寒月 Hanyue

Ya Mu has been appalled at the prices some are trying to sell his book. The kindle option was to allow people access without being ripped off. I have the kindle book on my pc and my android phone. You don't need an actual 'kindle' device. Best,

I also like the way Sifu Matsuo discusses the heart. However on the "Jinshin" dvd I watched it is not a main thing. He does however often go into aspects and discussions on the heart during his teaching of various methods. And there are some great extracts on his youtube account, I don't know if you'd have already seen them though ? So I don't think it is tied solely to the Jinshin workshop quoted by Trunk if you want to chase it up. Best,

R.I.P Master Nan, and thanks for all you've done for those seeking the Dao. Love n Light,

First a disclaimer of sorts I like Sifu Matsuo, I like his energy, I like the way he teaches. I think he is skilled at what he teaches and has a LOT to offer and teaches very openly. What I write below is not a criticism of him, or his ability or his Dragongate Sanctuary (DGS) system as a whole. It is a review/critique of his Jinshin dvd that I have viewed. And the subsequent confusion regarding the lineage. The healing art that first found me was Jinshin Jyutsu. I was very drawn to it, and after playing with it for a while in combination with the qigong I was learning, I tracked down the person who had brought it over to this side of the Big pond and studied with them. I have not done the complete training, and do not pretend to have full knowledge of the system. I have found however that there is much in the system that is in line with the way Chinese medicine used to be taught, prior to TCM. This makes sense given that after Murai sensei healed himself through meditation and mudra, he began healing others and eventually he was given access to the Imperial archives in Japan for his work. He researched the Japanese copies of the old Chinese medicine texts and used that to develop a grounded theoretical approach to the healing work he was doing. From what I understand the way jinshin was taught in japan is quite different to the way Mary Burmeister disseminated her knowledge of the art after returning to the states. This is typical and understandable, you teach to the audience you have. In Japan it continued with Dr Haruki Kato. I recently had the chance to watch sifu Matsuo's DVD on "Hirai shiki Jin Shin Ho". Which according to DGS information appears to be a 'sister' lineage of Jinshin jutsu having come out of Japan with the Hirai family. Based on a, admittedly, quick internet search the only information available on the Hirai family appears to come from DGS. Although they are primarily credited by DGS as being the last students of Reiki founder Usui sensei. Despite some peoples view, reiki is not related to Jinshin jyutsu. According to DGS the Hirai family passed their 'family art', sometimes referred to as "Hirai shiki Jin Shin Ho" to Hidetoshi Mitsuoka who taught sifu Matsuo. Though there appears to be two lineages here, one the reiki lineage from Usui and the jinshin one. Sifu Matuso often teaches the jinshin calling it "Energy healing mudras of the Hirai Family." So while Usui is mentioned regarding the reiki lineage, I so far have not seen or heard ANY mention of Jiro Murai the founder and developer of Jinshin juytsu. Maybe the references do exist, I honestly don't know. But google certainly produces no hits when Sifu Matsuo's name and Murai sensei's name are entered? Given what is taught by Sifu Matsuo we know it IS the same art, and not simply a separate or different Japanese tradition with the same name. Now, the thing that strike me as strange is simply that if this lineage of jinshin came to the US via the Hirai family and has nothing to do with Mary Burmeister. Why is it that the English language descriptions, and terms ARE Mary Burmeister's? Given that many of these things are not simply direct translations of the Japanese. Much of this way of explaining or teaching Jinshin was developed BY Mary for teaching Americans in the format she was teaching in. In Japan it was not taught in this 'Self-help' way. I would have expected at least some difference, as is usual in 'sister' lineages coming down through different teachers. Instead we have Sifu Matsuo going through simple basics from photocopied notes and using Mary's language to describe what jinshin is and what he is doing I cannot comment on the other Jinshin DVD's that are sold by DGS but $108 for a DVD that simply takes you through only part of what is included in the publically available Jinshin Jyutsu books is pretty steep by any standards. So when others on here have commented; I completely agree! Get Alice's book, then maybe the handbooks, or search out jinshin jysutu teachers near you. Why? Because the knowledge on the DGS dvd does not teach anything extra that you cannot get from these cheaper sources. The DVD I watched simply goes through the 8 mudra shown in Alice's book (though either I drifted or Sifu Matsuo misses one?), and shows a couple of the ways of balances out the energy flows. So I think Jinshin Jyutsu is a great method and approach to Gently working on yourself, and others. I would simply go elsewhere to learn it. Hirai Family Healing mudras? I'm not convinced from what I've seen. Best, P.S. It should be noted that this Jinshin dvd is the one that appears combined in a 3 in 1 dvd, and so if you purchase it for the other dvds it is fair enough.

Which line of Yin style bagua? Is it the He Jinbao line coming from Dr Xie? If so look the line up and see what kind of rep they have, not too hard to do. There are vids of both He and Dr Xie so you can see what they are/were like. But yes they are the 'real deal'. I don't know the martial side of YSB but the daoyin and medicine is second to none. Recommended protocols? The thing is, when you don't know what you are looking for to know whether they have it. This is always the trouble when starting out, not just for you but for anyone. So all you can do is see if the training is enjoyable, and appears to be beneficial to you right now. There are great fighters teaching in the martial arts, that simply won't teach you the fundamentals YOU or I may need to learn. There are also great teachers of, lets just call it 'bodywork', that will give you a great foundation, but simply do not have the fighter mentality. Which is more important to you? The easiest advice to take with you, is to look at the students as much as the teacher. Are THEY actually learning what the teacher is giving? are THEY getting anywhere? And are they having fun? I mean in this day and age, it should be enjoyable. You aren't training to prevent your village being destroyed and your wife raped and killed. Now this rule isn't fool proof, sometimes the teacher simply has lazy students If you want proper martial training, learning to be able to fight, in London, and are particularly interested in bagua. The three I know of to recommend, from people I know who either train there or highly recommend them (in no particular order) are; Gao style bagua http://www.palmchange.com/ Sun style bagua http://www.paulwhitrod.com/combat/category/hsingyi Yin style bagua http://www.bagua-zhang.info/ Just be prepared to WORK Taiji? yang style recommended?? Ok BIG question, recommended for what exactly? recommended for whom exactly? Tools in a tool box. There are reasons to pursue Chen, Wu, or Yang as a method of taijiquan. Then there are the branches within each that specialise or vary, and then there is weeding out competent teachers of the branch and what they are passing on. So no quick or easy answer. And be wary of people who sound like their understanding of CMA comes from wuxia novels. There is a real esoteric side, though its rarer than dragons claws, and most who feel that way are deluded and often fall short when faced with reality. Sad but true, caveat emptor. Good luck in your search,

I hope so. All the best in your endeavors, is that ok and preferable? My last wishing you well was taken as an insult Edit: I'm glad people liked my post, but in all honesty it didn't feel right. So for those that read it, you've read it.

You might think/feel this way. Or might have just woken up from doing so? However I would suggest it is also a trap to assume everyone else thinks/feels the same way as you do. I do not have this "definition" of friendship, though I probably did many years ago. I honestly can't remember. But then I have few friends! so who am I to talk hahaha Good luck to you in your awakening Best,

Hi Ronko You have accidentally taken what I said and added extra to it I didn't say GoT is a neigong not a qigong. Technically anything is a 'qigong'. So it is true that ALL practices are qigong, including neigong. But not ALL qigong is neigong. Make sense? So GoT is a qigong, as in an 'energy' practice. But no I won't be approaching it like that from now on, but that has nothing to do with it being neigong. Confused? Good. They are just terms, and they don't matter. Take my comment in my other post simply as an example of different understandings and ways of seeing the practices that will always emerge and present themselves. They can be great, but again if we indulge in them, make them into what the thing is really all about, then we again miss the bigger picture. It doesn't matter what MY insight was, that has shifted my practice. What matters is that YOU practice, your listening, and your neigong and allow the unfolding that will take place. As I said "It is a spiral between absorbing what your teacher explains and doing the practice." So I have answered, but not straight forwardly. Getting some Zen mojo coming through haha Best,

Be sensible about this, it's a serious subject. If you thought or had reason to beleive you had cancer who's advice would you listen to about a sensible course of action? Think about it. Getting moral and group support from people who can appreciate a problem is one thing. Getting informed and educated opinion about something like emerging qi psychosis from a longstanding and well regarded healer is something entirely different. I would PM Ya Mu, Hundun, or Shaktimamma. They all have quite different backgrounds, and whether they can help directly or will advise you of someone who can, they are all people with the experience and background to have advice worth listening to. Most acupuncturists or TCM practitioners wouldn't know what to do with qi psychosis. There are others on the board who can probably help, but I either don't know them, or can't think of them right this second. Best,

It can be hard. I was taught by a teacher to approach it as though you are an anthropologist and simply observing the behaviours of a culture or people you are not from. This can help. Letting go of judgements is another part of it. Realising what these judgements are. Why do these judgements arise? In part we have energetic filters that we perceive everything through. The gates behind the eyes in particular hold many patterns and images, some positive and others negative. If something or someone fits a similar pattern then it can trigger a reaction based not on the reality in front of you but based on those energetic patterns that you view it from. Work on releasing the energy of the eyes, around the eyes, and behind the eyes, and the head in general. Sink it and let it go. This can help too. I don't think this means you aim to go all 'zen' monk and serene with no judgements on peoples bad behaviours. It means you've learned to drop your filters from the equation, so you percieve more clearly, so you KNOW when judgements arise because of their behaviour and not from your own filtered perception and interpretation of it. Hope that helps,

Good point, I think this is important to remember too why torture yourself when you can have fun Best,

You are best off asking Ya Mu directly. There is a reason he likes people to practice for an hour. He has mentioned a "saturation"* point which tends to hit between 40-60 minutes. However, any practice is better than no practice. And 'micro' prcatice is a VERY good way of building up towards 24/7. GoT IS S-M neigong, and practicing it will give many benefits. Ya Mu has explained the basic differences between standing and sitting S-M neigong (standing the body can move more - sitting you can go deeper), and I am going to take the liberty and extrapolate that further. GoT is 'moving' S-M neigong, so it is harder to go 'deep' in the S-M, but the patterns are from S-M, so..... Many aspects of struggling with sitting were addressed by Ya Mu in Finland, more than I've heard before, but simply because of the questions that came up. All VERY good advice. And one of the things I was reminded of is that it shouldn't really be an effort or chore! I have chronic pain so trust me I appreciate difficulties with sitting! You can do S-M neigong sitting, standing, moving (ala GoT or walking qigong), even lying down (though the movement restrictions are not ideal) you can do it in nature with trees etc. So you can play with what is most comfortable and easiest and work on the energy body that way. Then simply see how the changes work for you. Hope this helps, * Please note, that as I recall Ya Mu explained that "saturation" point was not a great way to put into words what he was explaining. So bear that in mind

Most people have more trauma than they realise. These practices will bring stuff to the surface as it is processed. I don't think all trauma has to be a long process, think gordian knot. But it depends on the tools used to address it. MUCH trauma can be released without you even being aware of it, and this is what in my opinion the more natural cultivation paths/methods allow once the process is begun. No to Buddhism. I think you're thinking along different lines to my comment. I'm not talking about distancing anything or even realisation of anything. "the Teacher projects certain vibrational energy to the student... After that, the student continues to practice. As long as they go home and practice, this continues to build and can be quite powerful. If they go home and think about it without the practice then they have waisted my time and theirs." You guys need to learn to use the search function, it aint all that hard Ya Mu says an hour a day. There are other posts on this, on the forum. Source, always go back to source to qualify your understanding. In S-M neigong that is Ya Mu. Anything else always grab the salt shaker Best,

Partly. I still carry a lot of resistance to who I am. The shells are cracking slowly It has also partly just been having long enough to see beyond the terms and explanations, particulalry the ones that have been close to previous training and experience. For one I will no longer be practicing GoT as qigong. Best,

You are most certainly NOT a fool! Nor is anyone else that sees such parallels or similarities. They exist. My feeling is that we should always keep BOTH any similarities we find/see AND the differences in mind. While also being OPEN to knowing that our perception of these similarities will continue to evolve and change. This has been my experience, and continues to be so. This is why I generally stopped posting on S-M, I'm too green and have only felt/seen/experienced a small part it. So also take all of my posts on S-M in this thread and elsewhere with that in mind. Your body shaking is releasing something, nothing wrong with being pleased with that But if you indulge in it or focus on it, or expect it, it can prevent you simply Being present to what is happening next practice. I have chronic pain, and dropping expectation is hard for me, so I struggle with this too haha! Yeah, re-read the book. Re-watch the dvd's, and so on. All the best,

Sorry, got a nudge so I'm posting again After my first workshop Kempomaster told me he always re-reads Ya Mu's book after a workshop. He nearly always finds something he'd missed previously or something that makes far more sense. Doc Morris wrote Pathnotes to be read this way, mirroring the old scrolls. It is a worthwhile practice. It is a spiral between absorbing what your teacher explains and doing the practice. If we want to follow S-M neigong then I think we should listen and bear in mind what Ya Mu chooses to explain about the practice and lineage. Everyone who's met him knows he expects you not to simply beleive him but to allow yourself to prove what it is or is not through direct experience of it over time. So, when it comes to zifagong (spontaneous qigong) or 'shaking' practices, I feel we should appreciate what Ya Mu has to say about its relationship to Stillness-Movement. And maybe consider that what we 'see' is not what he 'sees', and then ponder on that! Best,

I prefer somatic theories rather than straight out psychology ones. I also do not feel the original neurosis needs to be addressed. What does need to be addressed is the attachment and the embedded patterns associated with the neurosis. You can spend years going round and round trying to re-integrate perceived neurotic issues and still not get anywhere, though you'll have learned a lot about yourself most likely. Regarding body-mind medicine, I don't think it has to be one or the other though. I think practically a somatic method is best, but addressing the mental issues that arise is also best done with support and care. Regarding S-M neigong, which is NOT body-mind medicine, I can only paraphrase Ya Mu. You have to go above and beyond the level of the issue to fully address it. The efficacy of S-M in this way would be to not address either the physically stuck energetic patterns nor the mental/emotional ones, but to work above that and allow the effects to ripple downwards. I can only assume the same is considered in both the self and patient healing aspects of the system. It has taken me a LONG time to even begin to fully appreciate what is happening behind the curtain, despite Ya Mu openly pointing this out. It is so much easier to pay attention to the more obvious aspects I've experienced. Best,

TRE does not require you to focus on anything beforehand. It is based out of an understanding of the trapped storage of nervous system energy (the firing of the flight/fight/freeze response [and others]) throughout the organism, which happens through repression of those responses. and how triggering neurogenic tremors helps the body to release this storage of nervous energy. As the sensory-motor system is engaged the habitual firing of these and other reflexes/responses in the body are reset. The actual rhythmical and consistent firing of the muscles during the tremors also resets the habitual lengths and muscle tone, and can unwind distorted fascia (connective tissue). It focus upon the poas and the pelvic/lower abdominal area simply because this allows the tremors to resonate out to the whole body the easiest. Triggering the neurogenic tremors in the hand or arm for example is just as easy, but much harder to then allow that to spread through out the body. It is based out of somatic trauma theory. And is a body-mind medicine, in that it heals and release mental emotional issues by addressing the body. PTSD is a tricky subject and is still not fully understood or addressed by any discipline. Stress inoculation is also not an indicator for whether an individual will experience PTSD. One of the worst aspects of PTSD is the separation and loss of an underlying belief system that makes sense of the world. When this belief system is shattered or forcibly removed it has a very harsh impact upon a person. It can take a VERY long time for a new belief system to develop, and some never fully recover. This is one of the aspects that spontaneous or a very violent Kundalini awakening can trigger in people leading to real kundalini syndrome or qigong psychosis. Best,

Mmm.. I've stopped talking about Stillness-Movement neigong, mainly because I know that I don't know, which is fine and actually preferable in many ways. When I was first introduced to the system, via a friend and Ya Mu's book, I 'saw' parallels with other practices I knew (Japanese, Chinese and Western). Bercelli's work was one of them. Then I met Ya Mu and experienced S-M neigong and realised my presumptions about those similarities were not quite what I had thought they were. As I continued to practice, and to listen to others experiences, I started again to 'see' parallels of S-M neigong elsewhere, based upon my newer and unfolding perspective. The more time I've spent with Ya Mu the more I've realised that actually, these parallels are also not quite what I thought they once were. I am NOT posting this to say you are wrong, or wrong to see these parallels. Far from it. However I urge you to remain open to changes and shifts in perspective. I am also going to share something that I beleive has already been posted on this forum elsewhere, and I think is important to bear in mind. S-M neigong is NOT a qigong method. It IS a Lineage. There is a big difference, but you have to read between the lines of that statement. This is why if you look at another qigong is it S-M neigong? "the Teacher projects certain vibrational energy to the student which initiates movement....It would take much longer if a person just started practicing.... Initially, the student would only be doing stillness and not have the higher vibrational movement...The Higher Level Stillness-Movement uses higher-level vibrational patterns and looks nothing like what I see some of you folks describing as spontaneous qigong. Sometimes, initially, when a student thinks they are supposed to be doing something we see that sort of jerking around movement and indeed there can be some release. But the true energy of the Stillness-Movement is usually much deeper spirals with vibrational shifts. The method I teach strictly depends on energy body vibrational changes made by the Teacher's energy projection.." [bold and underlining for emphasis is mine and NOT Ya Mu's] I quote Ya Mu simply because he is the best person to describe his system and the how or why of it [all of the above is freely available on TTB's]. It is not that muscles don't fire or twitch and jump during S-M neigong, but S-M neigong is NOT about that, as in that is not its aim or goal. It can simply be ONE of the things that may happen for SOME people. There is also a difference in trigger mechanism. The Trauma release work uses stress positions to trigger a neurological response. S-M neigong is a build up of a the Qi in the dantian as per Ya Mu's description above. "I have said before that after prolonged practice...there will be vibrations in the body, but whether this happens or not or how frequently depends on the ...person involved. Some think [the practice] does not work because they experience no vibrations....Some experience vibrations...Some have no vibrations at all, even though they have already experienced changes...Thus it appears that there is no [direct] co-relationship between vibrations and effect." One of Master Wang's teachers on the practice of jinggong (stillness). Raimonio, please know that this post is not simply a response to your thread. I am only bothering to post my thoughts at all, because of the sheer number of pm's, e-mails and in person conversations I have had with Bum's about all varieties of shaking practices and spontaneous qigongs they see as being the same as S-M neigong (Which is why I mention the lineage above, which is what makes S-M neigong S-M neigong). Yet when I spoke with three of Ya Mu's senior students the descriptions of their practice I got bears a striking and marked contrast from that of many of the Bum's I've met who have gone to a workshop. I am still puzzled by this, but given the number of times a parallel has been made between shaking practices and spontaneous qigong's that involve or display large shaking movements I wonder about the power of suggestion? "Sometimes, initially, when a student thinks they are supposed to be doing something we see that sort of jerking around movement and indeed there can be some release." It doesn't mean such things are not part of what CAN happen in S-M neigong, it is just putting the reactions in perspective. And even if such things do happen in practice is doesn't mean they are always meant to or they are an inherent part of it. So my question [asked rhetorically and aimed at no one particular person] is this, are you genuinely sitting and allowing yourself to simply 'Be'? or are you indulging in what you think/feel should/could be happening? Tough one to answer! Best,

Google was invented for a reason, at least go to the horses mouth http://www.naturalchimovement.com/Introduction/What_Is_NCM.php

Thanks to Ya Mu and Kempomaster for travelling over the big pond, to Sonhoffman for organising and for everyone for attending so the event could happen. Tooo much indulgence. And stress. Stress and indulgence blargh! STAY in the QI! I always learn a lot, but that was my biggest lesson. Apart from moving cities, starting a business, visiting more countries this year than I have in the last 15, 4 weddings [no funerals], I have also had much to study with medical qigong and chinese medicine! It's been a busy year so far. Too much eating and not enough digestion time makes for sick boy Time to re-evaluate what is important and seek better balance! I love Ya Mu and Kempomaster, their wisdom and patience and humanity. Best,

I actually kinda agree. The western systems have always felt 'wrong' for me, and yet the heart of the esoteric schools teachings are essentially the same. It is only after immersion in the Eastern traditions that I can re-conceptualise the Western schools past the 'creepiness' and appreciate them, but I still don't want to go there. Best,

I don't have time right now to address your points fully. Yes they would, but it's unfair to tar everyone with the same brush no? Look at some of any spiritual system. I know what I know, to many its a lot, to others its very little. The gods are real. They stand outside of us. If they come calling you will know. If you meet one, or several it is your choice whether you worship them, befriend them, ignore them and so on. Bill Bodri writes that as you progress in the path of cultivation you will experience certain things, and the local culture and its symbology/mythology will colour your experience. I disagree, Doc Morris' view is what I have experienced. Which is more, having your blood come from one culture, practicing methods of a second culture, and yet have deity or god experiences associated with yet a third! Especially when it is gods/deities you are not aware of. Connection to the divine (whatever form it takes) is the real essence of spirituality. Those connected to their gods in a genuine way are surely following a more spiritual path than any tradition that has lost this connection and relies solely on the old words written by men of the past. As quoted in the Zhuang Zi, such writings are worth squat (see below). While fiction, and unlike say Alan Moore, Gaiman is not a 'practitioner', I have always found his novel American Gods to sing quite true on such matters. Yes I do! I'm English, I've lived in various old places in England and Scotland and I agree with Hutton, that the belief system of Britain for centuries while outwardly and nominally being 'Christian' was always a blend of local "pagan"/"heathen" aspects and Christianity. With that blend varying somewhat depending upon location. A conquered people will always be written in history as being of the religion of the state. It does not however say anything of the beleifs of actual people. The same is true when anthropologists visit indigenous peoples "known" to have 'shamans' [still hate that term], only to find that the average person doesn't have half the interest or belief in "shamanic" things as their pre-conceptions have led them to belief. But that is getting off the point a little Anyway, I'm away for a week or so, so if I don't reply that is why. Best, P.S. 桓公讀書於堂上，輪扁斲輪於堂下，釋椎鑿而上，問桓公曰：「敢問公之所讀者何言邪？」公曰：「聖人 之言也。」曰：「聖人在乎？」公曰：「已死矣。」曰：「然則君之所讀者，古人之糟魄已夫！」桓公曰：「寡人讀書，輪人安得議乎！有說則可，無說則死。」輪 扁曰：「臣也，以臣之事觀之。斲輪，徐則甘而不固，疾則苦而不入。不徐不疾，得之於手而應於心，口不能言，有數存焉於其間。臣不能以喻臣之子，臣之子亦不 能受之於臣，是以行年七十而老斲輪。古之人與其不可傳也死矣，然則君之所讀者，古人之糟魄已矣。 Duke Huan, seated above in his hall, was (once) reading a book, and the wheelwright Bian was making a wheel below it. Laying aside his hammer and chisel, Bian went up the steps, and said, 'I venture to ask your Grace what words you are reading?' The duke said, 'The words of the sages.' 'Are those sages alive?' Bian continued. 'They are dead,' was the reply. 'Then,' said the other, 'what you, my Ruler, are reading are only the dregs and sediments of those old men.' The duke said, 'How should you, a wheelwright, have anything to say about the book which I am reading? If you can explain yourself, very well; if you cannot, you shall, die!' The wheelwright said, 'Your servant will look at the thing from the point of view of his own art. In making a wheel, if I proceed gently, that is pleasant enough, but the workmanship is not strong; if I proceed violently, that is toilsome and the joinings do not fit. If the movements of my hand are neither (too) gentle nor (too) violent, the idea in my mind is realised. But I cannot tell (how to do this) by word of mouth; there is a knack in it. I cannot teach the knack to my son, nor can my son learn it from me. Thus it is that I am in my seventieth year, and am (still) making wheels in my old age. But these ancients, and what it was not possible for them to convey, are dead and gone: so then what you, my Ruler, are reading is but their dregs and sediments!'

The Otz Chim is a genuine and real path, I found this out to be true years after being drawn elsewhere. However, cheesy but true, the map is not the territory but the territory certainly exists! There are simpler more pragmatic maps in my limited experience. [Edited addition] I always liked this statement from Doc; "The... techniques I've described are virtually the same in Taoism, Kriya yoga, Kokoro, Kabbalah, Esoteric Christianity, and Sufism. Manifestation may differ according to the practice, but the true practice has to do with going within and working on yourself and your breath following the light-not drawing pentagrams on the floor that represent internal states and standing in them while bellowing in languages you don't understand." I think it is worth keeping in mind regardless of the path/system being followed. Don't take this the wrong way, I am NOT posting this as a crtitique or criticism of ANY system or anyone. I just think it is a healthy reminder of a good perspective in approaching such subjects. Many I've known personally simply became lost in the maze of Western occultism and its maps, symbols etc, same happens in Daoism, and even Chinese medicine! All the best,