If such phenomena existed, then how should it exist, if not in some gradated 'space' between heaven and earth? -And how ridiculous is such a notion as that...? I cannot figure it out. Man is the only gate between heaven and earth. ...................uh................

"Bill's understanding of emptiness is the same as master Nan's. Where are you getting yours from?" pfft please that's so retarded. You're getting your idea's from buddhist texts. You should be the fool to confuse them I seriously doubt Buddha would be a 'buddhist'.

Re-reading the Tao Te Ching the other day, I believe I can present it along with the Secret of the Golden Flower as companion pieces. (What should be a 'no duh' concept... Though it apparantly is not......) Remembering my study of the Tao Te Ching in Highschool, I referred to the book as a 'living philosophy' that covertly introduced to the (serious,) reader a meditation method. Now, I realize that the SotGF is a manual elaborating on just this aspect of the Tao Te Ching. I'm going to use this thread to post direct quotes from a penguin translation of the TTC to elaborate this point, when I get around to feeling like it... cut from 1: "Hence always rid yourself of desires to observe it's secrets; yet always allow yourself to have desires to observe it's manifestations' -- Perhaps one of the most forgotten and undescored points in taoist philosophy-- on the very first page of the TTC (god everybody is stupid. I only hope such rampant stupidity affects me, infects me, to a lesser degree,,,) Here we see the first hint at Golden Flower cultivation: 'ridding oneself of desires', one may equate to, "turning the light around'.

whoa, holy shit lady !

Chapter 10: --- When carrying on your head your perpelexed bodily soul, can you embrace the One, and not let go? In concentrating your breath, can you become as supple as a babe? Can you polish the mysterious mirror, and leave no blemish? Can you love the people and govern the state, Without resorting to action? When the gates of heaven open and shut, are you capable of keeping to the role of the female? When your discernment penetrates the four quarters, are you capable of not knowing anything? It gives them life, and rears them. It gives them life, yet claims no possession. It benefits them, yet exacts no gratitude. It is the steward yet exercises no authority. Such is called the mysterious virtue. ---- Here we are introduced to the 'perplexed bodily soul', that is the soul correlating with the 'yang mystery' of the manifest reality. There is also the 'hun', or the soul correlating with the 'yin mystery'. uh... err....mmmmuhhhhh.... "When the gates of heaven open and shut, can you keep to the role of the female?" -is clearly referring to keeping to your Golden Flower meditation throughout the day. Of course the gates will open and shut, as you live your life-- but more often than not, if you are a successful practitioner, you will find yourself keeping to the role of the female in this respect.

Ahh, chapter 7. I have this tattooed in mandarin, down the length of my back. ----- Heaven and Earth are enduring. The reason why heaven and earth are enduring, is that they do not give themselves life. Hence, they are able to be long-lived. Therefore, the sage puts his person last, and it comes first. Treats it as extraneous to himself and it is preserved. Is it not because he is without thought of self that he is able to accomplish his private ends? ----- By carrying on in your Golden Flower meditation, as a living meditation, throughout the day, one is cultivating within himself life. I have found, personally, that 'the light' is first 'crystallized' into what I called a 'pearl' (in my heart.) it is subtle bliss. However, as I carry on my Golden Flower practices, I find that the 'pearl' has now become a 'puddle'. the 'puddle', I expect, has potential to become a 'pond'-- the 'pond' a 'sea'-- the 'sea' an 'ocean'. That is, potentially an 'ocean' of the 'crystallized light', or the 'primal essence', or 'life-direct'. It is only possible to cultivate the 'primal essence' to such a degree, if one indulges in it and carries it with him throughout the day. In this way, the sage treats his (bodily) person last, and yet finds, it comes first! He treats it as extraneous to himself, and finds that it is preserved! The sage does not give himself life-- that is, he does not dwell incessantly in the manifest, 'yang mystery' (of the dying,) but rather is constantly in a state of 'rebirth', cultivating life direct and indulging in his ever-growing 'spirit', or 'primal essence'. Therefore-- perhaps immortality is possible...? (who knows, though-- would you ever get to 'die', cultivating at this level? that is, would you ever get to 'live your 'life' in the manifest world? Isn't 'life' only defined by 'death'? -and therefore non-sense that one should ever choose to practice for immortality? -remember the first chapter, 'Always allow yourself to have desires, to observe it's manifestations.' --I mean, what good is immortality if I don't get any blow-jobs? -am I right? -am I right? oh ! tao 99, you were referring to the I CHing !! of course !!! good one...

Hey, thank man. Unfortunately, you would think that the 'yang mystery' of the manifest world would be easy enough to understand. I guess we need to learn to start 'seeing' it from the point-of-view of the 'yin mystery'. =enlightenment, right? anyways Chapter 5 has one of my favorite quotes: 'Heaven and Earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad creatures as straw-dogs; the sage is ruthless, and treats the people as straw-dogs.' People don't hear this enough. They are too far-gone lost in their lubby-dubby bullshit delusions about what it is supposed to mean to be enlightened. (dumbshit buddhists.) Anyways, chapter 5 goes on to something more important than that: 'Is not the space between heaven and earth like a bellows? It is empty without being exhausted: the more it works, the more comes out. Much speech leads invariably to silence; better to hold fast to the void.' Again, referring directly to the method of cultivating life directly from it's source; of 'turning the light around'; of 'cultivating the primal essence'. By sitting in mental stillness, ridding oneself of desires, of indulging in the formless form, the non-manifest, we recognize directly the 'Yin' mystery. 'Much speech...' seems to refer to 'life' lived in the 'Yang' mystery, (the manifest; the realm of death / the dying.) By holding fast to the void, one is literally holding fast directly to the very source of life. Man is special that he can do this by meditation-- he becomes a medium between the 'yin' and 'yang' mysteries. By recognizing and dwelling in the 'formless form', by cultivating life direct-- one might say that he is being reborn, bit by bit, as he practices. Chapter 6, again, a goody. ----- The spirit of the Valley never dies. This is called the mysterious female. The gateway of the mysterious female is called the root of heaven and earth. Dimly visible, it seems as if it were there, yet use will never drain it. ------- This should be making sense to you now, of your own accord, after my prior comments. The 'Gateway of the mysterious female' seems to refer to the 'mysterious gate' in meditative practice-- it is that which we 'open' to recognize the formless form, to cultivate life direct. It is interesting that it is called 'the root' of heaven and earth-- what does that mean? I think that it is Man, in particularly in this meditative practice. Man, is, afterall, the medium between heaven and earth-- what else could serve as a gate between heaven and earth, than that which is naturally the medium already?

hmm, let me just reproduce the whole chapter. I guess I can do a bit better. ----------- The Way that can be spoken of, is not the constant Way; The Way that can be named is not the constant name. The nameless was the beginning of Heaven and Earth; The named was the mother of the myriad creatures. Hence, always rid yourself of desires to observe it's secrets; but always allow yourself to have desires in order to observe it's manifestations. These two are the same, yet diverge in name as they issue forth. Being the same, they are called mysteries, Mystery upon Mystery-- The gateway of the manifold secrets. ------------ Now, here we see recognized two aspects of reality; two 'Mysteries'. We may consider one yin, the other yang. The 'Yin' mystery is the subtle reality; the basis of Golden Flower meditation. It is the 'formless form'. It is from this aspect of reality that we cultivate the 'primal essence'. It is the Great Mother. The 'Yang' mystery is the manifest world of form-- that which we are naturally 'born into' and through which we 'live our lives'. It is the mother of the 'myriad creatures'-- it is the basis for the 'named'. Hence, 'Mystery upon Mystery'. These two 'mysteries' combined-- I call 'Tao'. (however, the 'yin' aspect of reality, because it is that which we tap into to realize our enlightenment, is often confused itself for Tao. It is also too frequently given spiritual emphasis, (literally, as being somehow more important than manifest reality,) because it is the source of our enlightenment. I can say a small bit more, but I am saving that for my book. Chapter Two of the Tao Te Ching is simply reporting wisdom based on observation of the binary, yin and yang. 'Something and Nothing produce eachother' -- we are reminded of the original, 'yin' and 'yang' 'mysteries' of the first chapter. Chapter 4 is a goody: ---- The Way is empty, yet use will not drain it. Deep, it is like the ancestor of the myriad creatures. Blunt the sharpness, Untangle the knots, soften the glare, let your wheels move only along old ruts. Darkly visible, it only seems as if it were there. I know not whose son it is; it images the forefather of God. ------ This is the first chapter really being reiterated by the meditative practice of the SotGF. The 'Way' that is empty, here, is referring to the 'yin' mystery. Blunting, softening, untangling: like, 'ridding oneself of desires' in the first chapter, are methods of realizing the 'Yin' mystery. 'Use will not drain it'-- it is the source of life, yet 'empty'. Cultivating the 'primal essence', one is literally cultivating, directly from its source, life. 'Darkly visible, it only seems as if it were there' -- it is the formless form. The non-manifest.

Thank you Thelerner-- I have been considering, lately, about devising and holding work-shops in Memphis teaching the Secret of the Golden Flower, when I get back from my study in Beijing. I was thinking about creating a website to help advertise and supplement the teaching experience-- it would be a good idea to support a forum specific to these teachings, as well. I may not be a master-- but I am certain I could earn recognition and be perceived as one, doing this sort of thing. thank you...

HA ! I GOT IT !! IT GETS YOU LAID !!!!! of course... vajradingdong seems to have a hot girlfriend sharing his avatar. I guess not all buddhists are the 'suck-assy' types, eh

...I don't know whether I should be impressed with this buddhist scholarship... Or ... ... I guess study of buddhist religion is as acceptable a hobby as any. ... ... I wonder if you buddhists really believe that such nonsense is conducive to 'enlightenment'? (I mean, really?) I mean, really-- genuine curiousity. No offensive intentions involved.

There is written in a taoist classic That of jing, qi, and shen qi controls jing and shen controls qi therefore, if you master the spirit, qi and jing cultivation will necessarily follow suit All one needs is to cultivate the primal essence.

I am not necessarily interested int discussing temporal experience-- but rather discussing the genuine legitmacy of the actual practice of cultivating that primal essence, (zazen.) Such fools as to refuse to discuss such things are more and more likely to end up blockheads who have trapped themselves up into myriad forms of oblivion. 'no talk! sit!' (and so the poor fool student clamps down hard on his mind and does not let go; he sits for hours dwelling in awful, chilling, experience-- he becomes a blockhead.) It does sound cool though-- and even somewhat correct, doesn't it? However the cultivation of the primal essence is found elusive. I suppose I would like to discuss, primarily, the many pitfalls of such Oblivious states as bring about blockheadedness. The traditions pervading zen buddhism, though obscure and subtle, have obviously ruined the practice on the whole, for people in general. They also have a bad habit of pretending that the temporal doesn't exist-- that it doesnt deserve credit for observation. (That means you tianshixian. Your words are fashionably zen, and you have lorded your wisdom over mine. You make me sick.) thank you everyone else for your advice. I'm leaving town here for China shortly-- but I will have to keep an eye out for decent zen practitioners from now on.

Someone asked me for an effective method of opening the mysterious gate and cultivating the primal essence, (alternative to some psuedo-alchemy in another thread.) The process is simple. (reminded, "the way is easy to follow, yet people prefer devious paths...") If you actually read the Secret of the Golden Flower, (wilhelms version was sufficient for me, however it may be necessary[for you bums] to read Cleary's,) then you wouldn't need somebody to give you there personal interpretation. to paraphase a bit of the practice: The 'light' that is being cultivated, ('reversed', 'turned around',) is also the essence of our ordinary consciousness. First, we must quiet our minds so that this primal light is not immediately transformed into an incessant thought-noise. This is basic zen, you idiots. --You must be careful, however, not to fall into the many pitfalls of 'oblivion', (a subject I dont believe is treated in wilhelms version of the book.) Once you have mastered this zazen, and are cultivating the light, you should experience a subtle bliss. (it is almost as if it were not there, and yet it is a bliss.) Now, you need only simply 'realize', (however not psychologically, or intellectually... it is a very subtle, experiential 'realization',) the mysterious gate. the mysterious gate can not be described positively, but only negatively. It is mysterious. it is as if it were not there. It is as a center-less center, that is everywhere and no-where. 'there', you will find a 'light' that is not a light. This is the primal essence, (of Dao.) If you carry this with you throughout the day, with your quiet mind, it will develope of its own accord. this last part, finding the mysterious gate after acheiving basic zazen, should not be a big problem if you idiots read the basic scripture, (LIKE THE TAO TE CHING.) -this forum has gone so far down hill, it is embarrassing. -A bunch of assholes "oh'ing" and "Awe'ing" at the same bullshit methods packed into different packages. 90% of it is meaningless corrupt TRASH THAT WILL WASTE YEARS OF YOUR LIFE

Really?? So zen monasticism is not chill, relaxed, and convenient ? Would you be hassled if you just lounged about all day, doing your own thing, whenever you pleased? Strict ? ! ugh . . Why ? ? I think living a normal life on your own would be more conducive to cultivating the primal essence, if that is the case. I wonder if there is a place I could go, where nothing is expected of me other than cultivation. . . and where traditions, methods, and rigid routines do not dominate your worldly existence. Worldly existence is nice! you should not deny it or make it suck !!

Well, I don't think of it as doing it 'my way'-- just simply that after those 4-6 years of alternative, popular practices, I finally went back, (yes, back,) to tSotGF-- and find that it is just the best. If running my MO a million times had provided these kinds of results, I would have stuck with it-- really, I am just seeking enlightenment like anybody else on this forum. Of course one should be one's own master, however I did not devise this practice. --you two are misunderstanding the experience; Marblehead is referring to a different 'valley' altogether. If you're interested, you're going to need to read the passage on that subject directly from the manual, (either translation will do...)

Hmm, Daughter 'Zen'. Look at that picture ! She is so fashionable ! Even in Taoism, though, there is an over-emphasis on the subtle. In the first chapter of the Tao te ching, there is roughly said: 'Rid yourself of desires to observe it's secrets; yet always allow yourself to have desires to observe it's manifestations' I like to say to myself, 'I will have my cake, and eat it to'. -Don't forget to live your life, or you will have it spent facing a goddamn wall! I like to practice out in public places, amongst other people. It pronounces my bodily being, in the reflection of all the people who are trapped in their worldly existence. (if that makes sense...) Thanks, Tao99 ; ) Hey-- Do you think they see the wall?

Oh... Zen... Ah, uh ... well... Maybe I'm not really totally educated on the formal philosophy of Zen Buddhism. When I comment, and say, "This is basic Zen," I am under the impression that this practice (of tSotGF,) is actually the Mother-Philosophy of Zen Buddhism. So, If this is true, (and I am very certain that it is,) then I do not believe I am totally at fault for referring to this practice as basic 'zen'. (particularly, 'zazen'.) If I am wrong somehow, I would earnestly like to know how. --- As for my personal attainments, I have had some. Firstly, correlating with the experiences of attainment written in the book-- It is described as though 'one hears voices, as whispers, as if coming from a valley'... (or something like that...) This, I believe, is referring to a kind of clairvoyance. Occassionally, I will 'hear' peoples' thoughts as they are having them. This is not a constant thing, and happens only on occassion. I believe that the experience is most pronounced when the thought is an exclamation, is regarded in my direction, or I have developed a closer relationship with that person. Also, I really do carry with me a subtle bliss quite a bit of the time. Not all the time, but I would say most of the time-- and I can conjure it almost at command, simply by remembering my practice. Such subtle bliss, I do not believe is directly commented upon by the book, other than perhaps that one feels like 'silk' or 'jade' (prior to what is commonly known as a kundalini rush.) As for 'opening the microcosmic/macrocomsic orbits' ... It is ridiculous to think in these terms. I am experiencing 'kundalini rushes', (I am sure we all know what I mean by that...) however they are only accidental, and minor. (no flashes of light, or remarkable, painful, or extreme experiences that might be indicative of an immediate awakening, as I used to think of it.) Perhaps the most remarkable experience is an overall shift in my being-- a sort of gradual re-alignment of my sense of identity, away from my body and more and more into the subtle experience of the 'light', or 'spirit'. --- maturity is important, if only because I believe that means that one is also wise, somewhat disciplined, and determined. I would say a philosophical understanding of basic taoist tenets is more important than being a 'nice guy', if that's what you mean.

--

You're right, Little one; However having 'temporal roots' or 'worldly foundations' has absolutely nothing to do with 'bad language', nor really too much even arrogance. Perhaps I am trolling this board-- but it's only because I take pleasure in lording myself over idiots like yourself, who speak of things they apparently don't even understand. You know, I wouldn't be half so cool as I am, if people like you weren't around! In fact, you know what-- I practiced the kind of BULLSHIT written above for a LONG TIME. YEARS. SO HOW DARE ANY OF YOU BLAME ME FOR BLAMING CRAIG FOR HIS USELESS SO-CALLED 'ALCHEMY' WHEN YOU HAVE SPENT YEARS OF YOUR LIFE IN SERIOUS PURSUIT OF DAO WASTED BECAUSE OF BULLSHIT LIKE THIS, THEN MAYBE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND Call me a troll. You are a fool.

Is it just me, or is 'one finger chan' a joke? ...You know, because there is no sound reason for calling it zen... and because they are only fools who look at the finger, (when it is pointing to the moon? you know, that old zen moral...)