寒月 Hanyue

Chia's Iron Shirt and I liq chuan are not related and nothing alike in practice, just to be clear. Best,

Simple movements that gently press into and stimulate the elasticity around the circumference of the diaphragm will always help. But learning to be present to and to feel the circumference of the diaphragm, breathing gently into it and feeling and encouraging the elasticity that way is probably more helpful. Anything so stubborn as to not be helped, you are better off getting someone who knows what they are doing to work on releasing what is stuck in the layers of tissue. Rather than prod around yourself. Best,

The simple answer to Keeney's "Shaking medicine" = Ya Mu's "Stillness-Movement" is no. The experience of SM neigong is unique to YOU, and where YOU are when you engage with it. Expectation and presumption about what it is, what it does etc can often get in the way of that. This is why Ya Mu does not have a bullet point explanation of it. And if my teacher says it can't be put into words, who am I to do so? It is easier to point out misunderstanding regarding what it is not. But then when this is done, it can be assumed this is simply tribalism or marketting So you have a question to ask. If I ask a question about SM neigong, who am I going to believe? Words easily cause confusion. Ya Mu doesn't ask anyone to believe him, he asks that you experience and see for yourself and go from there whatever you find. Seek your own understanding and answers. RV knows whereof she speaks. This is the only post of mine that I think you could have gotten the impression that, It may simply be a word thing, but 'incorporate' sounds intentional and an aim. What I am talking about is that just because some have been 'shaken' in SM neigong, people see that or read that description and assume it is about shaking, or you are meant to shake, or that it is the same as "shaking medicine". Additionally my point is what is causing the expression? So many expressions can occur. So I will repeat Ya Mu's advice; Yes there are zifagong's where you learn to induce spontaneous movement and or 'shaking'. There are also 'shaking' qigong's where you simply "shake" the soft tissue around the bones, either whole bodily or limbs. The latter is a conscious intended movement although you can find a rhythm and momentum within that. They are not secret qigongs. No I don't. I have varying experience with different practices. After being introduced to one, and then being inspired by talking with others about what they do I sought other methods out. But be aware that they have their own reasons and purposes. For example one of the shaking qigong's I know ties directly into bodywork applications, that is its purpose. If I practice it am I trying to get more bang for my buck out of SM neigong? No it is done for its own sake and has nothing to do with it. I may regret this, but one of my early experiences with SM neigong was of my awareness and mind dropping into and through my dantian, it then expanded into the stars while I remained aware of my dantian as a star that felt like an anchor between the heavens and where my body was. It was how I know I could come back. Now, it only happened once. It provided several insights into various things. But to take this and think or state that this is what SM neigong 'is' or 'does' would not do me or anyone else any favours. Some appear to keep focussing on the idea of moving spontaneously or whatever else because it is called Stillness-Movement. What about all the other phenomena, expressions, and experiences that occur?? SM neigong cannot be summed up or explained as ......... fill in the blank. The only reason I contributed to this thread is BECAUSE I have done various practices that people keep equating with SM neigong. Bottom line, the assumption they are the same will get in the way. I have had to drop and let go of many of these, and listen to Ya Mu to realise and see through my expectations. I am still doing this. Best,

Sorry for the confusion As Ya Mu has said jingdonggong or jingdong qigong is the Chinese name. No secrets, it is in his book and has been mentioned numerous times on this forum, again apologies for not clarifying. As for 'zifa'自发, it literally means 'self release' and is usually translated as 'spontaneous'. There are many qigong methods that use the term zifa in the title. Most of the ones I have personally seen or been taught were derived from Shaolin and were Buddhist. I am not far enough along to comment on the end of the road, my comments are based upon how they are taught, the stated aims/purposes of the practices, how those involved actually engage with and make use of the methods, as well as what they get out of them over time. The zifagong's I've been taught either used muscular fatigue to initiate skeletal vibrations (basically the same way Berceli does in his TRE), or falling into natural swaying easy rhythmical movement, or a combination thereof. Sometimes the teacher would add some qi to the experience. They all emphasised and sought shaking, and spontaneous movement. You could call this dongjinggong maybe but many do not go deep and get caught with trying to shake etc thinking that is the point. Ulises; I'm glad you're enjoying your practices. You can say all sword methods are swordsmanship so they're all the same. Yet practically and if you engage with a true method you will find they are not. Specifics exist for good reason. Being able to scale up and see the big picture as well as scale down and see the small are both equally important. I was first introduced to 'spontaneous' Japanese methods, and have been taught various methods from Japan, China, Russia, and derived from European Shamanism. Some were more contemporary others older. However the lineage (not method, lineage) of stillness-movement has not been the same in my experience. It is not about creating barriers, you simply cannot learn what stillness-movement has to offer from Keeney. I'm sure there are things that would go the other way too! It's not a judgement of better or worse. Best,

This is not easy to answer in a sense. Let me put it this way; There are practices where shaking and spontaneous movement is an inherent part of the practice and sought when practicing. There are practices that may result in vibration and movement but do not seek it. Ponder this difference. Many of the 'zifa' qigong practices simply do NOT tend to go as deep as jingdonggong. They can do, and for some who really plunge their depths certainly do. But many get sidetracked by the 'idea' of shaking and moving themselves about. Additionally actual 'zifa' is NOT simply 'unchoreographed' "improvised" movement which can feel nice and wonderful but is quite quite different. I think it is all too easy to 'see' "shaking", and "spontaneous" movement and see the same thing going on. I am not talking systems or methods here, I am talking internal experience. Not being caught up with names, terms etc what is actually going on? what is the aim/point of the practice? how are the vibrations, shaking occuring? Additionally I would ask this of yourself; What is it that I am not getting, or feel is missing in what I am currently doing that has me looking at other methods? It doesn't matter if something has been the holy grail for plenty of others, it might not be for you. To blindly accept is not the way. Hope that makes sense and helps Best,

Twofold strategy, 1) Go here; http://www.energyarts.com/taoist-breathing And read the available material, and download the free guide which is enough to get you started. 2) Search for Joeblast (forum member) and search their posts, good info on breathing. People who's breath teachings I have found useful; Michael Lomax (Ya Mu) Daniel Odier Dennis Lewis Namgyal Rinpoche Bruce Frantzis Best,

I think this post should be a sticky!! It is a clear, lucid and concise account and explanation of the difference of qigong and neigong. Explaining why so many arguments occur between people saying "no, thats wrong, its this....blah blah blah". Thank you All the best,

Thanks for the link to the Cohen article "Grandmaster Feng Zhi Qiang (1928- ), had the unique opportunity to learn from two well known and respected teachers of their time. One was Chen Fa Ke (1887-1957), 17th generation of Chen Style, who excelled in silk reeling chan si gong power. Chen passed on to Grandmaster Feng his vast knowledge of the Chen Style Tai Chi, Push Hands, weapons and the Tai Chi Bang(Stick). The other teacher was Hu Yao Zhen (1879-1973) who mastered the three unique Taoist skills: martial arts, medicine and qigong (energy cultivation). Hu, a famous Chinese medical practitioner, became known as the father of modern qigong in China. From Hu, Grandmaster Feng learnt Xin Yi Quan (Heart Mind Boxing), qigong and the Tai Chi Ruler skills. Grandmaster Feng is a world famous Tai Chi master. His martial skills have been tested many times. The practice of his art has not only given him good health and great power, it has also moulded his character and enabled him to follow the Tao or the Natural Way." Master Feng's taiji ruler. The motions here are done quite large. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_89rO_F4Zw Info on Master Feng's ruler and stick gong. With details on some of the stick exercises. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=We3nu1dSfE4&feature=relmfu This one explains some of the 'inner' aspects of the Master Feng's ruler exercises. Bruce Frantzis teaches 'circling hands' qigong, which is very similar to taiji ruler This is taught as a side practice when learning Bruce's Marriage of Heaven & Earth. It is seen as a simpler 'form' to get the neigong working, you are mainly working on lengthening the tissues and opening and closing. The practice eventually involves three circles and shifting weight etc. Given Bruce's studies with the late Master Feng, while I do not know the origin of this set, there appears to be clear influence. I like the circling hands practice a lot. Best, P.S. I am not saying any of the above videos are fantastic representations of the respective practices.

You're welcome. It is only my view, read and listen to Bruce's descriptions and those of his senior students. You will get subtle different flavours and nuances. Be aware that this can lead to expectation and even colour your experience in practice. Be open to what you feel at the time of practice regardless of any knowledge of a 'supposed' "process" or "method". Ok Guidelines for practicing standing qigong [pg 76 (1st ed) pg 146 (2nd ed)] 2. Dissolve from the skin inward My comment is, do not worry if you are able to feel more deeply into the body without trying at certain levels, or conversly not feel very deeply into the body at other levels. Simply aim to be able to easily feel the whole of the outside, skin etc for that level and dissolve that. If deeper in shows up in places, fine. Bruce's method starts at the skin as we can feel it easily and simply allows our awareness to melt into the body deeper and deeper over time. As a quick comparison, the old Buddhist practice is working with "atthi, mansam, taco" or "bones, flesh, skin" these three 'depths' allow everything imbetween to light up. You can work with them as a whole or with 'scanning'. All the best, and happy practice,

I've always been taught that it's best to seek an understanding through experience and practice, it makes more sense than other peoples words. Then you have something to help you understand the words when you hear them. Glad you are seeking answers in practice, I still forget sometimes hehe Practice, then re-read the relevant parts of the book again. Try to get a feel for the whole, the overall picture of the practice, and then where you are and the step you want to working with. Good question!! There are several aspects to my answer, some are from my direct experience, and so do not necesarrily comply with the process Bruce uses to teach the method. The process outlined by Bruce is not fixed in stone, in that it is a teaching tool. Something to help YOU get into working with the dissolving process. In the first ed; Stand and align yourself Scan the energy body Qi dissolving process Opening the energy gates In the second ed; Stand and align yourself Settle in Sink your qi Scan the energy body Qi outer dissolving process Opening the energy gates This process is to learn to slowly scan down the body one 'level' at a time. Consider the body to be a series of stacked levels, a vertical version of Hirst's artistic bent but without the stacks being seperated and held apart You will also be working from the outside, and over time dissolving closer and closer to the central channel. As you feel the first level, you feel for any blockages that exist there. If you find one, you allow your intent to settle onto the blockage and wait. The intent pulling the blockage into your conscious feeling-awareness will begin the process of "melting" that blockage. Once you have dissolved that blockage as much as you can, you dissolve the next blockage in that level and so on, until that level is done. You then allow the freed energy to drop into the next level and you feel that level and continue as before. The locations of the 'energy gates' are locations where you want to feel to see if the gate is stuck or open. Placing intent on these can encourage them to open if they are 'blocked' or 'stuck'. Regarding broad to focused attention. The blockages will have a sense of expansion and opening as they naturally dissolve to the edges of the energy body. As they expand allow your awareness to expand with them and become aware of the whole picture again before focussing in on the next blockage. Over time you as you go through each layer you will also be feeling deeper into the body at each layer, and the depth of the layers can become smaller and finer (Bruce talks of millimeter by millimeter). In the same way we begin with groups of vertebrae in the spinal work and then later individual ones. This is the step by step process. I will say here, that I have been informed by more than one student of Bruce's that one of his longer term students opened all the energy gates and dissolved their energy body by simply fully dissolving the gates and energy of their head. Feeling the whole body before doing this process, as well as afterwards will improve the efficacy of the step by step process. Additionally, the energy body has this downwards 'waterfall' flow to it. It is constant. This means the whole energy body has a sense of downwards movement and tapping into and feeling that is different than moving your awareness around on a layer releasing blockages and then moving down a layer. Simply because while you have so much intent on one level, or one blockage at one level, you can actually begin holding the energy up at worst and at best are not encouraging the downward release. What I mean by that is that some seem to forget that just because they are working on one part, that the rest is still dissolving and the energybody is sinking. You have just zoomed your attention in to a part of the overall picture to help it work more deeply in that area or on that blockage. I prefer to tap into the natural downward sense of the energybody as a whole and get some momentum with that. Then I may draw in part of my attention and scan finding blockages and deal with those. This involves a split awareness that is usually taught later. So don't overly complicate things. If you establish a whole-body sense and the overall downward flow first, then allow that to play in the background as you do the step by step it shouldn't be too hard. We all do this split attention thing, listening to music while reading or writing or driving etc. But you don't crash the car because you put more attention on the music! Sinking can be quick, or you can keep sinking, and sinking, and sinking, snd sinking and playing with it. I am not a medical doctor, and so will not answer anything directly relating to medical issues. What I will say is that the while the body may be drawing your attention to a place of discomfort, working directly on the area is not always the best way to release or dissolve it. Often the blockage that is holding what you can feel is elsewhere and under our radar. Work on gently dissolving the whole body from the outside downwards, work on letting go of what feels like it will release. Do what is easy first!, as these release and open, the harder blockages will already have been affected and will begin to release and open. It sounds like you may be trying to dissolve too much too quickly. First of all, you should always finish your practice feeling like you could have done more. You also always want to finish this practice at or below the feet. Work on establishing a standing practice of 20-30 minutes before working level by level or getting to working on the gates. Lightly dissolve downwards letting go and allowing the body to sink and settle and open deeper and deeper. Don't rush the scanning downwards, but don't be too slow with it either. Like moving practice you have to find the right speed for you, in that moment. The mind moves faster than qi, qi moves faster than blood and so on. Before the pressure builds to any sense of discomfort, or you get light headed you should brush down and shift to moving practice. Don't force anything. If you do get light headed, brush down from the top of the head, face, neck, torso into dantian. If you can, walk slowly and gently a little with awareness on the soles of your feet. If too light head to walk, sit down brush down again, rock the feet gently onto the balls and then let them drop onto the heel with a little bump. This is not a "how hard can I whack my heels into the floor" thing, you just want to stimulate the heels to draw your qi downwards. Once you can comfortably stand for 20-30 minutes with no issues arising and lightly dissolving, then work on going more deeply into the blockages level by level. Breathing in this zhan zhuang is natural, do not focus upon or worry about the breath in this practice. Practice the longevity breathing separately, either lying down or sitting. Hope this helps,

I'm no Xingyi expert, There are LOTS of variations upon standing postures, they all have their nuances. From a neigong pov, there is a yin/yang relationship between the way the winding/wrapping/spiralling of the arms as they grow from the back is being trained. There is also an energy aspect of yin yang. There is up/out and in/down. The holding the ball position can be trained in these two ways. Stand in the posture and play with these and you should find your arms move between the two extremes, palms facing 'in', or 'out'. Even with 'out' in the palms in posture there is more a feeling of containing inwards. While even when spirling 'in' with the palms out, there is more a feeling of holding at bay. Turning the palms facing out is (simplistically speaking) a more out and forward posture and has that feel to it, these are things you want to train in xingyi. Play and see, you'll need time. Best,

Look forward to it, All the best

I still return to it and find it helpful, because its simply about relationhip to your energy body, and energetic relationship to others, the exercises support the view of energy and relationship provided, and so it doesn't matter what cultivation you are doing. I like that about it. And its playful and not preachy Please come back on the Bums and review any other Zapchen material you find helpful. All the best,

Do you have the link? Best

While I'm glad we don't have the big critters you guys have, and encounters with such animals should always have respect and caution, my tongue was in my cheek with my reply Although looking up and seeing a bear I probably would soil myself Would love to hear more of the animal shamanic connections inherent within GoT. But given such things are individualistic as you say, I suppose there is little to say on top of what you have haha. We were joined by rabbits and squirrels today, but they have really "nasty, big, pointy teeth!" I tell you! My link All the best,

Hi RV You know I love somatics The picture was the first thing I found that roughly illustrated what I was talking about, no idea where it comes from. The sagittal plane rocking motion of the spine is the primary spinal motion that distinguishes mammals and is usually the first taught in any spinal training. I have found this to be true of many martial and healing arts. Not all, but many. Have you seen this video before?? All the best,

Not always, channel and point reactions can manifest in a myriad of ways. I had a period of feeling like someone holding a match or lighter over baihui everytime I sat. I started to expect to see a burn mark when I got up! It was VERY off putting to say the least Best,

There are 'spinal passes', 3 or 5 or however many depending on who you ask. While many consider them only to do with the spinal alignment and the movement of energy therein, it is more a area location thing. Nothing exists in a vacum in Chinese practices. Huai-jin Nan mentions feeling discomfrot and pain in the upper back and scapula region as an early indicator/reaction to cultivation practice. This area is a hard one to release the deep set tension and is a major cross-over point for the layers of fascia and muscle. Stretching won't help. Lying in 'constructive rest' and practicing still/empty meditation allowing the whole spine to dissolve and let go into the floor. Feel the muscles like warm honey melting. Allow the bones to settle and adjust. Then pay attention to the soles of your feet and the back of your knees, melt them open them, feel the weight of the leg press both into the foot and back into the hip socket. Allow the breath to be natural, feel a pooling in dantian. Normal constructive rest; This one helps open the upper back more Then sit on the edge of a chair and gentle rock the pelvis back and forth, allow the whole spine to move but focus on the pelvis, allow the movement to carry on up the spine in a gentle and relaxed manner. Then shift your awareness to the mid-spine and allow that to rock back and forth with the pelvis below and the head above following, then move your awareness up and gently and slowly rock the head back and forth allowing the whole spine to easily follow the action. It is not about size of motion as much as ease of motion and connection through the whole spine while the body continues to relax. Add this to your practice, and go gentle with the orbit work you are doing but don't stop practicing. Some systems teach similar daoyin with extra bits but the above while seemingly simple can be a deep study and should be enough to make a difference. Regarding sitting alignment, well my advice is get to know YOUR spine! Other peoples models of what alignment should be can actually damage you! I know this from first hand experience. Different methods teach different alignments due to what they want you to develop, though they of course say their weay is the 'natural one'? go figure Hope this helps, Best

Curious why you feel this would be the gallbladder channel? Not saying you are wrong, but would like to hear your reasoning if you have time. Best,

!! Man, I was startled enough looking up and seeing a horse staring at me! Bears are often linked with healing in indigenous cultures Awesome, and glad you're still around Best,

Welcome back on da Bums Shaktimama! And with a smackload of information

And listen to Joeblast, never heard better descriptions regarding physical breathing on the forum. The excessive focus on the abdominal wall movement being timed with the inhale and exhale can be just as bad for you as the "dreaded chest breathing.". Proper breathing is not about the abdomen, or any singular part of the body, but how the WHOLE repsonds to the breathing process. Best,

Simple answer, there isn't one. People argue over the bio-mechanical reasoning behind different martial styles postures. And that is something tangible. The qijingbamai (8 vessels) are largely ignored even amongst many TCM practitioners thesedays. Please be aware that Chinese medical channel theory is a multi-layered textured weave of a pattern system for understanding the body and its functions. They are meant to be understood together as a whole system. These days people bang on about the jingluo ("primary" channels) because of the predominance of acupuncture. There are different ways of stimulating the jingluo (channels) via the musculo-skeletal system, but I'm sure there will be a variety of opinions on the reasons why certain styles use certain postures and the subsequent effects. You then get into understanding why certain postures should be used by people to improve, balance, and strengthen THEIR bodies, qi and blood. One posture does not fit all. So we know martial postures have other reasons for being the way they are. Going back to the qijingbamai, simplistically they are very 'old' channels that develop early in embryology, they support the jingluo and everything else. Again simplistically to make a parrallel think of the old parts of our nervous system that underlie everything else. They go from very deep (bone marrow) and emanate outside the body. The 'routes' often depicted on the body are just a guide to the 'pathway'. The qiao mai run up along the outside (yang) and inside (yin) of the leg, the yang continues up the side behind the shoulder and goes to the head, the yin continues up the front of the body, neck and face. Qiao 跷 is sometimes translated simply as "heel", but actually means more "to raise the foot" and so some translate it as "motility", they are considered related to the ability to move and use the legs. The yang (outside) and yin (inside) qiao vessels work in harmony, if one is overactive you will have trouble in your legs, usually showing up as an inside/outside muscular imbalance potentially causing alignment issues due to the excess tension on one side. Why the poster highlights the yin qiao over anything else is beyond me, but they could simply be giving a short quick answer or wanting you to think about that part of the picture. So while in gongfu you want to train the legs correctly and well, and the qiao vessels can be understood to relate to the proper functioning of the legs. Saying your gongfu leg training or postures are about training the qiao vessels, is like saying it is about training your neuro-muscular control. It is, but it is not only that. I'd be just as if not more concerned with the jingjin (sinew channels), it is this layer that gongfu trained in specific ways connecting the body in ways unusual to other physcial disciplines. Now in Daoism they do say there is a big difference to the way you'll stand and move once the leg qimai (qiao & wei) are fully open, but the way you cultivate that would have little to do with specific postures in my opinion. I am no expert on wingchun, but I can see a large variety of reasons for that posture both from a training the tissues and joints to be springy, and a strategic perspective. Though I also feel that there are others ways to train essentially the same thing. Switching off chong mai?? Have no idea what you are talking about sorry. 50/50 usually helps train the leg-hip-spine connection, whilst 100/0 strengthens it further while improving range of motion and providing a 'buffer zone' as big as possible to allow freedom of movement, though the full range will usually not be used but kept spare. As for the comments about qihai, laogong and jianjing etc I think you'd need to ask the person who mentioned it. I don't know enough about wingchun to even bother speculating. Hope this helps,

These are from my experience, for what its worth. Bruce has altered the methodology of getting into the outer dissolving provess over the years as he teaches. Bottom line it isn't fixed in stone. Take the guidelines and practice, then go over the guidelines again, then practice more and repeat. Its all a natural process, your energy bodies want to, we need to allow them. It's different than doing something to them. 1. Whole body in one. Consider your body to be in a water barrel, unplug the bottom of the barrel and let the water drain out. The level of the water will drop evenly. Now consider the level of the water to be consistent through the body rather than just around it. Follow? So when you hit the arms you are going down through the arms and torso all at one level together, same with both legs. Scan, sink dissolve the same. You can simply get a feel for the energy body dissolving and then follow the process that outlines the specific gates. Bruce explains the difference bewteen going through the gates like this and then putting it all back together again in his book. You want to dissolve the outside and slowly work deeper over time. 2. Follow the book, be aware 1st ed is different to 2nd ed (second edition has more stages to it). You can treat it like layers. Settle in, scan, then sink. Once that is working for you, settle in, scan, sink, dissolve. 3. Eventually it is pretty much continuous. 4. Good. They are three aspects of a whole, and delineated that way to help people get into it. The scanning allows you to learn to feel and to move the intent-awareness through the bodies, sinking allows the physical and energy body to release and let go, dissolving is a three dimensional energetic expansion allowing the energy body to open and release stuck qi. 5. The dissolving process is a natural state of the energy body. You are learning to allow it to occur. The energy body has a natural 'pulse' or rhythm. Intent can help start or initiate. 6. To start just use baihui and yongquan, later feel above the head for the energetic boundary and below the feet. 7. Freeing up trapped emotions, very common. Be gentle with yourself and do not push the release and put yourself off the practice. If emotions come up, allow and try not to attach or indulge, let them be and take their course. 8. "Chen qi dantian", sink qi to dantian. Yes you can 'sink' the physcial or energetic bodies. Sinking means downwards, simply aligning with gravity and releasing superfluous tension (mush easier said than done! ). The downwards flow is the one that helps us release and let go of things. The outer dissolving is the energetic process where the energy body releases outwards to the edges of itself. By allowing the stuck body to expand and dissolve ouutwards you free up the ability to allow qi to sink downwards strongly thereby grouding yourself and so on. Hope this helps,

Just got home from visiting friends in the Irish countryside, so I can get the pictures off my phone. Was going to e-mail this to you then saw where this thread had gone. We had been in our friends garden walking about and talking, taking in the view, then decided to do Gift of the Tao, I had my eyes closed and not long after getting a bit deeper with into the energetics I opened them to discover a horse staring at me!! It had been grazing at the bottom of the field adjourning our friends garden. It stared at us for most of the practice, then started to graze and would give a loud snort every now and then. Pretty much as soon as we hit salute to Master Wang, he wandered off again. Best,