寒月 Hanyue

Abolutely, responsibility should go both ways. I have found though, the reality all too often is not quite there yet unfortunately. But it's why I have the teachers I do. I came to the opinion years ago, that simplistically I can consider three things if my practice is not going where I feel/want/think it should. Whether that is simply not moving forward, or if the outcomes seem unwanted. It's the system/method: It's the teacher: It's me: There are various nuances to do with each of the above I won't bother going in to here. Though I will say, that what can appear to be one of the above, will change given time That's a very good point. How much are we treating the person in front of us, and how much do we project our expectations and models of understanding. Suppose it helps to practice the neigong and burn away those filters you've mentioned All the best,

Don't know if it is in your library system, but David Fontana's 'The Meditators handbook' is probably still my favourite introductory basic guide. It's what I recommend as an entry level book that gives a good overview of why you have the different approaches to meditation you do, and basic examples of the different kinds. His view on meditation influenced me deeply, and I have been taught anything that has changed that, only reinforced it. Can you do inter-library loans? Sometimes the cost is quite reasonable. Best,

If you want 'proper' meditation, go for 'proper' qigong too, this dvd is more than worthless and quite a joke. Seriously don't waste your time. It's kinda pretty, and he has a Chinese girls in the back blah, but well.... Best,

This is kind of my point, that people only assume such things occur ONCE they start practicing, but don't take stock of where they are when they encounter a practice. They assume the teacher will take the responsibility, and drop their own When does "qigong deviation" start? Is this why many teachers write off accounts or complaints by students when things go wrong? "Wasn't my method, there was soemthing wrong with them already", kinds sucks really I agree on the more forceful methods, and I know that is what qigong deviation refers to in the strictest sense of the term. But felt that starting a thread and then laying out definitions of qigong deviation would simply lead to the usualy dabates about what people think is or is not the correct definition. I hoped by leaving that, people could contribute any accounts without going there as much. Oops on my part?? No, indeed. I don't see change as deviation either. I see change as change, but change can be either for positive or negative. Which are perceptions we associate with what we like or want. In medical terms change that is 'negative' is "deviation", that is how I have come to understand it at least. Of course it does bring up the story of the old guy (really how many old guy stories are there!!); "There is a Daoist story of an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "May be," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "May be," answered the farmer. The day after, military officials came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe" said the farmer." Haha Thats why I like your perspective on medical qigong. Noted. All the best,

What can I say, working in the offic on the pc all day needs its distractions Shhh. it's a secret Good good All the best,

Indeed. Although the person I mentioned was not practicing anything, they were just a patient.

Hey RV, It is tricky to be sure. It is all too easy to only view things through the glasses we each wear. You know, 'frog in the well' syndrome. A medical doctor will see what they see, A TCM practitioner will see what they see, A qigong teacher will see what they see, A psychiatrist will see what they see, A nei/shen gong teacher will see what they see, I think having options and support is all you can do. Then you can at least move forward with options and get the support and help you need. Having a discerning teacher is, In my most humble and honest opinion, paramount for pursing real neigong that is going to open you up to all kinds of fun stuff! I still find it odd people just want to be e-mailed a 'secret manual' A side story. I know an elderly person. They come from an ethnic background that has some folk belief and superstition. They began hallucinating, they had good days and bad days. Their hallucinations were not just visual but physically felt by them too. They also fitted with old cultural ideas. On the good days when they were more self aware, they were aware they had been hallucinating and felt they were losing their mind.They started to believe they were being affected by spirits. The family were troubled. Everything being experienced fitted within that 'cultural' paradigm. Knowing there is a reality to this, can you discount it? I tentatively began to help, and the qigong would give them a few days peace. I also looked into their medical history, I found something that didn't fit. Got the family to have the specialist change the medication they were on. Bingo, hallucinations stopped. I don't discount any possibility, Eastern, Western, medical, esoteric and so on. To me that is the beauty of living now in THIS time Medical qigong with western medicine = medicine of the future Best,

There is also a new advert in the UK that stars Kevin Bacon and makes reference to the six-degress thing, it's advertising a phone or internet. I don't watch much tv but saw it yesterday, I used to play the six-degress game with my film studies friends over beer, pizza and a movie marathon so it made me smile Best,

hey I'll have to read some of your journal I have met people who went through varying intensities of this from a few years, through to decades. One, wouldn't/couldn't leave their house. Their energy body was so wide open they simply got hit with all the negative crap from others and couldn't cope. They had tried fixing or reversing it for a long time, they had (at that point in time) not found a way to do so. They were like that for years. I have no idea what practices they'd done. My friend mentioned before, had quite a mild version in comparison. I always loved Doc because he was so open and honest about the negative. I had had a strong spirit meeting early on, after being introduced to meditation, although not visually scary or threatening, the intensity and gravitas of the experience, scared the crap out of me as my adrenals hit overdrive, I blacked out and came to hours later. I was put off sitting for a long time after that. So when I was shown Doc's books it hit a chord Give away You mean you AREN'T trying to be a powerful demi-god!? And you're on this forum... I can't wonder how much the process is affected by the 'spiritual materialism' and jumping around from qigong method to qigong method that goes on?? I certainly agree, what can appear to be the same on the outside is not necessarily what is going on underneath. I have also seen however, that those into meditation or qigong will easily jump on that as being the cause for any and all negativity in their life! Reminds me of the 'oh it's your chakras!' hahaha I agree with Ya Mu that people should NOT ignore their physician and or therapist/mental health care. I also think they should have a sensible and well experienced teacher who they can talk to. I agree, and can count the number of teachers I feel fit into that category on one hand easily. Most I've met don't go look at who is in front of them at all Best,

You ain't Kevin Bacon, not yet I don't know about anyone else on the forum, but If I wanted to address anything to you because of a thread or post you'd made, I'd do it openly either on the forum or through pm. Like I have in this thread. I don't play subtle games with hints, don't see the point. So no this thread or it's creation has nothing to do with a post or thread of yours Hope your practice is still going well All the best,

Hi Ya Mu Thanks for chiming in I agree with this. Yet I also disagree in a sense. I feel anything can be a positive or negative, everything has their shadow. Environmental qi, is simply that, engage with it one way and it is positive and can be beneficial for our energy body and health. Yet it can also impact on us in ways that is detrimental to our energy body and health, hence the xieqi (pernicous influences). Not everyone has a teacher who is upfront about what they are passing on, where it can lead and what the students may experience. Sometimes such awakening can simply be through life and 'spontaneous'. I have met enough people who began to or dramatically awoke to a new perception of themselves and others without a teacher to help them or a support group of like minded people as you say. Their experiences were not always pleasant, and often resulted in years or decades of negative impact upon their lives. Awakening is a wonderful thing, I agree. However I also feel it can be, when mis-understood, and experienced in confusion something else entirely. I personally view any negative impact on a persons emotional, mental, or physical health resulting from changes or shifts in the energy-body or energy systems as 'qi deviation'. The EXACT same changes or shifts in another individuals energy-body or energy systems may result in amazingly wonderful spiritual experiences, or healing of illness, and be positive things. One person's medicine is another's poison, All the best,

Brazilian jujitsu to a yellow bamboo meet

Alone together....wandering

Another friend, lovely person. Eventually we found out we were both interested in healing and so forth. Turns out they had done Reiki with a teacher, the teacher had opened them up, but not taught or explained how to then live or adopt to the new changes in perception and so on. They found that they simply did not understand people as much anymore, why they wanted what they did, why they did what they did, why they looked at things the way they did. They found that when they tried to talk to people about their own feelings and views, people thought they were odd. I want to say here, that given the people I have met over the years (people who talk to God in the middle of a conversation with you, people who communicate with the great whale in the sky (yes you heard me right)) they were not all that out there in their views! This individual had spent years becoming more and more lonely and feeling isolated even though surrounded by friend and family. I couldn't believe I was the first person they had found that they felt understood them. Part of it was they had not been taught any new frame of reference for the shift to a different way of living and perceiving the world around them. Instead they had come to feel they were the only person like that. For some this might not be, but I do see this as 'qigong deviation', negative issues arising out of energy practice. Albeit, more likely from an unaware teacher. It wasn't that the method, 'what was done', was bad, had this been done in a better way they would simply have awoken in a pleasant way to a new unfolding reality. Instead it led to isolation, misery and a disconnect from people and the world. I want to say that it wasn't a one shot deal, a weekend workshop. There had been continued contact for a period of time. Places like the 'Bums, and similar are great in helping a sense of community and allowing people to know they are not alone in experiencing what they are. For me this is meant to come from your teacher, and your brother and sister students. But often it doesn't, or people have spontaneous awakenings, or start out on their own. Even though I was taught to keep my mouth shut (never was any good at it) I post here, and help moderate other lists, because of the support I've had, and because of meeting with people or benefit so much from hearing others and getting to realise they aren't as alone as they thought. As I'm sure others have found too, it is actually more the pm's, e-mails and private comments in person that keep me on the forum. Best,

To K and Cat Pillar, The social aspect and awakening can be REALLY hard! One of my teachers advises people to approach things as though being an "inter-planetary anthropologist", to do your best to approach social interaction as though being a 'participant observer'. You are there, you don't fully understand, but that is okay, you watch and observe and remain detached. I have actually found it can be harder when it is your own 'culture', when around other ethnicities it can be easier, there is an automatic 'otherness' when culture clash hits. But experiencing culture clash within your own culture can be weird and very alienating. There is also a much greater expectation for you to conform to accepted groups within your own culture, foreigners get more leeway . I'll post more about this area next... Best,

If this is in response to me? First let me say, while I quoted your post, it was simply as the most obvious example of overly focusing on a small aspect of the wider subject this thread is about, ie 'psychosis' over qigong deviation (I know , I know it's my own fault for naming the thread 'zuo huo ru mo' who most know as qi psychosis, but gosh darn it, it's catchier no ). Second, I never said anything about 'virtue' . If you want the truth, I often ignore much of what you post, simply because when I read it, it appears you only skim read the threads and feel a desire to post without actually having understood what anyone is talking about. Maybe I'm wrong on that, intention-perception disconnect on my part etc, but its why, for what it's worth Third, I want to say, I want you to contribute, I certainly don't want anyone to feel they can't/shouldn't contribute to a thread. But seriously, read what you've posted, does it have anything to do with qigong deviation? No, you're talking about relativity when it comes to behaviour and peoples perception of it, or internal moral dilemma with it. Interesting stuff for sure, can it be related to qigong deviation, i'm sure it could. But not the way you're talking about it. So in attempts to keep a thread on track... Fourth, 'virtue' is not the same as "being good", maybe you should look it up in either an old English dictionary, or a Chinese one. It's waht my teachers made me do. Don't take what YOU feel a word means as always what others mean when they use a term, words are tricky sonsa bitches like that Can be fun to explore a wider meaning to words, All the best,

True and even more true, Best,

Yes, it's sad. This is why I feel a teacher is required. One who has enough time in, and who is discerning enough. Best,

Yes, it has been pointed out that psychotherapy and meditation are not the same thing. The former is about returning an individual to a state of perceived functioning balance, the latter is trying to use that functioning balance as a platform for further development. Now the two are often confused, some with problems are taught rudimentary forms of meditation, or people with imbalances here of the benefits and pursue meditation. Okay, noted. Week long sitting retreats in cold damp environments can lead to a stiff erse!! Best

Let me snip this is in the bud before it goes any further This thread is not solely about psychosis. I did not mention it in my OP, with a brief re-read, as a term it came up in post 25! I used the terms 氣功偏差 qigong deviation, and 走火入魔 zou huo ru mo. Now 'zuo hou ru mo' is a colloqiual term that refers more to shen disorders that you may refer to as "qi psychosis", however 'psychosis' is a loaded term (aren't they all ) that carries connotations that don't always fit with shen disorders. Zuo hou ru mo, doesn't just apply to actual mental instability, hallucinations and so forth. It can simply manifest in the belief that what you are doing is correct and leading you to the Dao when it in fact is not and is creating imbalance in your system. Which is still deluded thinking. This thread is for people to share stories of qigong deviations that can arise from incorrect practice. Be they physical, emotional, or mental. See my example posts. There are MANY stories of this type dotted all over this board, the point was to allow a space where people could share in ONE place. You don't have to, no one does, it just meant the option was there, that you could, IF you had something you felt might help others. Instead it seems people would rather debate the relevance and such like ?? Strange given the quickness for posts to appear with such stories when certain actual methodologies are written about. Then warnings abound, sometimes harshly so. I apologise for lack of clarity in my OP, it kinda streamed from my subconscious in it's own way Hope this clarifies,

Ouch,

Doesn't have to be qigong "psychosis", shen disorders and qigong disorders can range in intensity, "psychosis" and the "zuo huo ru mo" are at the more extreme end and have the most severe symptoms. I agree with you, how do you differentiate? It is because of this mis-understanding that many plow on when they should not, but think it'll get better with time, but it actually makes it worse. I have been taught "If it can't hurt you, it can't help you", but I've also been taught, that Chinese arts (not saying the same is true for other paradigms) there is no real tradition of "You have to/should get worse BEFORE you get better." The point of this thread is to help people to learn to be more aware, and discerning in their practice, so they may avoid potential problems that can be avoided. To clarify that, there is a BIG difference between; That which is inside of you that is being cleared out (physically, emotionally, mentally) That which is changing and affecting you resulting in negative symptoms (physically, emotionally, mentally) If you have not learned to differentiate, and or, have no guidance from someone who can, then how you proceed is up to you and your own responsibility. In fact I will go so far as to say, that a large part of the learning curve for most people, is actually how to do this, How to practice in a way that benefits them rather than being detrimental. How do you address arising issues? Simply plow on regardless, or take stock? Best

Another friend of mine. Long term Zen meditator. When I met them, severe lower back issues and chronic pain. They were sitting as they had been instructed, they were told the pain would go away. It didn't, it just embedded itself deeper. This resonated with me. I spent years sitting in pain (thoracic, not lumbar), as I had been taught by my Buddhist and Western meditation teachers. "You just have tension, relax, keep sitting, your body will let go." Years later I found my idiosyncratic spine simply did not fit their teaching model, I had exacerbated my spinal health. I was taught a Daoist way to sit, eventually for the first time I sat pain free. This teacher helped me to understand my spine in sitting. I still have problems from before, but I'm better off. I went through the Daoist sitting with my Zen friend. Their back pain cleared up, and they suddenly found they enjoyed zazen again, they hadn't realised how much they had simply gotten used to trying to block out the pain when they sat. They became more grounded, and began to get more from their Zen work. Just because it's old, just because your teachers are legit, doesn't mean they know what is best for YOU. Maybe you've misunderstood them, maybe they've misunderstood you. If something seems wrong listen, don't ignore it, trust me Best,

A close friend of mine began to practice their meditation more and more. This practice involved some energy-work and also journeying, both within, and going inside to go elsewhere. They were very good at it. Slowly they found that they preferred being 'there' than here. They began to dislike people. They saw other people as beneath them, because others couldn't go and experience what they could. An arrogance and separation emerged and a withdrawing away from people and society. It became a negative spiral. They attracted, or developed protective thought-forms that would chase others away (experienced by enough independant people for verification). 5 or so years later, they have found themselves again, are much more balanced, and actually seem happy in the world again. Too much of one kind of work, without a strong enough anchor maintaining balance? Best,

This is a very good question. Especially without a teacher. If made aware of warning signs, then the neophyte at least knows that those may be a sign of heading down the wrong road. If you aren't even aware problems may occur, why would you stop? My Chinese medical teacher has met and treated many people who passed the line that I'll call common sense, and continued to practice what they were doing regardless of what you might think were obvious warning signs of incorrect practice. It seems, when it comes to cultivation and qigong, people assume weird stuff happening is normal or okay. I'm talking about blisters appearing on the body, red dots from burst blood vessels appearing, pains, postural distortions, dramatic shifts in bladder and bowel function, migraines, genital aches, problems with vision, social functioning and so on. Now I could get the medical text books out and simply list symptoms etc. But people always read that with a distance between themselves and what's written. It isn't 'humanised'. I felt stories from fellow 'bums about what has actually happened, over lists of what may/could/might/ happen. Would make preferable reading. Best,