寒月 Hanyue

I double checked Master Lam's book for you. He does say to only slightly bend the knee in the first position. He also says knee ACHE is to be expected, as is ACHING in various body parts. This is NOT PAIN. Please note the difference. I help teach qigong to chronic pain patients. I also coach martial artists with standing practice. Joint pain is NEVER acceptable, it means you are doing something wrong. And it embeds trauma into the nervous system. Learning to wait out and work through muscular tension is different, and even then there are arguments for and against it. I have never been taught pain is okay, by ANY of my teachers, regardless of the type of zhan zhuang they were passing on. The type of standing you appear to want to be doing, ala Master Kam, is like allowing the rice to settle to the bottom of a sack. If you are doing this, that is why you lift, extend, or 'pull up' the sack, while allowing the rice inside to sink and settle, make sense. This is ONLY possible if you treat your skeleton properly, and allow the weight to pass through the joints. If you have pain in a joint, the body organises itself to deal with that pain, that re-organisation of your nervous system is completely counter to what you are trying to do. So why fight yourself?? Trust me, your body will win Maybe not straight away, you may even think you've won. But it'll come back haha, Besides, that kind of pain usually makes your energy-body shrink and contract, which is also the opposite of what you want. Do you mean C. K. Chu's book? I have it but haven't read it for years. Look, the knee thing you are referring to is more complex than that. I don't know what you are doing, so if I say yes, you may over do it. Then you may strain the ligaments on either the inside or outside of your knee. Do the partial practices to really get a feel for the extending and sinking that should be going on. Then when standing establish that as best you can. Simply circle the ankle slowly and gently in small circles and try to find the best alignment for today, then the knees, the the hip, allowing the pelvis and tailbone to sink more lower back to open more etc. Do one leg then the other if its easier than both. Do this to 'settle' in. Then stand as though under water and let go and allow the body to find its own way to settle more. What is going on in the legs in martial zhan zhuang is THREE-DIMENSIONAL and each part directly relates to the rest. There is opening, lengthening, wrapping, hollowing, lifting and all sorts. It really becomes a study of task saturation. And is not something you are meant to hold for extended periods of time. The mental effort let alone the physical is too much. For 'qi' practice, just learn to feel the bones, the joints, align them and allow the soft tissue to expand soften and sink. No pain You'll know when you get it because the body will let go and it's like a big sigh of relief and goes 'aaahhhhhh....' Hit that and over time extend that space for longer, and longer. Best,

Okay, i'll be blunt. Standing won't help you with this it will only make it worse I don't care what the book says. Please do not just stand and wait for it to go away I have the book, I know the teacher, I know teachers under him. The knee pain is occuring because of the alignment of your soft tissues and bones. The force that should be passing straight through the knee joint is instead redirected forwards and you end up with pain behind the kneecap, or just below it. First thing, you probably have the knees too bent, stand up higher and wait for the kua and ankles to open more before bending them a lot. As long as they are unlocked it is fine. Many try to do zhan zhuang with really bent knees and it is pointless. Especially if it is causing pain in the joints. Muscle pain is okay, joint pain NEVER is. Opening the knee joint is quite easy, and certainly easily shown, but is quite hard to describe in 'e-mail' format So please bear with me. First I want you to play with your hand, wrist and forearm and get a feeling for something. It will be much easier to get this with the upper limb first . Simply hold the forearm up vertically, slowly and gently move the wrist back and forth and find a good neutral balance point to balance your hand on top of the forearm. Once you've done that, slowly extend the fingers up towards the ceiling. Don't stretch them, extend them from the palm. Then I want you to feel your fingertips and feel the inside of each finger sinking and draining downwards. Feel this drain into the hand, don't worry if certain parts don't want to get involved. Continue this sinking feeling all the way down to your elbow. The arm should not have moved. This is feeling an internal shift inside. Once you can drain down to the elbow, move your awareness back from the elbow upwards allowing the outside of the arm to open and extend slightly more, keep this opening feeling going until you reach the fingertips, see how much easier your arm, hand, and fingers extended. Play back and forth. Each benefits and aids in the other. Sit in a chair, put your feet as you would if you were standing. Do the same thing but from your knees down to yongquan and your toes. Sink the weight downwards, inside, feel it, don't visualise it or imagine it, feel it in your body. Once drained down, press into the floor slightly, and allow an extension like you felt in the arm move up through the foot, ankle, shin and calf into and ideally through the knee. Then drain back down again. Play back and forth. If you do this correctly you will begin to engage the natural 'lengthening' of the soft tissues of the body (eventually going into yin/yang tissues etc), and you will begin to release open the joints properly. There is much more to it, but this is stage 101. Did you find your feet opened more? your ankles? It is easier to do this without the whole body weight on them. Now stand up. Same thing, from the knees drain down into and through the ankles and feet. Allow the back of the heel to press slightly into the floor. Feel how this sets up a reciprocal feeling in the back of the knee. You should feel an 'opening' or light 'stretch' in the back of the knee. Now gently circle the ankle joint, search for the centre, where your body weight falls cleanly through, then do the same for the knee. Repeat the back and forth extending with a slight press, draining/sinking down. This is eventually done whole bodily and will lead to some interesting things. Best,

There are many forms of standing, and many things physically and or energetically that you can be doing within it. Martial arts have more reasons for doing things a certain way than say simply for 'health'. Daoist neigong has a different focus again. Some layer and blend across all these things. It doesn't matter what you do, as long as you know why and what it is for and that it meets you reasons for practicing. Best,

Zhan Zhuang shouldn't be pulling your qi up to your head ??? I'm not sure which type you are practicing, but your qi will only be going up if you are leading it up through subtle alignment and the way you hold the body. A core and foundational energetic aspect of standing is that you want to maintain a central focus on dantian, with a light peripheral focus on baihui, and a stronger peripheral focus on yongquan. This sounds more complicated than it is If you want to sink your qi, you want an awareness of yongquan, but if you lose awareness of the other end it doesn't sink so well. A focus on dantian is neutral, and allows storage. Give it a go if you want to, Best,

Where is the ache? is it muscular? or does it feel more in the joint? Is it front of the knee, side, back? You need to learn to open the knees and allow the weight to transfer through them. Your weight getting stuck there may lead to injury, and simply standing more doesn't always lead to the knees opening. Best,

It's a good book. Some of the translation is bit dodgy, but it's worth reading. Contains some of my great-grand-teachers teachings Best,

Is it healthy to be obsessed with something you have no direct experience or understanding of? Is it good because it fuels enthusiasm that drives us? Or is it tantamount to a virgin, obsessed with sex and whose view comes from having read a book and watching porn? Thoughts as clouds floating by.... Best,

I really couldn't agree more. Thank you, in an odd way, this made my day

What do you want to do? What are you trying to do? What do you want to spend your time doing? Best,

But please, don't take this really seriously, keep it light n fun Allow your mind/thoughts to go where they go from what others have said, does it help? Or does it not? If not, don't worry, you aren't missing out on anything special, just ignore it If it does, and a helpful insight pops up, share it

Word games are easy, and depending on who you read you can have a vastly different view on what a word is being used for. That is not the nature of my post. Look past the words, and or substitute them for whatever you want to, I don't mind. If you desire something, but don't know what it actually is, what is it you desire? In your obsession to move closer towards your desire, are you in fact doing so, if you are in fact desiring something else? Woods, trees, hansel gretel.... How do we know?

Figured you'd be one of the first to respond Very true indeed. What about being blind to the underlying assumptions that fuel that dedicated focus and whether the compass is mis-leading? Best

People seem to be confusing where their energy-body extends to and where their physical body 'stops'

Sorry disagree BIG time. Best,

Wrong? I watched the dvd, a fellow student lent it to our teacher. It is shit, and not worth bothering with. Find something worth taking the time with. Half of what he is going on about is simply not what he is doing. Besides anyone who actively tenses their muscles, because a camera is pointing at them, while supposedly doing "qigong" well, how do take them seriously? The only thing it is good for is the same as any light workout video. I apologise if this is upsetting, this is my view and not everyone may agree.

Not really. My picture of it is painted from many little pieces from all over. Nothing large all in one place. That is why I jumped at getting Kohn's book, it was a whole book looking at zuowang. But she goes so broad with the concept it all becomes a bit muddled. Zuowang was first mentioned texturally in the Zhuang Zi. To quote from Kohn's book; “I’m getting there!” “How so?” “I can sit in oblivion!” Confucius was startled: “What do you mean, ‘sit in oblivion’?” “I let my limbs and physical structure fall away, do away with perception and intellect, separate myself from body-form and let go of all knowledge, thus joining Great Pervasion. This is what I mean by ‘sitting in oblivion’.” (see Watson 1968, 90; Graham 1981, 92; Mair 1994, 64; Roth1997, 310; 2010, 198) "Zuowang here is an advanced state of meditative absorption....However, the Zhuangzi overall remains rather vague as to the exact procedures of meditation" Livia Kohn. Zuowang is generally viewed as the end result, the state achieved rather than the practice method. The seated meditations, jingzuo, jinggong, etc in Daoism are seen as working towards this. And as we all know, those methods vary depending on the sect and the time period. To draw on what I've written elsewhere -- 'Master Nan say that the Daoist theory of qimai first emerged from Zhuang Zi. And it is also within Zhuang Zi that we have the first textual reference to the Daoist practice of Zuowang. A primary method of cultivation. "The term tai chong, (太衝, written slightly later as 太冲), is clearly linked to a similar term in Zhuang Zi, da tong 大通, which other translators have rendered as Transformational Thoroughfare or Universal Thoroughfare." This is the little known column between Heaven and Earth, from which comes the qijing bamai, but most notably the chongmai, renmai, dumai. To quote again; "Hence, the sages did not call them chong, du, and ren, but referred to them [collectively] as the grand thoroughfare. The name grand thoroughfare refers to the arising ascent of essence qi within the body and does not only mean the sea of blood." Luo Dong-yi. Why is this relevant? Well lets return to Zhuang Zi but look at the Chinese with the above in mind; 墮肢體， 黜聰明， 離形去知， 同於大通， 此謂坐忘 "I slough off my limbs and trunk,' said Yan Hui, 'dim my intelligence and depart from my form, leave knowledge behind and become identical with the Transformational Thoroughfare. This is what I mean by 'sit and forget'. " James Legge translates it "My connexion with the body and its parts is dissolved; my perceptive organs are discarded. Thus leaving my material form, and bidding farewell to my knowledge, I am become one with the Great Pervader. This I call sitting and forgetting all things." The last two lines have also been translated as; "going along with the Great Thoroughfare, this is called sitting and forgetting." Now this previously obscure line actually makes sense, it puts the 'state' of "zuowang" that results from this identification and awakening of the energy-body in perspective. This 'picture' suggests that the practice of zuowang, an idea which has always maintained a central place in Daoist cultivation, is intimately related to an awareness of and awakening to the da tong/tai chong often equated with the zhongmai. As well as an opening of the whole energy-body via the qijing bamai, if we are to go with Zhang Zi-Yang's Bamai jing (eight vessel classic), and then Li Shizhen's 'Qijing bamai kao' (study of eight vessels). We should note that the last line 此謂坐忘 (ci wei zuo wang) states "This is what I call/mean by 'zuowang'". So everything written up to that point is describing what is then referred to AS zuowang. It doesn't say, and then I enter zuowang, or then I can attain zuowang. So the description of zuowang is everything that comes before that line. Meaning that identification with datong (transformational thoroughfare) IS the practice of zuowang. Why is that important? because now instead of simply being a lofty mental state, we can see that the shift in consciousness is and always was viewed as related to changes in the energy-body. "However, the Zhuangzi overall remains rather vague as to the exact procedures of meditation" Livia Kohn. Really? 墮肢體， duo zhi ti, refers to the body falling away, 黜聰明， chu cong ming, refers to letting go of senses/intellect, 離形去知， li xing qu zhi, refers to leaving form and leaving knowledge, 同於大通， tong wu da tong, refers to merging with 'da tong' (viewed as the mother of the 'bamai') 此謂坐忘 ci wei zuo wang, refers to how the above is understood as 'zuo wang'. Feels like describing progressive stages of cultivation practice to me. The real question then arises, is this sought through wuwei, or youwei? So that is a summary of many little bits n pieces of interesting but from my reading less well known aspects relating to zuowang. Best,

Jetsun, have you read any of Peter Levine's work? He released a new book recently, I don't have it but his older ones are great.

This thread; http://thetaobums.com/topic/25429-the-validity-of-traditional-chinese-medicine-and-its-teachers/

That sucks You won't even let people know the lineage? What's so secret about that? Do feel it is fair to ask people to become students, when they aren't allowed to know from whom they will be learning? I though teachers were proud of their lineage and that is why students often sought them out I understand about not giving out details of methods and practice, but this does confuse me Best,

Been curious about this book for a while now, Three pines press e-mailed me about it pre-publication. At the time I'd never heard of Wu Baolin. I'm starting this review, because I simply couldn't find much if any information on it anywhere when trying to decide to get a copy. The book is roughly in three parts; Introduction The eight immortals The sword practice The first two sections are a textured weave of Daoist lore and cosmology, the story of Wu Baolin, and the stories of the immortals. There are many very interesting aspects of Daoism dotted throughout the text. If anyone is familiar with, and or has any information on Dr Wu, I'd appreciate hearing more. However, for those who may be interested in reading the book. The stories about Wu's early adventures, are very much like that. They are written, for better or for worse, as though it is an account of a Louis Cha wuxia novel!! I have to say, I am amazed that Wu Baolin is still alive! Being left at Baiyun guan when 4 years old with a mysterious and fatal illness his 7 generation medical family were unable to cure, the Abbot cures him (the account in the book is somewhat different than that which appears in magazine articles on Wu Baolin). As a young and mischievious child, it seems Wu Baolin repeatedly went and ended up nearly dying via run ins with powerful esoteric martial artists. One hits him with 'black sand palm' a "very poisonous qigong skill", which nearly kills him, one hits him between baihui and dazhui affecting his qimai which nearly kills him. He was lucky to have had such a powerful master who repeatedly has to save his life and cure him. So is Wu Baolin as powerful as his over a hundred year old master (accounts vary as to his age upon ascension)? Well, it seems that while he didn't die, the master who nearly kills him by screwing up his qi, put a glass ceiling in meaning his development is stunted and his qinggong (lightness skill) will now not go any further. All this by around 7-8 years old! Wu also alleges to have taught Wang Xiangzhai the Daoist standing practices, implying their impact upon his development of Yiquan, this was around 1961-62, when Wu Baolin was 7-8 years old?? and Wang Xiangzhai was well, who he was at that time (In articles elsewhere it simply states Wu Baolin, although young remembers Wang Xiangzhai and Wang helping to correct his posture). Wang was there originally to challenge Wu's teacher (revenge for the death of his gongfu uncle), and went around breaking flagstones by stepping on them, and was only put off after a display of Daoist neigong through a large block of tofu. Thereafter he wanted to become A daoist and enter into study with the master, but wasn't allowed. I mention this one, because while it is easy to begin to wonder about the truth given what I know is possible in the realms of 'qigong', when you supply accounts about well known people it makes a difference. And things can be cross-checked. So, while enjoyable reading, the stories are so over the top they smack of being somewhere between the Chinese government propaganda for Shaolin and Wudang, and the well loved Wuxia novels. God only knows where the reality actually falls. But is that the point? I don't think so. It feel to me that Wu Baolin is enjoying using the age old story telling method to pass on important teachings and aspects from his own teacher. As they are written in the same tone as those of the legendary immortals. However, I do feel that some may read these stories a little too literally. There is some fantastic information regarding the Daoist view in this book, and it is certainly a great and reliable source of information on the Eight immortals from within a Daoist lineage that holds them dearly. The section on the sword practice, is accompanied by lovely illustrations showing the form. But as good as they are in capturing motion and the movement inherent in the postures (only seen better in the old Westbrook and Ratti books), they are still woefully inadequate for learning a form of such complexity. But then does anyone really buy a book to try and learn a form from? Best,

I just quite frankly dislike her book! I have several volumes edited by Livia Kohn from decades ago. The scholarly work is great. Some of it is a bit dated now, and as per usual I don't always agree with the academics. But they are great and well worth reading. Livia Kohn's more recent works however seem to be sliding and moving in a direction I can't quite fathom. Her experiential knowledge or lack of it, shines through in this updated version of an old books of hers. There is much in 'Sitting in Oblivion' that is simply shocking. I was highly disappointed with this book, and don't recommend it. I might one day track down a copy of the original version 'Seven steps to the Dao', as I can't help but feel it is all the 'updates' that have turned it into a pile of steaming......well. Her introduction to the topic wavers all over the place, and her best intentions to place and locate zuowang into a wider meditation context simply fail. Instead it comes across as muddled and confused and actually is detrimental to appreciating and understanding zuowang. Much is made of the alleged connection to Buddhist practises and vipassana and the shifts that occured during the Tang dynasty. It should be noted that the directions academics take the available evidence is always telling. And the fact that they argue and debate and come to different conclusions, really leaves only ONE for us to take. That no one actually knows, and each guess is as good as the other. It is shame that they can't just tell you this, instead of trying to sell you their opinion as fact. If you read widely enough the picture becomes muddier then clearer. Kohn misses some VERY important areas related to zuowang from a Daoist perspective and how it is understood and rooted in the actual classic from whence the term originates, the Zhuang Zi. Her actual translation work is dry and occasionally leaves a lot to be desired, as Joeblast mentions about the title. She often seems to try and be clever and find a better/more unique translation, but does it actually transmit the meaning behind the name/term? The only point of the book, really is to read the zuowang lun. Just avoid the packaging and that includes what Kohn tries to explain zuowang to actually be. Best,

it's a great book. Well worth reading, and a breath of fresh air in the world of 'pop' qigong books as i shows a different way, understanding and approach to qigong. I love Dr Chow's progression in his treatment and teachings, he comes across as a very skilled and knowledgable man. I have to say, that although aware of the title for years, i'd ignored it as 'just another Castenada style apprentice' book. But it's not. And you at least know the teacher is real!! Best,

While some might say it is blown out of proportion. The section on incorrect qigong practice in Bruce Frantzis' books are based on what occured to people studying Waysun Liao's methods. Out of respect, he doesn't name names (Bruce sponsored him, and brought him out of Taiwan). This is indisputable. Now, you can argue they didn't study correctly, they over did it, they misunderstood etc etc. However, he was their teacher, what happened to them, happened. Ergo, practicing with an actual teacher is probably for the best and then at least you know you are doing it right Take care,

YJM Bio has of course changed over time. Since teaching in the States he has met and worked with different people, to what depth I don't know. When he was first over he was apparently very open and honest in saying his intentions were to start a book business publishing qigong and martial arts books. And he has done very well. His actual qigong background when he moved was very poor according to his own bio. I know of few Chinese martial artists that are respected that think much of what he does, same goes for qigong. He reads a lot, translates a lot, and researches a lot. I know many Westerners who love his books. I think his engineering Phd has helped him hit the right formula for what people want to read. Best, P.S. Not looking to get into it with his fans. I know plenty on this board like his work, I'm just not one of them. I have read quite a few of his books, and I'm well versed in his work and his background, both from his publications and from old students of his. If you find value, great, i'm glad it's helped you.

The longer my time spent in internal arts, and the more I'm involved in Chinese energetic medicine, the more concerned about this I become. And the more I see the results of incorrect qigong practice. I have experienced the fall out from incorrect and stupid physcial training, and I've tasted a little of the same with qigong and meditation. I've watched friends and people I know fall into very strange places and spend YEARS finding themselves again. I look around at who is selling what, and who is teaching what and HOW they sell it or explain it or teach it. Myself personally, I was taught early on to always seek the source, to swim up river, and so finding people teaching Chinese arts with an actual connection and lineage past the the weird developments in both China and the West is what interests me. The more I find repuatable sources and get to learn actual Chinese internal arts, I find they are more simple than many would have you beleive, they take more work than some would have you believe, and they are more grounded and balanced than many would have you beleive. It is a perspective, and it certainly (in this cosmopolitan world) isn't the only one. Yet the more the old Chinese perspective unfolds it is easier to see who only has or understands a part of the whole, but thinks they've got the whole thing. The easier it is to see where chasing only half the picture has taken their personality (I love watching/reading old AND new interviews/articles by qigong teachers). Sure it is only one perspective, and I'm sure many would be more comfortable elsewhere. I think one of the most important things to learn is to be discerning and to have an appreciation for the WAY people present and sell themselves and what they do. Keep an open mind, and appreciate why someone explains something one way when others explain something another. Caveat emptor, there are far more charlatans than the real deal. Oh, and I don't mean charlatan's have no qi, or nothing to teach It seems common sense often gets over ruled by zealousness for doing, being, attaining something. Something that makes one unique or different, or dare I say 'powerful'. Everyone wants results, sure, but appreciate there is a process of development and instead of fixating on the end, why not take time working out where you are, so you know how to proceed without damage? A teacher can help with this, but these days it seems many feel a teacher would only hinder their own natural individual genius Want to be an olympic power lifter? Fine, take a look at your body where do you stand regarding attainment of that? How do you get from here to there? Do you spend time learning proper lifting form and technique? Or rush straight for the lifting rack and load up the plates? Want to have a powerful qi body? Do you even know how to take a look at where you are and what's going on with your qi? Do you spend time building a foundation or jump straight into 'Boost my qi 101' method? No worthwhile teacher or coach of anything doesn't have a process. Sure in the past many 'masters' hid behind keeping secrets or stretching the process out to 'starve' the student. Moving past that doesn't mean throwing the baby out with the bath water. Nature has a process. Daoism follows nature. Do we in our practice? The longer I'm on the 'Bums the more the older cats around here that I chat to, tell me they aren't going to post anymore. Many of the people who were worth listening to disappear, they feel drowned out by all the immature and stupid or harmful responses. This happens everywhere and is to an extent to be expected. I just don't think people realise what 氣功偏差 qigong deviation, or 走火入魔 zou huo ru mo actually is or can do. So. With the spirit of helping our fellow bums potentially avoid qigong related problems. Anyone with any stories, personal or of someone you know [please, no second or third hand rumours], that you would like to share to pass on a valuable lesson that may help someone else. Please use this thread to do so. I am NOT asking anyone to talk smack about a teacher, method, or system, i'm sure everyone is intelligent enough to be able to extract the important essentials of the lessons inherent in the stories. I'll get off my soapbox now Best,