寒月 Hanyue

Hi Jetsun, [Though in danger of creating further thread drift by responding, I feel this topic is best explored at least a little further. However, if anyone wants to debate it to death, can we start a new thread and do so elsewhere?] I remember reading Ken Cohen's critique of this years ago. I have to say I actually disagree. For one, he polarises 'traditional' psychotherapy with TCM In regards to treating emotional and mental issues in the West there are many directions, and a 'somatacised' view of the body is popular in dealing with emotional imbalances due to stress, PTSD and to trauma. Many have found treating the mind leads only in circles, but if the body can release, well. On the other hand the approach to 'shen disorders' in classical Chinese medicine is a deep and thorough subject, and is NOT simply about organ associations. TCM uses zangfu (organ) theory as it's backbone simply because it was the closest of the Chinese medical maps to Western anatomy. Zangfu has therefore become the main theory that everything in TCM is nailed to. This emphasis is in fact not the way the body, nor the systems of qi were viewed. It has been noted in several disciplines, even Tibetan Buddhism (mostly sought after by Westerners because of its depth of study relating to the mind) that the transference of such understanding from a different culture and time to the modern West is not without problems. I agree with much of what Cohen writes, and in fact with his conclusion. That a balanced view of appreciating the link between mind-body is best, not weighing heavily in one or the other. But his argument is unfortunately based on a falsity and a gross over-simplification of the situation in both China and the West IME. People think, feel, experience and emote differently today. The emotional imbalances we face are unique to our culture. It is not so simple as to say ancient Chinese didn't understand the complexity of emotions. The transference of methods from any culture with a long history is problematic. I also feel it is incorrect to think a culture 'turns' emotions into anything. Like it is WRONG? to experience things a certain way? Isn't that just ethno-centrism? Generally in the 'West' we have a disconnect with our bodies and how we feel and experience many aspects of life. We are slowly finding that what we once saw as 'being in your head/mind' does actually have a direct physiological correlate. So to experience emotions 'mentally' or 'physically' is STILL to experience them. I think "emotionally stunted" is harsh and I'm actually quite surprised at that in your post I do however agree, that just because something is old, or from another culture and all the mystique that can come with that, does NOT mean it is necessarily best or helpful for someone today. Either physically, mentally, or emotionally. It may be wonderfully helpful, but it might not. All the best,

Thank you to everyone for the positive reception of the thread. Before too much thread drift occurs, may I re-post this from the OP I want to add, that in reality (or I should say my experience), there is no fixed understanding of zuo huo ru mo. And sometimes it is also easy to attribute anything and everything to your practice, when in fact it has nothing really to do with it. What is true for some is not true for all, but many systems do have a kind of 'if the majority are helped it's all good' attitude, and becoming aware that the minority exists, and you don't know if you'll be one of them, I think is preferable. Then people can make decisions upfront with balanced information. I ask for PERSONAL accounts, there have been many of these over the years. They exist scattered throughout the forum in dark and random corners. The point of this thread is to allow a single place where warnings may be placed. But, as mentioned, please keep them to actual accounts of problems that either you, or someone you know has experienced. Consider it a gift or giving back to the Bum's community, and helping the neophyte seekers who find their way here and want to jump in feet first Best to you all,

WTF!!!! There is a thread about this, and I don't seem to be asleep??? Can people f*ck with you energetically? Yes Does this often mess your head up? Yes Is this girl an evil witch/mage in disguise sucking up your vital essence? NO! You know, the funny thing is whether or not you beleive she's done anything intentionally or unintentionally, or whether she hasn't, what is best for you to do is EXACTLY the same. Stop thinking of everything as mystical. Learn more about human interaction and relationship (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Secrets-People-Whisperer-communication-enhance/dp/1844135632/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1352654785&sr=1-1). Learn some basic meditation that helps calm and empty the mind and settles those raging emotions of yours. Get into doing something physical and learn to feel that body from the inside out. Grow to appreciate yourself. Love hurts, life lesson 101 Best,

Both 'natural' and 'directed' practices are valid and have their place IMO, However, and it is a BIG however, directed practices are VERY misrepresented both in China and the West. To the extent that many translations of Chinese texts ADD the 'direction/active' aspect that doesn't appear in the actual Chinese. This is because the translators assume that the method/practice can ONLY be done through consciously directing and actively trying to move your qi about with your yi. Best,

There are no 'physical' structures like you want to hear that ARE the qimai (channels). If there were all the people looking for them for decades or longer would have found them, they aren't stupid people. Every now and then someone comes up with a Western "anatomical" structure they believe parallels the qimai, but this is incorrect thinking. Qi runs through ALL of your tissues, bones organs etc. Yes there are 'routes' that we the flow of qi can be perceived more strongly, these are the various channels of the channel system. Renmai runs along the front of the torso. Dumai runs along the back but is outside the spine NOT through it. Zhongmai (goes by other names too) runs between baihui ontop of the head and huiyin (perineum) The heart lies within the thoracic cavity, this is behind renmai. The 'dantian', well which one for a start, but generally that lies within the abdominal cavity. They aren't train stations on a train line you know The channels are not limited to the route as depicted in TCM diagrams. But yes it sounds like you REALLY need to get a teacher, or at the very minimum get a source that explains this to you, instead of running qi around channels that you have no clue about. You could screw your system up, as you found out. Best,

I have a question, so Golden Path if you can I'd love to understand more clearly. If anyone else knows then please chime in too The 'lineage' on the site goes; 柳華陽 Liu Huayang I Teacher of single Yang The dates for Liu Huayang are 1736, to a tentative date of 1846. So who were the lineage holders between 1846 and today? Neither Liao Ran了然 nor Liao Kong 了空 are mentioned and yet they are referred to in Chinese sources (not just Zhao Bichen's school, which I know is not considered legit by Wu-Liu pai) as being students of Liu Huayang, with Liao Ran and his questions actually appearing in Liu Huayang's writings. So since the Chinese name for 'Teacher of single Yang' is not given, was/is he a student of Liu Huayang, and does that mean he is pushing around 170! Or have there been teachers in between, or since 'Teacher of single Yang'? Just interested in hearing more about the lineage and how it has been passed down. Best,

It's always interesting to see where threads end up going For those saying the terms are not important or a distraction or confusing etc. If you are in a lineage that is a traditional Chinese art, and it uses these terms because they are the traditional Chinese cosmology, then these terms will have to be engaged with. Hopefully your art will actually lay it all out for you rather than keep it mysterious and confusing. They are however simply A way, and not THE way, they are a map and as such are meant to help you navigate the territory not get you lost. But as with ANY words/terms/maps, no they are not the thing itself, and so you should not get hung up on them, or feel that using them means you understand the deeper thing they point to any better. You can fully experience and deeply know ALL they refer to and never know these terms. They are simply the cosmology of the macrocosm and microcosm as laid out in old China. Given that the original post and question was; It means we have to USE THESE TERMS, that is what was being asked. Not if they are relevant, not if they make sense, but what they are and HOW they make sense. As for translations, old Chinese, classical Chinese, modern Chinese etc etc The Chinese language is relative, not definitive. There is and never has been A SINGLE definition for ANY word in Chinese. The meaning comes from the context it is being used in. And meanings, as in any language do change over time. If you want to understand a term used in an old text you have to look at the 'dictionaries' as close to that period as possible. See how the term was understood and used at that point in time. Otherwise you are simply projecting meanings that didn't necessarily exist at the time the author penned the text. Thank you Sufidao, the way you've laid out phrases of usage is how old dictionaries lay out context for words so you can grasp meaning. However the original post mentioned a specific context, bagua zhang; Which is not all that old in the grand scheme of things. As someone pointed out, the use in Bagua zhang today of xian-tian and hou-tian to refer to the circular or linear walking drills seems odd to them in the context of the terms being used to refer to the earlier and later bagua patterns. Lets just say, bagua and bagua zhang are NOT the same thing. I replied from a cultivation point of view because that is largely what was adopted into bagua zhang, it is also what most on this board are interested in. It is also from living traditions that still exist in China. Chinese cosmology was worked out a long long time ago, it hasn't changed, it is what it is. It's fluidity comes through its application for contextual use. When applied to specifics and through lineages you will find minor variances. Like cooking, local flairs or variances in a dish. But it's the same dish. The same Chinese words can in English mean; Pre-heaven Post-heaven Pre-Natal Post-Natal Earlier-heaven Later-heaven Earlier-day Later-day Same words, the context they are being used in changes the inflections of their meaning. In Chinese the words don't change, but the meaning does, in English we would change the words accordingly. In cultivation it is usually pre/post-heaven, in medicine it is usually pre/post-natal, in feng shui it is usually earlier/later-heaven. It is all application of the SAME concept but the aspect being used fits the context. There is no either or argument. It does however mean you can tell who really understands, because sometimes people confuse them across in translation. So you get people using pre/post-natal when they should be using something else. If I ask a question about boxing, who am I going to listen to? Preferably someone with time in a boxing gym, someone who had coaching, and maybe even stepped in a ring once or twice. I'll take that over someone who's spent 30 years watching boxing on tv and hitting a heavy bag in their basement. So I listen to my teachers, given that I know and gratefully appreciate where their information comes from. Best regards, and I hope some find this helpful

The direct relationship of yi jing and the bagua to bagua zhang is a debated area. The use of the terms to signify linear movement drills (a later development in bagua zhang) over the circle walking, is a quite recent thing only found in some styles of bagua zhang. How well this concept makes use of the terms they have adopted to describe it, is well anyone's guess and is certainly up for debate I relate it above simply because it IS terminology that gets thrown around within bagua zhang circles (parden the pun), and as such should be addressed in case of confusion. Best

Thank my teachers, I wouldn't understand even the bit that I do without them Anyway, since you asked about Baguazhang, let me add a little more. The Chinese medical use/application of xian-tian and hou-tian is understood as 'pre-natal' and 'post-natal'. Pre-natal: "is a reflection of xian-tian, but on the scale of our bodies and our existence...referring to the individual before it's birth, both in utero and before procreation." Post-natal: "is a reflection of hou-tian, but on the scale of our bodies and our existence....referring to the individual human (body) and it's pattern of existence post birth." According to Bruce Frantzis "[xiant-tian] qi practices (including bagua) attempt to reconnect with the original cosmic forces, charging the 'battery' just like it was charged while in the womb..." while "[hou-tian] qi practices are basically limited to optimising what remains of a person's original pre-birth qi." The circle walking practice is considered xian-tian, while the linear practices in some styles are considered hou-tian. This makes sense, because the linear practices are about fighting technique and drilling it, which is about acting and being in the world, it is outward which is hou-tian. While the circle walking is about cultivating and connection inward, xian-tian. It should be noted, that many these days apparently do circle walking as hou-tian and do not put xian-tian cultivation within it. Take care,

It's not easy, and words don't do it justice. I have only been taught one system that has really laid it out in a way that it all makes sense. I'm sure there are others, and their interpretations are just as valid. But most over the years sprout parts and not the whole picture with clarity. Though I wonder about the Feng Shui sources Taomeow has recommended and how it is all laid out there, maybe she'll have time to contribute to this thread. Below is xian-tian (pre-heaven) and hou-tian (post-heaven) related to cultivation. Please bear in mind these are just words, and it is the words that you can get hung up on, you might be surprised to realise you already know this, just not with these terms. Xian-tian: "refers to before the Universe split and divided into all things. Thus xian-tian refers to what existed before there was anything, the original state of no time or space." Hou-tian: "refers to after the Universe went from One to Two to All Things. Thus hou-tian refers to a reality that has shape and form, and is what we experience now." Xian-tian and hou-tian are a polarity, the former is about experiencing the Dao, the latter is more about being in harmony with the Dao. They are not the same thing, but as with any polarity the division is a human construct, and Daoism's aim was to achieve both, to be aware of and experience the Dao and also be in harmony with it. This is about understanding taiji as a map. Some methods of cultivation are very much in one direction or the other, going inwards (xian-tian) or going outwards (hou-tian). Others seem to start more in one direction, but actually take you the other way. So you want to make sure things are balanced. To go in, you have to go out, to go out you have to go in. The more you make of your hou-tian potential, the deeper you can go into the void the wu, xian-tian. And vice versa. Hou-tian practices tend to be about you in the world, developing and improving yourself, opening your channels, extending you neiqi (inner qi) outward gathering waiqi (external qi) inward and so forth. Xian-tian practices tend to be about dantian, zhongmai and going deep inside until 'you' disappear. Very simplistically, this is why you have practices of maintaining a certain 'physicalness' that enables you to sit and meditate. But both are much much more than that. It is the balance between these that is what makes Daoism Daoism, and not Buddhism or HInduism etc You want balance, it is not about going all in one direction and doing the minimum here so you can go somewhere else. You are here, this IS the Dao, you want to be in harmony with it, and realise and experience it. Experience is waking up to the Dao, to the one-ness and connection. You are part of Dao. You can wake up and touch that, but not be in harmony with it. Harmony is like a fish in water, it is in harmony with the water, but not aware of it. So you want that harmony, but you also want to wake up and realise. This is diving into both xian-tian and hou-tian and not mistaking the achievements of either for the other. It's all about movement (little or small), just a shift in focal point so to speak, hence the yi jing. Bagua zhang, taiji quan, xingyi quan etc as generally done will all be about developing hou-tian. It is rare, but not impossible to plug in xiantian practice into these things. Most "qigong" these days is all about hou-tian, which is why they often get the label 'for health'. My teacher explains that equating hou-tian with 'health' is not really accurate. Real neigong will be xian-tian and this is why it is not the same as most 'qigong'. Martial artists like Sun Lutang, Wang Jiwu, Hu Yaozhen, Liu Hongjie etc plugged xian-tian practices into their martial arts. Again the above are only words pointing at something, not really the thing itself. I've tried to do it with out system specifics so I hope it still makes sense. There is much more depth to it all. Hope this helps,

Ahh, I thought I'd hinted quite well already No I do not know a book that lays out what I'm talking about, not in the way you would like. While there are some methods that tend to produce/result in certain qi sensations more then others. It is not so much that there is 'electric qi gong' per se. Each indiviual will experience qi differently. But look at the name, does it have 'thunder' or 'lightning' and similar metaphors in the title? This was an indicator, but thesedays people like using such imagry in names with no relation to the practices, so Additionally, not everyone likes to advertise what they do, so just because it isn't in a name doesn't mean they don't go there I've been taught a way to monitor and understand my practice, so as to make the manifestation of specific qi sensations more reliable over time. Nothing grandiose or mystical about it. Just hard work and time put in. This piece of the puzzle is something I learned more recently and so have not had time to plunge it's depths. So out of respect for my teacher and the lineage I'm not going to try and explain it. I mention it just to say that it is NOT system or method specific, it is simply a process of engaging with what is happening and learning to recognise what is happening and why. IF you practice a GOOD neigong system that truly awakens the dantian, you will begin to experience yangqi. This may be more electric in sensation or more fluid, either sensation is simply an indicator of the qi. That said, understanding the use of intra-abdominal pressure in a safe manner, is a component of the systems I am aware of. I say safe, because many things get lost in translation. Like Chinese concepts that mean to create more internal space that fills with qi ie 'storing', becoming ideas of "packing" which carries connotations of sqeezing and making smaller and more compact. BIG DIFFERENCE. My recommendation is to find and practice and solid neigong system, and a waigong practice. They need to be balanced. However people confuse the idea of balance and harmony by thinking that means equal. It does not. If you balanced rest and activity you would sleep 12 hours and be active 12 hours, actually the healthy balance is not always "equal". Same in cultivation. If you haven't seen Tao Semko's explanation of the differences in Kundalini experiences and manifestations it's worth watching. His view mirrors that which I was taught; Best,

Bruce's bio has always had a somewhat 'maleable' aspect to it. Especially when you read different versions published over the last 30 years. While not defending Bruce, most who know him know he tells a great story (and stories always get exaggerated in the telling, doesn't matter who the story teller is). You should bear in mind that much of what gets published from Bruce these days was edited by his Energy Arts office. They do often have a way of changing the wording of things when re-releasing them that doesn't quite fit what was originally said. Over promotion? Just slightly A lot of what comes out of Bruce's mouth I simply can't stomach, and I can stomach less now than I could years ago. The truth is easily lost in the re-re-re-telling IMO. Best,

Something like that, but words are words which we always have to keep in mind, right. Chinese cultivation is, and always has been quite specific from what I've been taught. A couple of phrases one of my teachers uses are, 'the false has become real, and the real has become false', and 'the basic has become advanced', what was once taught early on and was no secret because everyone knew it, has become rarer, and now things are often backwards, and people hold onto the basic and some even see it as advanced. This is partly because of charlatans, misunderstanding and lineages not being passed on. The teachings within real lineages are often simple (the result is in the gongfu, the spare time and effort put in). Today many are doing or teaching things with the same names or terms, but they are not doing the same thing. "A rose by another name...." terms and names are not important, but what you doing IS. You want a good bottle, and you want decent wine in the bottle. Developing either is not developing the other, but both work best together. Waigong is NOT neigong. But they are related and do compliment each other hence phrases like "nei wai he yi" or the 'internal and external come together as one'. One daoist teacher told me, it was all about undertstanding the point of change, not the one thing or the other thing, but when and how one changes into the other. Grasping 'that', they said, was important. Why do you think I love stillness-movement neigong Best, P.S. Please note, "Strong Qi" does not mean you have "Electric Qi", and "Electric Qi" does not mean you have "Strong Qi". The sensations you, or someone else feels from the presence and movement of qi have to do with how that qi is manifesting in and moving through the body. Some however will train and practice to be able to reliably manifest those sensations, this is a skill and is different from 'having a type of qi', does that make sense?

Yes. Though I'm being slightly presumptuous. I don't know Robert Peng, and I know enough about Sifu Chang to know I don't know what he does so this is not about him. However in the lines of Xing-yi (and some bagua) there are accounts of this kind of ability, and I am aware of aspects of that. First let me say, 'qi' can be felt either via nerves or from fluids, this I have been taught from several sources and so it seems beyond simply 'one style's' way of thinking. When felt through nerves it tends to be electric, zappy, tingly, or like lightning. Fluids is different. From this it is often clear which systems appear to advocate training that has an emphasis for one or the other or a balanced approach. It is NOT that you have 'electric' qi or whatever, the sensations are just that, and are a feedback for how you feel the qi. With practice you can learn to use qi in ways that produce those sensations more than others. Make sense? You want to balance and practice xiantian (pre-heaven) and houtian (postheaven) methods. The xiantian gong tends to be the deeper more internal stillness practices that take you into yourself and back towards emptiness. The houtian gong tends to be about balancing and developing what and who you are here and now, physically, energetically etc. They are intimately related. Like the phrase 'to go out, go in, to go in, go out'. You can only go so far one way, without a balanced opposite. Xiantian gong tends to emphasise building and developing dantian and zhongmai. Martial artists tend to emphasise houtian, because they need to fight. But the development of intent that aids the xiantian gong is defintely improved through the practice of martial arts. Yi Quan if taught well is great houtian, however it is extremely rare for anyone to be doing xiantian within it. Best, For some more information see; http://thetaobums.com/topic/23696-%26%2336798%3B%26%2325705%3B%26%2320808%3B%26%2322825%3B%26%2321151%3B-damobodhidharmas-xian-tian-gong/#entry340654

Was thinking of you guys, from all accounts it was quite a workshop!!! Best,

Tricks?? you want tricks? How about addressing any circulations issues you might have and actually fixing the problem? Not trying to 'force' blood into your hands to make them warmer when YOU feel like it, sheesh.. no wonder people hurt themselves and piss their bodies off. If you are a massage therapist you should know anatomy. What is going on in your clavicular region? Your shoulders? how tight and constricted are your ribs, your upper back and shoulder blades? Before upping the power of the pump, check the piping. If it ain't getting through, trying to force more though is daft. PROPER gentle donggong with actual content to release open the joints and tissues should provide more than enough blood flow to the hands without having to try and explode your heart or learn 'tricks' to push more flow in temporarily. Which special moving practice? doesn't matter, what matters is HOW you are doing it, not what. Work WITH your body and STOP seeing it like an enemy!! What's strange about that! surely that should be well, Duh! The question here should be, well my body CAN have the flow to the hands, how do I learn to maintain that relaxation for longer and longer and longer until it's 24/7? And this kinda answers you own question no, you are tense and shutting off your own circulation. Deep relaxation work combined with moving practice that actually RELEASES not STRETCHES or FORCES or PULLS open the body. You may surprise yourself Hint, think 'release the nerves' not 'stretch the tissues'. Good luck, Best

Really ????

Neigong is a 'layered' practice. If the layers as well as the whole are understood, each teacher makes a decision on how to layer the material. Nothing is fixed, it is all relative. If a strong young guy who is used to physical work and who has no signs of skeletal alignment problems comes to you, then how or when you layer in certain aspects are VERY different. Than if someone out of shape etc You get the idea. Common sense? You'd like to think so, however having spent a LONG time going to see teachers of martial arts and neigong this rarely happens. When you write a book, you do not know who is going to read it, or how they are going to engage with the material. For this reason Bruce always leaves out any aspects of his neigong he feels may cause harm. That's why you don't have a book on spiralling, or on the layers other than the foundation of spinal neigong. It's a decision. Anyone putting out material publically has to make that decision. Yes Tangora puts a 'don't do this at home' type warning, but everyone knows what those warning mean . And they are ignored more often than not, if even noticed by the zealous readers after the secrets of internal power. IMO the warning is not enough. You have to lay out the progression from 'A', and explain how and why each layer should be in place to further your practice and maintain safety. Not present stuff from 'F' with little nod to what should be in place before it. People always want to try things beyond where they are. Which is fine if under guidance. In fact I advocate it. Neigong is not and should not be attempted as a linear development. It is playing with things just outside of your reach that helps you understand why the previous layers are there and needed. So you can keep cycling through and move forward. Personally, I couldn't help but feel that anyone reading the book, that did not have an awareness of the spinal neigong process would be misled, and potentially hurt themselves. Please know that moving the spine about to improve ROM, as I have seen taught elsewhere as "spinal qigong/neigong" is NOT the same thing. The deep layers being worked with in this spinal neigong have a much stronger effect on your spine, nervous system and everything else. Just to clarify, I am not trying to say spinal neigong has to, and can only be taught in the progression layed out by Bruce. I am saying that when you have a process of development, NOT going through the foundational layers and only presenting stuff from later on can cause confusion and (with something like the spine) may be harmful when you don't know who is going to be playing with it. I want to say, overall I enjoyed the book and liked it, holes aside. As I said ALL books have holes in them, the reader should ALWAYS be dicserning, caveat emptor. No author can lay out everything. Mantak Chia is another author who many have taken pieces of a process out of context, played with it with zealousness and hurt themselves. Readers have to take responsibility, as do authors. It isn't a one way street. As for spinal neigong, I don't know anyone who has written about it. You get basic ROM or stretching exercises, and you get different 'energy' practices. But not spinal neigong which is closer to learning to do cranio-sacral therapy to yourself. Martial artists allude to aspects of it, most demonstrations of layers in qigong are simply awful and not worth mentioning. The closest and safest things I have seen out in the public domain are actually the layers that appear in various 'somatic' disciplines, however extrapolating it out from the rest without knowing which bits would aslo be a tall order. So recommending a book simply for such small tidbits seems redundant too. Best,

I second those saying don't play around with such things without a teacher. What did you do? You sublimated your sexual energy into your brain, released loads of chemicals you don't usually experience (bliss), and then had a come down as that release of chemicals dissipated in your system. No sexual charge is common, it can either become strong or simply drop away leaving no libido. Now you know the real secret to 100 days or complete celibacy. It isn't always permanent but can be. There is a reason Doc Morris taught the secret smile and similar practices. It helps smooth out the process of chemical dumps in the body so when you do release stuff through practice you can avoid a backlash come down. Be careful, depending on how many chemicals are dumped the bliss can easily become negative, and bi-polar symptoms and or depression can arise. My advice, contact a teacher who KNOWS the process and can guide you to avoid "screwing yourself" as Doc might say, pun intended. Best,

Anything, CAN be helpful. Yes my comment does doesn't it. Tangora has had more than one teacher. What he does and teaches is not simply Bruce's material but informed from all his teachers. Yet it is clear just how much the way he teaches and how he teaches has been influenced by Bruce. I personally don't get some of how he teaches cloud hands in the book as it contradicts the way I've learned it from Bruce, which is odd to me given the indicated sources of info in sections of the book. There are also holes in the presentation of material, and the presentation is such that it is potentially harmful to someone just playing around from the book. In particular the spinal neigong. Learning in person is different, the book as supplementary is great. Take it from me, don't fuck with your spine! If he wanted to present a later layer rather than simply rehash what is already in print, fine. It would simply wash with me better if there was at least a note to say work through exercises A-G in this book first, for example. But it doesn't. There are simply things you want to get going or have going on before you play with certain things. The implications for some neigong layers are more risky than with other layers. Playing with the spine is a risky layer. How well do you KNOW YOUR spine, even long term martial artists or 'qigong' people I've met generally do not. I want to say that all books have holes!. Even Bruce's books have holes, and creates incorrect perceptions. This is why people turn up to teacher trainings having taught themselves from his books, and can't even do the most basic aspects, yet have convinced themselves they can. Getting actual feedback on just what IS or IS NOT happening in your body, and learning to become aware beyond that which you are aware of, is one the fundamental aspects of neigong. It's REALLY hard to do that without a teacher, because the only feedback you have is yourself, and you lie to yourself, your body lies to you all the time. If it didn't and you already had that level of awareness, you don't need the book anyway! I am NOT implying from the above that Tangora's knowledge or ability has holes in it. But a book is a book, and is only a rudimentary snapshot at best. It's tough to decide what to include and what to leave out. As a book that shows an overview of what can be going on in cloud hands great, expecially if it inspires people to seek instruction in these deeper neigong layers. As something to use to teach yourself, well there is reason it is called 'Gateway to ADVANCED taiji'. So when someone wants to teach themselves, no it is certainly NOT a book I recommend. Best,

Yes. But it seems people want to make it a romantic idea and all about something else. People 'in love' like to think/feel what they have is special. Soul connections have NOTHING to do with choice or ideas or notions in this lifetime as far as I know. Best,

There is no absolute direct correlation that you can intellectually draw between Daoist alchemy and Buddhism. Trying to fit terms, descriptions, or methods into each other, will have you going in circles more than likely. However, the idea of 'Dual' cultivation in certain forms of "Daoism" has always been understood as pursuing a deep understanding and practice of BOTH Daoism and Buddhism. There are many many figures who have been highly regarded and attained much in their life time who took the time to deeply pursue both paths. They saw no conflict and obviously benefitted from the practice of both paths. These are people from a long time ago and more recently, look at, Hakuin, Liu Huayang, Liu Hong Jieh, Lu Kuanyu, Hu Yaozhen, Nan Huai Chin, to give a snapshot of people from a variety of angles. I don't think trying to 'DO' both at the same time, is necessarilly a good idea. However allowing yourself to swim in the waters of one for a time, does not mean you cannot swim elsewhere at another time. I agree with GMP, you don't need a monestary, but deciding to spend some time there is not a bad thing either, it's an individual choice. I also agree with Jetsun, probably the most accessible and easiest commentator on Buddhism-Daoism is the later Master Nan. Best, P.s. I'm with GMP, and I'm glad its not New kadampa!

You're welcome, Wet brain? sounds great I have a few books on neurophysiology on the go (I read about 10 books simultaneously but slowly ) will look it up. I don't actually have any books by S. Chang, not sure why? Thanks for the gourd meditation. I see what you mean. Bruce teaches the outer dissolving to start at the crown (baihui), and then later to begin from the gate above the head within the etheric body. I can't help but see a parrallel, though described purely energetically and without ideas of eggs, elixirs, frangrant medicines etc. He also teaches 'old' Ch'an methods he says never made it to Japan, shrugs ? Thanks to everyone for their contributions, Best,

Thanks for all that, very interesting indeed I look forward to reading through that, now just to find the time Best,

Thanks for the link I hadn't seen your thread before, thank you for posting up a sober, honest, practical and genuine account. There are MANY important points mentioned. It should be a sticky, or at least linked to everytime these questions come up, which is about every other week, if not more. I couldn't agree more with channeling into DOING something, and that the energy needs/wants to be used for something. Great stuff, Best