寒月 Hanyue

Moved from here, http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/23696-%26%2336798%3B%26%2325705%3B%26%2320808%3B%26%2322825%3B%26%2321151%3B-damobodhidharmas-xian-tian-gong/page__view__findpost__p__343964 I used to be a quiet person. In my late teens I found a voice and as far as those close to me would say, haven't shut up since! I am often verbose, and there are times when it can be helpful and times when it is not. I have been asked the second part of this question a lot, in pm, in e-mail, and in person. It is an interesting question. My view is my view, it is not that of my teachers, while at the same time I do not feel it is contradictory to their view either. So the first part first. From the Frantzis Energy Arts System I have been taught; Dragon & Tiger Qigong Opening the energy gates neigong Marriage of Heaven & Earth neigong Gods playing in the Clouds neigong Longevity Breathing Qigong Tuina Daoist Meditation (inner and outer dissolving) I have learned others things but not in depth. I view the system from the perspective of the 16 layers or aspects of neigong, the individual sets were formulated as a way for you to learn the 16 layers. Thesedays, many people I've met are engaged with trying to learn the sets rather then what the sets are there to teach you. I have also learned aspects that would normally be a part of 'Spiralling the energy body neigong' and 'Bend the bow neigong'. I have also learned part of the Wu style taiji from Liu, which is a much more complex way to play with all the neigong layers. As for the second part, well I used to find it easier to answer this. Thesedays I find it harder. Yuanfen played a role in my involvement with both, and my own personal 'evolution' has meant I don't see or feel contradiction (not the same as seeing where there are differences or similarities). The aims and teaching methodology is quite different. The experience of studying the one is not the same as learning the other. Yet there is a 'heart' that feels very very similar to me. So while for me I have experienced what I have, for others I think it would be quite different. It would be easier to answer specifics (save me waffling on), if you have a specific question about the two I'll give it a go answering. Just remember it is only my view and speculation Best regards,

I'm going to be a little controversial because that is the mood that takes me this morning Master Hu Yaozhen I Master Fenq Zhiqiang I Bruce Frantzis?? Master Hu was one of Master Feng's two primary teachers. Jingdonggong lies beneath the system of Hunyuan neigong that Master Feng developed, which underlies his system of xinyi hunyuan taiji (just read Master Feng explaining taiji!!!). Bruce studied chansigong, Hunyuan neigong and Chen style taiji with Master Feng not only in the eighties, but even after Liu Hongjie died Bruce went back to continue studying Hunyuan neigong and Chen taiji with Master Feng in the nineties and last year. I have had the joy of learning the Hunyuan system in Beijing, then elsewhere. Out of all the neijia, qigong, neigong I have played with over the years I found the Hunyuan system to be the closest I have done to Bruce's neigong in its flavour and approach. At the time I only knew Bruce had studied Chen style in the early eighties with Master Feng. But now I see a much deeper influence upon Bruce and how he does and teaches his neigong. Is Bruce explicitly familiar with jingdonggong?, I would say no, is he teaching it? certainly not. But does he feel a deep affinity and affection for and been deeply influenced by one of Master Hu's main and highly accomplished students, oh yes. Am I creating my own picture out of the dots I see? maybe Best,

Well on the one hand I'm glad you are at least reading material by Master Hu and trying to understand it rather than random articles by god knows who...on the other, if you know the difference as you state, why start a thread posting this; When that article is not? Are you sure you understand the difference? Do you really think reading something is going to inform you more than talking to someone who is a lineage transmitter of the system? It makes me wonder why you are so afraid of people and teachers? Don't bother answering, these are simply rhetorical questions. Wishing you happiness in your pursuit of whatever it is you are pursuing Best,

Thanks for the informative article on zifagong. It is NOT however about jingdonggong, though it refers to Master Hu and his practice in relation to the history of zifagong, as it does Sun si miao in the Tang Dynasty. I know it says that some refer to zifagong as 'jingdonggong' but it isn't the same thing. I cannot comment on waidonggong etc. The point about youfa or zifa is certainly interesting. Friend has studied jingdonggong with a lineage holder in the system, so no I'm afraid you are not talking about the same thing. If you want to know about Master Hu's jingdonggong I suggest you search out those who have had the system passed on to them. You can't understand it by reading about zifagong. Best,

Glad others in Europe are taking the initiative Should see you in September

Not fussy at all. Did you save what I wrote? I honestly can't recall what had come to mind while writing in that moment, you've made ME curious now too!!! haha. If I get the chance I'll review the method and see what comes to mind. I won't be near my copy of the book for a week or thereabouts. Best,

Touche hahaha I honestly cannot recall how I put my original comment (I have been thinking on how to answer your other question). I write in a 'stream of consciousness' way and then re-read and edit to try to make sure it makes sense, I hit 'post' rather than 'preview' and there are various reasons why I did not keep the post. As I said, I dislike the presentation of the process Yang lays out. And feel the book is overly and unnecessarily convoluted. Best,

I wrote a longer post, but it was waffle. Let me sum it up, and if you want additional explanation PM me. Breathing is breathing, breathing is great. Building and storing qi in the dantian, is building and storing qi in the dantian, which is also great. pre-heaven 'qi' is not the same thing in Daoist practice as post-heaven 'qi'. Post-heaven 'qi' is considered 'air' or 'breath'. Chen qi dantian (sink qi to dantian) therefore will mean something different depending on the practice. Chen qi dantian is usually a prerequisite but is not the same thing as 蓄 xu 'storing'. Jingdonggong (stillness-movement), as taught by Ya Mu, is the most accesible no-nonsense approach to developing and storing with the dantian I have practised. Bruce Frantzis' method I have never seen publically described and while not complex in the grand scheme of things, feels complex, at least when compared to jingdonggong. While I like the heart of Yang's "Embryonic breathing" I dislike the presentation and the explanation. I wonder what learning from him in person would be like? Hopefully far less convoluted. Best,

Huh? er ok if you say so. Go outside the scope of your explanation? I thought you wanted to 'brainstorm', surely that implies any and all understandings of the terms in an open way? you'd need to re-read what I wrote very carefully. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=179&t=23884 1) This will be broad and simple, so as not to write an essay. Most of the old texts were oral transmission that began to be written down. The teaching was heart-heart and in person over a period of time. The teaching was EMBODIED learning, texts were poetic for easy memorisation and served as pointers in recalling the different aspects taught. Of course over the centuries things changed. Collections of texts were like record keeping, but often occured for political reasons. Texts became easier to produce for one, and did become a sounding board. Often being written in response to perceived situations in the authors day. 'Books' are used for education today to ursurp the need for a knowledgeable teacher. This form of education is recent and is quite different to why and how texts have beeen and were written through the centuries in China. While memorisation of the classics, forwards and backwards, was the staple of Confucian education many simply learned to recite the words and had no concept of the meanings behind them. This understanding would come later with specific education into areas of Chinese arts. IMO there is nothing wrong with reading books or texts, look at my posts!! But understanding the place of such things in relation to the practice and transmission of things like cultivation and martial arts is important. 2) I'm sorry to hear you've never been in love and so can't relate to the analogy Have you ever experienced jing 靜 as described in Daoist texts? Can you really put that into words? Do they really convey the depth and breadth of that experience, all its layers and depths? Words, while wonderful things always fail. They should be accepted and appreciated yes, they are how we are able to communicate countries apart. But are they an attachment? 3) Your English is not so bad you did not understand what I wrote. If you are as familiar with the writings of knowledgeable people as you say, you should post what they say, and then comment. As Friend suggested. At least then people will know where you are coming from, and why, and be able to see the connection between your thoughts and those of past Masters. Whats to lose?, you may even gain m'kay.......... Best,

Yes but no-one else can read the originals so....or understand them Best,

I have met many people that are pursuing cultivation and healing. I have met few who really stood out, not just as a testament to their teacher or their lineage, but also perhaps more simply as a human being. Some manage all of the above. Posting this has been on my mind for a while. I hope I do not embarass anyone by doing so, though no actual names will be included. I met a gentleman last year (who posts here under Kempomaster), he is a senior student of a neigong teacher (who I have posted about before), and was helping them with teaching. I have also often found that even if the teacher is amiable, senior students can carry an arrogance of sorts. Not so. Open, friendly, helpful, curteous are just a few words I can use. Those of us working behind the scenes thoroughly enjoyed the company of both men for the entire time they were here. What I have found so interesting to see, is how little limelight he chases, preferring instead to only raise his head to help his teacher spread the benefits of what it has befallen on them to treasure. Why is this interesting? Simply because his own dedication to his lineage and his own developing abilities surpass many qigong teachers or even apparent "masters"! Of course this is for each to decide on their own. It seems that Daoists that actually find that qingjing 清静 (purity stillness) maintain a calm quiet. Since meeting them I have stayed in contact, recommending him and his teacher to those who ask me about qigong, sending people in need of healing in his direction, and even asking for his help with patients. I have had several people follow up with healings, even when initially skeptical, they have never been disappointed. One case which I have permission to mention here is from a Taobum. After recieving work relating to entity removal and various things done by a high level practitioner well known on this board, they found that their strong emotional problems persisted. They contacted me and I referred them. Later they let me know how it went "He took care of the problem! so a 20 year old very complex emotional, mental, spiritual issue resolved in just two sessions. a 70% improvement after the first session.". More recently my partner had a complex case with a patient and we discussed referring it. Our friend agreed to take the case and the treatments were arranged. The next time my partner saw their patient there had been dramatic change which was obvious when interacting with them (calmer, more grounded, stable etc), and certainly upon palpation. The patient remarked on noticing the difference when they looked in the mirror that morning. Now the additional thing to be said, is that both of these were distance work! The work of this gentleman continues to inspire and amaze me, I am grateful to know him. This post is simply a way to express my gratitude and to share, because although he posts on the Bum's when you post about yourself many may overlook or even ignore what you say. So this is my way of singing his praises for his efforts dedication and work, a thank you. Those on here that know him know who I am talking about, All the best, and much love and light to you P.S. Specific references have been left out simply because this is not about the method so much as the man. Though can you really separate them? not really.

There is a longer version of this biography which explains other details about who introduced Master Hu to some of his teachers, and other teachers that he had. I am not sure why this version is shorter, it could be the original and was later expanded, or it could have been edited down ? Best,

Feeding the mind/ego's need to intellectually grasp something so you can tell others about it, is not the same thing as deeply understanding something inside which does not require you to be able to verbalise it. Being in love does not compare to reading about it, and will always elude the words used to describe it, even Shakespeares. Reading knowledgable people who have written from direct experience from cultivation is always good. You should try posting some from someone sometime. Best,

I may have to send you the bill for a new keyboard all the tea I keep snorting all over it when I read stuff like this I'm going to be direct and as polite as I can be with you Chidragon. You wouldn't understand even if I took the trouble to explain it to you. I know this because I have watched you ignore ALL the attempts made by a wide spectrum of members of this forum to help you in your practice and understanding of qigong or taiji. This is of course your perogative. You have developed your own way based on years of playing with the little you were taught and from what you have read. Good on you for that time and effort, but it is what it is and isn't what it isn't, can't say more than that. While you may not be able to recognise this, others on this board do, hence their attempts to nudge you. Your cup seems quite full. Just don't be surprised when people with more experience than you pipe up to give their opinion and disagree with you. Make what up? The Chinese language? You are supplying basic definitions of Chinese words and your interpretation of how they apply to nothing in particular but things very broadly. What is there to make up? There is also little revelation in your posts. Its like saying 'yao' (waist) is referenced in the taiji classics, therefore your waist is used in taiji. It is used because it connects your pelvis to your ribcage, when one moves both move. So the waist is important..... Its true but beyond obvious. What you are ignoring is that you think by knowing the basic concept behind common words you can unpack the methods of lineages you do not know, have no experience of, and in the case of jingdonggong had not heard of until recently on this board. So please do explain it, by all means. Unless of course you mean a different jingdonggong? What dilemma? Why can't people read them? Do you think there aren't Chinese reading people on this board And I thought you said; Most people on this board can back up what they post, either with direct teaching from a decent teacher, from a repuatable source they've read, or even both. Though I have a feeling these won't be good enough somehow Anyhoo, I have practice to do. Best,

I wonder why you ask, because based on previous threads you don't want to hear what others say. Rather you want to tell them what it "really" is all about. Yes jing 靜 translates to 'tranquility' or 'stillness' in English, and as such can be applied in a variety of ways in the same way that the English terms could be. As Mike points out, specific practices will apply the term in their own way to explain certain parts of that whole. Outside specifics its like saying, what does 'red' mean in painting? Though that doesn't stop many an art critic/enthusiast Personally I found the roots of the word 靜 jing very intriguing in regards Daoist practice. Dong 動 is also interesting in its roots and relationship with jing and where is emerges. Best,

ChiDragon, Having listened to your "theories" and ideas over the last year, and having watched your videos of what you call taiji and qigong as it has grown from a few years instruction decades ago, I don't think anyone with any sense is underestimating your knowledge and experience, let alone your abilities. Especially when it comes to your comments regarding methodology, systems and lineages you have no connection with, no learning within, no experience of whatsoever. So please carry on, I'm sure Yamu would love you to explain his lineage to him Best,

Tea, nose, spray, hahha

Welcome Best,

Chidragon, This is a rather thinly veiled outdated and poor attitude to have. Every now and then you show a certain distasteful side. It does you no favours and paints you in a bad light. Have you never heard of bigotry? or prejudice? My link My link Since you feel that non-chinese can not understand any of these arts, I wonder why you are on a forum where the majority of the members are non-chinese. Or are you just trying to save us all from our deluded selves and teachers*? I hope I am wrong, but given the frequent conversations you find yourself in who knows? Best, *Despite the fact that many on here are students of and even lineage holders under Chinese teachers both in the West and the East. But then again they cross cutltural barriers and so distorted the pure teachings

What makes you say that? Is it because his friend and student Brandon Jones was a student of Mcneil's and practiced neijia under him? I know Sonnon has said Brandon was/is his neijia coach (as well as his boxing coach etc), yet Brandon has explicitly stated that the internal arts only really made sense to him after being exposed to RMAX and then viewing them through that lense (having read and viewed the RMAX interpretation of both neijia and qigong I am wholly unimpressed). I'd hardly consider that as Sonnon being a "a student of the system", or an advocate of genital weight swinging! But I'd love to hear more if you know that he actually is hahaha TACIRONPENIS could be a best seller Best,

Hi Don, hope you are well. Sorry missed this. I have Wang Lianyi's Shengong book and some articles written by a student of his. The extracts are from them, but the Shengong book is over 300! pages long. I have not had time to dive into translating it, such things are a hobby of mine and so low priority. It's just something I do when I have time. I relied on Cartmell's existing translation for much of the post. Editing it or re-translating parts and leaving the Chinese esoteric terminology in place as many on this board are already familiar with it. Best,

Thanks for the link, I did say I was trying to keep it short There are many aspects and threads that go into how and why and when Chinese medicine became TCM, but its probably best for another thread, but I don't have time at the moment Best,

Thanks for posting your info Osalina, sorry you had a rough welcome to the forum. Anyway, welcome to the madhouse Best,