寒月 Hanyue

Yup!! Cos the real definition is..... Oh wait, er. Some people try to go on about the word qigong having existed hundreds of years ago, which it did. However, and it is a rather big however. The definition, use and understanding of the term is a modern one, and that understanding is usually projected back in time (same with most of these terms), and then those old texts are used to justify the modern view of whoever. The modern definition and use of the word qigong comes from Ya Mu's grandteachers and the rest of the small group tasked with the responsibility of getting the myriad cultivation methods out to a more public audience for their health and benefit. Ironically it seems that even within that small group, just what was implied by the word varied a little. So ultimately, technically, it can mean whatever you were taught it means, that is the beauty of the Chinese language. But ignoring the view of the term by those who proposed it's use in the first place is kinda disrespectful in my view. The separation of things into two, wai (outer) and nei (inner) is a yin-yang organisational polarity model used by the Chinese for a very long time. The use of the word 'gong' (work: time & effort) is also very very common. This has led to the uses of words like neigong in different disciplines or arts, and it does not automatically imply that they are all talking about the same thing!! It is simply a way to differentiate aspects of the art. So even "neijiaquan" (internal martial art, if you beleive in such a thing) has waigong (outer work) AND neigong (inner work). Daoist neigong is also NOT the same thing as martial neigong, although there are also plenty of lineages that have added Daoist neigong into their martial art, so it has BOTH martial and Daoist neigong combined together. It all gets very confusing, until you simply accept there never has been, and never will be a singular definition of ANY of these terms. When you mix martial and Daoist views you get a different perspective to Daoism or martial art alone. Learn to differentiate, and to appreciate what the teacher of that lineage is actually saying and look beyond the words they use! Never assume you know what they mean because you have A definition for a word they used! All the best,

"The 後天三寶 hou-tian sanbao (post-heaven three treasures) are jing, qi, and shen. The 先天三寶 xian-tian sanbao (pre-heaven three treasures) of one’s original nature are 元炁 yuanqi (original qi) [post-heaven ‘qi’ is air], 靈 ling (spirit), and 性 xing (one’s nature)." Wang Liangyi Which gives us; Xian-tian sanbao 先天三寶 炁 qi 靈 ling 性 xing Hou-tian sanbao 後天三寶 精 jing 氣 qi 神shen This is one Daoist lineages view. I'm sure there are others. [edit:] In fact here is an exmaple of another view; Catherine Despeux also distinguishes between xiantian sanbo 先天三寶, and houtian sanbo 後天三 Xian-tian sanbao 先天三寶 Yuanjing 元精 "Original Essence" Yuanqi 元氣 "Original Breath" yuanshen 元神 "Original Spirit" (Despeux (2008:The Encyclopedia of Taoism ed. Fabrizio Pregadio) So there are different ideas, concepts and terms that exist depending on tradition and lineage, surprise surprise. You could, but it is rather pointless to try to make them all fit as one homologous 'map', it is better to appreciate why the different views exist. But really, it only means anything if you are pragmatically involved in the tradition in the first place!! Best, P.S. My previous post included a section from an old private chat, and in all honesty I wrote it quickly and it implied something that wasn't quite accurate, my apologies. I have edited the post accordingly for those who find the thread in future.

I have no idea exactly to what Taomeow was referring. Different lineages and different ideas and all that. So I look forward to seeing her response. This is from a pm conversation a while ago; "On the Daoist view. The "three treasures" (sanbao) of man are jing-qi-shen. But there is xian-tian (pre-Heaven) sanbao (ie: jing-qi-shen), and there is hou-tian (post-Heaven) sanbao (three-treasures). Sometimes the Chinese characters are the same but sometimes they are different. This is also, in my opinion, why people get into arguments over what they are, qi in particular. For example xian-tian qi is a deep part of who you are and is the energy you were given at birth. Hou-tian qi is breath. Most qigong and medicine has focused upon hou-tian jing-qi-shen, because that is what it wants to work with, the tangible. There is also 'shun' and 'ni' in understanding the movement of nature and Dao. Shun means 'with the natural order', while ni means 'to rebel, reverse, or against the natural order'. This is a fundamental concept underlying all Daoist approaches. "Practicing jing transforms to qi, qi nurtures shen,shen returns to wu (emptiness). This is breathing with the natural order. Breathing in reverse of the natural order, is non-breathing, regulating the breath, breathing deeply, fetal breathing. [breathing in this] manner postpones aging and can reverse old age and return youth." Bo Yang (Old Daoist) "Dao gives birth to One, One gives birth to Two, Two give birth to Three, Three give birth to all things. This is the natural order that creates humans, creates things. Jing changes to Qi, Qi changes to Shen, Shen gathers inside the form, this is the natural order. Shen changing into Qi, Qi changing into Jing, Jing then being able to change into form, this is the reverse of the natural order. In reversing the natural order it is possible to become an immortal or a Buddha." These quotes are from my Classical Daoist chinese medical lineage. Still wrapping my head around it in all fairness. Most only know or talk about the one direction of this process Yet we should bear in mind, that in Daoism, for every truth, the opposite is also true. Context is forever important. Yin and yang. There is always two, and yet they are not two but one thing." The rabbit hole is far deeper than most realise I feel... Best, [Edit: Having read what appears to have been Taomeow's post elsewhere that inspired this thread. All I can say is I agree whole-heartedly with her comments. Not only do her comments make sense in light of the theory I have been taught in one classical lineage, it also makes sense in light of the pragmatic teachings of my primary lineage.]

Dwai me ol mucka I have no agenda. Read Bruce's 'Power of internal martial arts' and you can read his open opinion of Master Liao, which is not a negative one. However read the appendix in 'Opening the energy gates' which goes into problems having arisen from qigong practice. It is WELL known within Bruce's school and even by others that two of the examples in that chapter are concerning experiences that occured under Master Liao. He left the names out of publication out of respect, but he'll tell you who in person. This has been public knowledge for decades. "In 1970, year of the Ôsaka Expo, I [Marnix Wells] returned to Taiwan for the summer break. There I met Liao Weishan (Liao Waysun), then a student at the Political University and luminary of the Sunday taiji quan pushing hands arena at the Legislative Yuan. Liao came from a rural background of Springing Crane (Zong He), in Xiluo a traditional martial hotbed of southern Taiwan. Liao, a native Taiwanese, spoke like a radical firebrand, critical of the ‘internal martial arts’ scene, under the mainlander KMT government aegis, of which Zheng Manqing [Chen Man Ching](then teaching in New York) was the presiding if absent deity. Liao covertly challenged the prevailing mythology of invulnerability and the miracles of ‘softness’. He agreed to train me in jing ‘energy’ through hard pushing-hands, and guide me on a tour of internal masters in Taiwan." From Marnix Wells Zong He (Shaking/Vibrating Crane) is a branch of Fujian White crane. And that has nothing to do with anything from Bruce. Believe me or not, I couldn't give a monkeys and it makes no difference to anything important.

Hi Creation, I'm off the forum thesedays. You are NOT alone in your experiences, it is just something people either don't want to bring up or conceptualise in a way that means they don't feel the need to do so. I do not feel or view this as having anything to do with "being ready", for one Yamu has always spoken of the reasons why people walked into his clinic or his workshops whether they were aware of that level or not. PM me if you want to chat more I'm not getting into it here....

Did you want a bigger spoon??

Bumping the OP

No I don't have time to go through all those links, and evaluate them and get back to you with a point by point analysis. I also don't have time to research and evaluate all of the teachers mentioned that have dvd's out that you have access to. We obviously feel different about this then. This is a forum, there is more valuable information on this forum providing qigong methods than you'll get on most dvds. [Edit] While not an actual practice, I am aware of this; http://www.youtube.c...8?feature=watch I think Charles does a good job of trying to get across that what you see on the outside is only a shadow of how the movement in taiji and good qigong occurs. Watch all of them, but start here; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We3nu1dSfE4&list=UU0AAOqH-7s4B3esrfOCaqEA&index=10&feature=plcp It'll also give you enough to work on this practice; These don't go into Cai gong however, or the layers of energetic interaction between you and the environment, but it's a start.

I've moved cities 4 times, My latest teacher, though they live in China, comes to me . I think I've earned that one It's why I don't have much sympathy for people whining about no teachers near them or no-one to study with and so on (this comment is NOT aimed at the starter of this thread, I have simply seen A LOT of people on various forums and boards doing this over the years). One, you have to learn patience. You finding teachers, or them finding you (whichever way you want to look at it) doesn't happen over night. But yes, be prepared to travel. I've visited 6 countries on 3 continents for various lengths of time. And no I'm not rich and not made of money. Best,

As per usual your lack of comprehension shines through. As does your lack of appreciation of what your fellow country men have been teaching for a VERY long time. And those that continue to do so today. Having read many of your posts over the years and your "insights" gleaned from that short period of time with your taiji teacher decades ago and your reading, and having watched your youtube videos of what you consider "taiji" and "qigong". I have NO doubts in my mind who's teachings, ideas, and practices I will be paying attention to. ZZ simply for your leg muscles , sheesh Best,

The water-fire thing, ala Bruce is not about the wuxing. It is one of the things Winn didn't get and shows his ignorance of the actual system. Frantzis teaches; Opening the energy gates (Water) Spiralling the energy body (Fire) Marriage of Heaven and Earth (Wood) Bend the bow shoot the arrow (Metal) Gods playing in the clouds (Earth) That is the 'neigong', which prepares and integrates into the Daoist meditation. Frantzis teaches (simplistically); Basic body and mind practices Deep stillness practices Alchemy The point where 'alchemy' is engaged with in the water method is different than the fire schools. He explains this quite well in the pdf of questions and answers organised by this forum. But yes the alchemy works with both kan (water) and li (fire). The 'Water' in the the "water method/tradition" is not a reference to a school that implies the existence of the 'wood', 'metal', 'earth' etc method/traditions. Nor is it representative of an imbalance in kan and li in the approach to alchemy. Winn seems unaware of all the references to the Dao being like water etc One way, and I am NOT implying this is what Bruce means, would be to understand "water tradition" simply as "Dao tradition", albeit one that holds to the 'water' references in the DDJ etc as a reference point and guide. No books on the wuxing spring to mind best,

On what?

Teachers leave you to practice because IT'S BORING and they have better things to do. They set you up, and let you get on with it. Doesn't matter what kind of practice, they aren't going to pamper to you! You either have it, or you don't, and you need to find that in your practice. Kids are NOT taught the same as Adults. Never have been. To do so shows a dis-connect with who is in front of you. Doesn't mean some adults aren't taught like children, or some children aren't taught like adults. It isn't an either or situation. There are people who advocate watching tv etc to beginners, it helps distract you. But please be aware that this is NOT the practice. It is a preliminary stage to help you get to the point where you can BEGIN your practice. No form of standing, Buddhist, Daoist, Martial, Medical whatever is about dis-engaging the consicous awareness from the body. Learning to make the body stand is just that. Which is fine if that is your aim and goal. However, it has very little skill cross-over with anything else. For example, running. run cross country even better run through woods or, go to a gym get on a treadmill and switch off to MTV You can argue that at least the treadmill means your 'body' or cardiovascular system is working, but when you could be killing two birds with one stone and getting SO much more from your time, why do anything less?? Learning to have the mind consciously engaged WITH the body, nei wai he yi (inner and outer as ONE) is preferable and has much greater carry over and expansion into other skills and developments. It is just that the methodology used to do this is what varies, but it matters little which method you use. Hence you have some blend Daoist neigong into standing, some use Ch'an. If switching the mind off during practice using tv made the practice better, you'd find zen monks and Daoist priests sat infront of the tv. All the best,

Been here before, all the article does is show how little Winn understands of Frantzis system regardless of any relationship Best, P.S. Because of my involvement with the Water method, many on here have assumed I view things via Frantzis perspective. Actually I don't and never have. I have however taken the time to experience it from within to further my understanding of the whole picture. I do agree with a polarity of cultivation, this is from numerous sources regarding Kundalini, Dao, Shinto and others. And my view is not the same as Frantzis' 'water'-'fire' although similar in some ways. Primarily I try to understand via the Chinese cosmology as later adopted by Daoists.

Simply I agree. There is a difference, in where they are as in what they bring to the table, and in the way they learn and absorb. You have to teach the student in front of you. Things are changing and the barriers are blurring, but they run deeper than most people think. Best,

Hey Jetsun Maybe, but I think it might also be a case of; "There are over 3 dozen versions of the skeleton visualization. THE LITTLE BOOK OF MEDITATION has detailed instructions,which is what you want and need. The important point is a stable visualization held in the mind. Each version differs as to particulars." So he might simply be saying, you don't need to worry about the head in the rib cage thing. Just follow these instructions and it will do everything you need/want. I find Bodri's teaching style of excessive over repetition to be tiresome reading. I know why he does it, and he says he is going to, so it is intentional. I just find it tiring to read. Repeat a little, get the point across. But he goes overboard. If you can get passed that, then it's a good book as a summary of the teachings from Master Nan and how they fit together etc. Personally I'd rather read Master Nan. But the only books of his I don't have are the out of print over priced ones Oh well. Best,

Garripoli is the only one I've heard of. Have no idea if the dvd is any good never seen it. I would not bother trying to learn taiji from a dvd, ANY dvd. The benefit you would get, would far more easily be got doing other things. What you say in bold above you certainly are not going to get from Cohen's W/F dvd. However, if you like what else you said above and found you were getting that from the dvd, then carry on! It ain't rocket science. Personally those benefits IMO have little to do with actual qigong. Which are exercises regarding qi, not a physical fitness workout routine like Cohen presents. But if you like it, and you feel it gives you something, do it, simple. Just be aware of what it IS and IS NOT doing for you. For joint mobility, dynamic range of motion and daily de-stress there are far better and easier fitness programs easily available on youtube or dvd (Sonnon's intu-flow for example). They don't pretend to be anything other than what they are. What ever rocks your boat and gets you doing it is great. If you want to learn authentic qigong, sorry I have NO dvd or book to recommend. I am not a fan nor an advocate of trying to learn that way. My experience has shown it is a waste of time and potentially hazardous. What you can do, which is what I did, is do what you can and learn patience. Allow your life to change and move to a place where you can study with someone. Some times this takes years. It isn't always easy and can be frustrating. I've been there. However these days I have awesome teachers, and lineages. Be prepared to 'listen', follow your heart and to move city. You never know what doors will open un-expectedley. Best,

Hunyuan neigong is awesome, his chansi gong is also awesome. Master Feng was invited back to the Chen village to pass on the aspects of Chenshi taijiquan they'd 'lost'. Part of that was zhan zhuang and chansi gong. Master Feng's taiji was/is quite different to mainstream Chen style. It was more informed by Daoist practice. Never practiced the taiji, only the neigong and chansi gong. Best,

I do, and it doesn't. Not in the section on white skeleton, it may do elsewhere. Bodri waffles and rambles a lot. Best, P.s. If you can stand Bodri's usual stance and writing style, it is an interesting book in that it lays out all the practices in one place. It was meant as a companion for 'Little book of Hercules', Hercules lays out the gongfu process, the Meditation book the methods. However, both waffle and ramble on and repeat each a lot, so.

I've wondered the same thing. I have several versions of the practice from Bodri, from his pdfs and his published books. None that I recall mention that aspect. Best,

Maybe some do. The standing practices vary widely, in purpose, intent, and method. There is a reason for each of them. These days, most fall back on Wang Xiangzhai's teachings, and even those get bastardised a lot. What are you doing and why? If you know that does it matter which method? Best,

Read it, and the expanded volume. Not personally a fan of his work. Best,

You'll know But 'filled' always seems a bit erroneous to me. The Daoist neigong is to have your qi sink from above to pour into the field/dantian from above (it expands and opens hence 'filling'), spill this out and down so that it pours into earth, wait, no wait, wait, ah there is is, it rises back up and pours into field/dantian from below. Heaven and Earth and Man. As the dantian continues to be fed, it usually will kickstart the experience of various orbits or channels opening further and so forth as described by Turtle shell. Regardless of 'felt' energy, if the body does not react and change with the energy then it's not quite right IMO. See my previously, probably excessive post Best,

No problems mate, I understand. These language mis-understanding do happen haha. Glad it is the latter that you are experiencing All the best,

Hey guys Well the above doesn't sound like the same description as the below.... Subtle changes in qi is one thing and fair enough. You however posted that the qi is PULLED up to your head and could cause highblood pressure. This is NOT in my view a subtle shift or change in qi or anything And IS something that should not be happening in ZZ despite anyone's personal opinions. Qi rising in ZZ is NOT the same as PULLING QI to the head. If you'd said , 'I experience a SUBTLE RISING of qi when I stand', I wouldn't have said a thing. So my apologies, if this is the case. My post was aimed at helping prevent excess qi in the head and potential blood pressure problems. Raising qi is not the same as 'pulling qi' to or into the head. I never said you invented anything, you don't need to defend yourself You posted about a common problem that occurs in ZZ, and as I said the qi is only going up in that way if you are leading it up. I gave one way of learning to counter it, in case you wanted to play with it. If you don't it's up to you. I don't know what you are trying to do by even practicing ZZ. Actually, sinking is the way you get the qi to rise. Safely, most smoothly, and is the easiest. Of course there are different ways. As I posted before, standing is simply that, standing. What you are doing inside your standing changes the nature of the practice dramatically. So depending on WHY you are practicing standing in the first place should determine WHAT you are doing within it. I have met lots of people that simply practice whatever standing, thinking it is all the same, then get surprised that it doesn't take them where they wanted to go. If your standing is taking you where you want to go, then that is great and i'll shut up Depends on why you are standing and the type of standing you are doing. People argue about time duration because they don't realise they are doing standing for different things. Some standing if you do it for more than 10 minutes you are most definitely doing it wrong! Oh, and you should never force yourself to stand for an hour or more. The length of time is built by the capacity of your "qi". Quite, and you aren't wrong. From my perspective what you say above, and what I posted are two different aspects of a greater whole. It's something different, related but different. So don't take this as an attempt at debate so much as clarification of what I meant previously. Maybe you feel it is the same, fair enough. It's just not the way I've been taught. It doesn't matter whether you are standing or sitting or whatever shape you take. Your energy-body should FILL the space between heaven and earth. That means rising and sinking, and or expanding, however you want to see it. However no practice aims to PULL qi to the head causing highblood pressure. None. Dantian is a central focus point that does not cause qi to rise. However this is NOT in contradiction to what you said above. It does however cause qi to sink, and build in dantian, and yes as the channels open and the qi builds, the body fills up and the qi reaches both heaven and earth. And is also filled from heaven and earth. This is different to focusing in the head and raising the qi from the feet upwards. When you have a central focus, the qi will still go up and down, but overall is balanced. Like wise having the focal point at the feet draws the qi all the way down. You can't sink ALL your qi, it's impossible. You can't raise ALL your qi it is also impossible. But you can create a dramatic difference between the two, and there are times when this is advocated or used. But more common is the central focus. Clearing the qi downwards which opens the energy-body causing a reciprocal upward flow, is a very different way of getting qi to rise. The rise is 'natural'. However, this daoist neigong is not what most are putting within their standing practice. Some martial artists do this, others do not. All the best,