寒月 Hanyue

Not to derail the thread from its OP, so I'll keep this short. TCM ("Traditional Chinese Medicine")is the Communist Governments standardisation and Western Bio-medicine hybrid Chinese Medicine.It utilises BOTH Western science and Chinese medicine, though increasingly uses A Western scientific model in its attempts to become accepted by Science. It has good points and bad points, but it really is quite a different animal to Chinese medicine, ie how and what was taught prior to 1949. Which is what Andrew is teaching. Watching Andrew teach is quite remarkable, I am amazed he doesn't do it for profit and is more intent on increasing awareness and making sure the perspective as well as the skills are not lost. There are also a few people who are beggining to teach Chinese Medicine taking a classical perspective. The medicine from within Religous circles often differed again from the mainstream medicine in China. All the best,

Thanks Bubbles appreciated your post Best,

Thank you for your kind words and contributions to the thread, Before you do 'bow out', can you say more about this? I am very interested in versions of zuowang. There seems to be quite some differences of opinion about it. So the zuowang you were taught, were the two the same, similar or different to each other? Do you see the zuowang you were taught as the same as the damo xiantiangong described by Master Wang? And that as similar to the Soto zazen you've practiced? Please, bubble away All the best,

I'm glad you don't, as I have no problem with your view either. Please do not take my posting that I disagree as me saying you should not post your views. They are most welcome, as is any following discussion regarding that difference. I am simply posting that I do not see what you do, this is a forum and I'd like to hear more from you. Otherwise I'd simply post it all on my website and leave it at that. We all have different backgrounds, different training experiences, and so see different things. This is what a forum is for sharing and discussing. So my apologies if my post came across like a put down, I wrote in haste while sorting out breakfast. As for authorised position haha I don't know about that I post my view when and or if I think it will help someone or others may find it interesting. I read many things by others that I find of interest or helpful but I know little about that area and so only lurk. As for being strongly attached, well if I am I have my reasons. Everyone has a 'model' they use to view and understand cultivation. I do use a yin-yang model, which I'll address more below. Well I hate to say it Bubbles but you are simply wrong. I don't think you understand at all and I think its about time you went and stared at another wall for 9 years.... Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm joking. All distinctions in all models are false and artificial. I completely agree. What we use to learn is not the thing we are trying to learn. Yet we often need ways of looking. There are MANY models people have used to view cultivation practices, I don't view any of them as wrong, but I do feel that our personality will draw us to the ones that make the most sense AT THAT TIME for us. This will depend on your lineages/traditions, background, culture, and experiences during practice. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything either, I present a view. I don't expect anyone to just up and accept it, though I do hope that if it makes some kind of sense to people reading that they know others view things in a similar way that they do, and it may provide a way for people to explore that view further from the sources mentioned. This is how I learn from others on this board. I also learn by reading people with views I don't get, and that sometimes helps me to better understand why I feel the way I do and not the way they do. I spent years confused because my gut felt differently to what I was being presented with. I eventually realised that there are lesser known traditions that have a view and speak of things in a way that makes sense to me. That realisation came from others I met on the net, and what they said about their experiences. So I try to give a little back. Ah, the Water method. You brought it up not me hehe. Bruce says the Chinese view Daoism as Water and Fire, or yin and yang. I have not been able to confirm as to exactly what he is referring to. I mean in regards as to which sects or schools, though he does say there are other 'water' schools other than his teachers. Writing on Daoism often uses a polarity model but not one that fits with Bruce's. Yes I do use a yin-yang model, this is based on the Shakti tradition, The Japanese tradition of Gyo, as well as a yin-yang view in Daoism that is not wholly the same as the 'water method' vs 'fire method' alluded to by Bruce. The "yin"-"yang" model is one that occurs again and again in different cultural cultivation schools, and yes I have come to see things this way. But it is not the only way I see things, it is a model I employ. One of the main differences is in the way intent is used certainly. But I think I may have confused the issue. In my understanding the distinction bewteen the one approach and the other is not about whether intent is used. It is more about the use of intent in 'yunqi' moving qi. Yes a very 'yin' way would be something like Dzogchen or vipassana. and in the theory of yin and yang everything is relative you are right. So a method that places the intent on the dantian is more yang than one that just sits in broad awareness. It is just that this is not what I was referring to, so my apologies for not writing clearly. The main distinction I make is between wuwei and yuwei, basically whether the process simply happens by itself. Where the gathering, storing, and circulation of qi happens and unfolds naturally as a result of correct cultivation. Or, whether you practice stages and direct each stage with intention to gather, store, and circulate qi. This comes through when people write stages in the practice, you do A followed by B, followed by C etc. And whenever I have read Yang Jwing-Ming that is the view I have seen in his writing. When reading the words of Master Wang Jiwu or his son Wang Lianyi however I see the view that everything happens naturally on its own as long as you cultivate using the 'correct method'. If you want the irony here, Bruce actually falls more into the 'yang' side of my model as the processes he's divised to teach Westerners utilises stages and not a 'natural' unfolding. Having practiced both schools of 'accumulation' and 'non-accumulation' I have found very real differences in the perspective and the way things are done. Thats my view from my experience, nothign more. To me it is like basketbell and football, they are both ball games but very different. Now, baseball and softball, and rounders the lines start getting blurry, they are different but yet very similar. Please, though this is my view. It has been influenced by my teachers, my practice and my research, but I am responsible for it. I am NOT trying to say it is THE only way to see things. I also want to explain that it is a yin-yang model, meaning it has a flexibility and relativity to it, although it is easiest to discuss the two polar extremes, I do not discount or ignore all the blends and mixes that occur. I would love to hear more of your thoughts regarding the xiantiangong please do not bow out of the thread. Kindest regards,

I'm afraid I disagree. I have Yang Jwing-Ming's book too. It does discuss many of the same terms and processes, but the method is different in my opinion. There are two main schools of thought concerning cultivation, these appear in Yogic, Buddhist, Daoist veins and elsewhere. They are usually viewed as the active school and the passive school, or the way of accumulation and the way of letting go. Yuwei and wuwei if you will. The methodology layed out by Yang Jwing-Ming is from the active school of accumulation, it is a process that YOU DO step by step. The xiantiangong is a methodology by which through cultivation the PROCESS DOES YOU, it happens naturally and spontaneously. There are no step 1, then step 2. The process described is similar, because it is the same Daoist process of the gathering of qi and circulation of it as the channels open. There is nothing unique about that. In fact I feel that what is explain above pretty much is the method, it is simple and effective. The one author even says the method is not complex. But we often want to make things more complex, WE want to MAKE things happen. Best,

The only one I am aware of is 'Shengong 神功' by Wang Lianyi published in 1991. Parts of the chapter dealing with Wang Jiwu's health exercises were translated and reproduced in Xingyi Neigong by Miller and Cartmell. But the xiantiangong is only mentioned in disparate parts as that is not the focus of their book. I have Wang's Shengong 神功 book but have not had the time to translate them. Best,

Hahaha! Bumblebee. The keys are not part of Pak's treatment protocol. From the little I know, generally the treatments involve preparation massage, blood letting with cupping and the 'gua sha' type Qi massage. Releasing the blood is not painful, though it can be daunting to people unfamiliar to this type of work. The videos Ed posted show this treatment well. Pak doesn't like using Glass for his treatments, he says its no good for the qi or something to that effect. Hence using Buffalo horns. I used to have a pic of me with them attached but have no idea where I saved it. The 'electric' qigong is something common in South East Asia and is used for various purposes. It uses the electricity straight out of the wall with no transformer other than Pak. Pak uses it to clear channels etc. I have no idea if he would choose to use it or not. It was not part of the treatments we organised for people when I met him. It was an 'after dinner' thing for those still around after the event and who wanted to experience it. The keys amp up the electric qigong due to their conductivity, it BURNS!!! and feels like you are being cut with a white hot blade. Well it can do, it did for me on the yin channels on the inside of my arms. Though of course it does not actually burn the flesh haha. It depends on the blockages you have When talking to some participants months after the event I found that some had proposed that Pak was generating the juice himself and the cables were for show to help people not freak out. I disagreed, I was there when Pak talked to Santi about his progress and gave him feedback to improve his training. Hope this clarifies and does not put people off. It is what it is, and its very good healing. Best,

I don't plan on adding anything to SMneigong, no need I just found your comments about the mantra specifically resonating the LDT intersting Best,

Yup. I thought it was bad enough, then he pulled out metal keys!!! ARRGGHHH!!! hehhe Best,

What blockages do you have? How do you know waiqi liaofa will be a more preferable method of treatment than herbs, tuina, or acupuncture? Or are you simply wanting to experience waiqi liaofa? Paul Whitrod is skilled and has experience with various forms of Chinese medicine. Just what treatment protocals he may choose to use on you would be upto him though. Pak Muhammad does not use waiqi liaofa. Though his healing is very good. It is, generally, a mixture of blood releasing cupping, followed by a form of qi based guasha using only his hands and fingers (not nails). On a side note. There are people presenting this type of blood releasing cupping as though it is qigong! They tend to use sleight of hand to hide hide a small needle/blade, and pretend they drew the thick plasma/stagnant blood out with their qi!! Some people will try anything Best,

PAIN Some pass out, some scream LOUDLY hehe We thought the security of our location was going to think we were killing people. We ended up with a LOT of bin bags full of blood and plasma soaked paper towels. I dread to imagine what the cleaners thought, we double bagged I just hope nothign leaked ! It can be. But the results are interesting. I believe he does. I may be wrong. But what you cannot see in the second video is what Pak is actually doing. It is my understanding there is a reason why they are holding hands and why their feet are bare This is based on receiving treatment and experiencing what Pak is doing in the second video. I could be wrong. Santi also explained to me that when Pak has been practising a lot and using the 'electric qi' method he holds a very 'electric' like qi feeling for a while afterwards though it is not as strong. Yet when he treats there would usually be no reason to hold hands. Best,

Hi Lifeforce I'm glad that the book and the exercises it contains have been so beneficial to you, this is indeed what any author/publisher can hope for. And certainly what someone like Master Wang would have wanted by developing this set! I think it's awesome you've gotten so much from it. I always figured you must like it given your avatar Your post, though seems to have a tone that implies I don't know what I'm talking about and should not have commented on the book, which puts me in a quandry as to how to reply. I in fact agree with your statement that; This is certainly how my teachers feel, and so do I, regarding these subjects. Yet to enforce such things would mean virtually none of the dicsussions (as colourful and fruitful as they always are ) on this board would ever happen. Which is a dilemma indeed. On the one hand I feel no need to 'defend' my previous post reviewing the materials in the book (it is a review of the presentation, NOT the efficacy of the contents). Yet I feel compelled to post again and perhaps explain further my intentions, which I suppose is defending it in a sense? I also feel that this reply may be taken as a rebuttal of your post and statements, which it is not. To do so would mean I disagree with you, which I don't. As a matter of fact I would love to hear more from you regarding the benefits and your thoughts regarding the practice of the set. I also want to point out that no-one is debating anything. And certainly no-one, least of all me, is debating the efficacy of Master Wang's set, which I agree would require first hand long term practice experience for an opinion. To reiterate, I am commenting in part on the presentation of the contents (by the editors/translator, who always have to decide what to include, what to cut, what to focus upon and WHO the intended market is), and primarily about some of those contents (the Daoist neigong) as I felt there may be interested parties here. Is it wrong of me to do so? The only criticism of the book I have is the observation that ALL discussions and reviews of the book I have seen over the years do not address the full spectrum of Master Wang's perspective despite this appearing within the book. This I feel is due to the presentation because of the intended audience. It is NOT a criticism of the material itself. I love the book, I love the set of exercises, and I love the explanations and descriptions of ALL of the layers involved in this set. Which is why I revived this thread. I also appreciate the different reasons why Zhang Baoyang and Wang Jinyu wanted Miller and Cartmell to focus on the aspects that they did, recommending they ignore the esoteric explanations and descriptions. And as mentioned before, I commend them for still including parts of Wang Lianyi's descriptions even though it flies in the face of their own beliefs. My pointing out that, as with all the xingyi, bagua, and taiji neigong/daoyin I have been taught, there are many layers to it is not meant as a criticism of any one of those layers. The point is to be diligent and to benefit from the practice of it, as you have done. So I hope my post didn't offend you, it is just that every time I have seen it discussed or reviewed it has always been about the 'physical' benefits of the set. Even Cartmell has equated it with the Russian mobility work of Monsieur Sonnon. Yet given the interests of many on this board I thought they would appreciate being made aware that Wang Jiwu and his son Wang Lianyi discusses and describe other aspects that can/are layered into the health exercises while not ignoring the physical components. And that might create interest where before there was none. I certainly would not presume to speak for them which is why I posted extracts from the book written by them instead. All I am doing is pointing them out and saying 'hey don't over look this they obviously thought it was important'. I will post for clarification however that the book DOES NOT contain explicit instructions on the xiantiangong practiced by Master Wang, though the writings of him and his son translated in it describe it and its relationship to the health exercises. To prevent creating confusion I will post information on the xiantiangong in a different thread. I also want to say that there is MUCH benefit to be had from the collected materials in the book regardless of interest in the practice of xingyi. Seriously improved health and physical attributes increasing with age! I'm with you, lets have at it All the best,

Thank you, I'm glad you found it interesting. I have had the book for years. I have seen much debate back and forth in reviews and on forums about its contents. It is usually ONLY viewed or discussed as a set of calisthenics, which in that light, critics often consider other sets to be preferable. Either opting for yijinjing or baduanjin derived sets, chansigong type sets, or even Western calisthenics. Recently my eyes opened to another perspective, and so went back through the book while keeping Master Wang's lineage and background in mind, and was quite surprised at what I can see. I think Master Wang developed a set of many layers, one that was applicable across a spectrum of abilities, hence it being taught to patients and xingyi students alike. Is it calisthenics, yes, but that is only one layer IMO. Best,

BUMP on an OLD thread Figured I might as well. I have no idea if those that posted in it are still around, but using their posts will be easier than writing an essay from scratch, I hope The OP. Read on. Simplest answer is BOTH. The presentation by Miller and Cartmell shows their personal biases (we all have them) and this means it is far easier to understand the 'physical' aspects of the set from the book. The problem here is twofold. As I recall, and I have not read the book cover to cover for sometime. But, I don't beleive Wang Jiwu referred to these exercises as 'xingyi neigong'. They were called 'xinyi liu he sixteen movements internal-external training'. His son Wang Lianyi does however often use the term neigong and this is where the English language book title might have come from. But, Miller and Cartmell present a definition of neigong in the book, which is; "Nei Gong--training of muscle groups, ligaments, and tendons not usually under conscious control--is the too often forgotten sister of the more familiar Chi Kung (the coordinated movement of the body with breath control in order to increase circulation to the distal points of the extremities). Nei Gong, Chi Kung, and Wai Kung (Wai Kung: the most obvious aspects of any martial art, like balance, flexibility, and coordination that allows proper gross body movement), are three aspects of martial ability and development that together form any complete martial training program." This shows what they consider neigong to be, and colours the presentation of the materials they collected and edited into the book. I am not saying that the above definition is incorrect, the above is certainly part of what is going on with martial neigong. However, Master Wang Jiwu was a Daoist who studied Daolist cultivation with a reclusive Daoist Master and his disciple. He was also a Chinese Doctor. He clearly explains that there are three aspects to his long life and health, xingyiquan, xiaotian gong (pre-heaven/birth cultivation), and the xingyi baojian gong (xingyi health practices). So you have to bear this in mind if you only look at the physcial health exercises. Additionally he also explains the importance of wai (outside/outer) and nei (inside/inner) and understanding their relationship (more on this later). It seems unfortunate that what is primarily presented in the book, and certainly all that is shown in the video, is the outer shell. It is clear reading the writings of Master Wang Jiwu and of his son Wang Lianyi that what they are referring to when mentioning 'internal cultivation' (neigong) it is not what is alluded to in Miller and Cartmell's definition above. It is even clearer when put in a wider contextual context of Wang Jiwu's teachers and peers, that his concept of 'neigong' is different to the one provided the reader. So you read the title, xingyi neigong, you are armed with a definition of what 'neigong' is, and then you read the book. I can't help but feel its simply pointed the reader in the wrong direction to much of what Master Wang Jiwu tried to transmit. The reality is that these exercises are BOTH the physcial health exercises AND internal cultivation married together. That is why they are beneficial. See above. The video is worthless and a waste of time. The video is simply meant as a visual companion to the book, it has no instructions, you can simply watch Tim Cartmell going through the exercises. But, as I understand it, he is not doing them correctly for two main reasons. One, there is no 'neigong' in them (in the sense of what Wang Jiwu refers to regarding internal cultivation), he does them simply as physcial jibengong. Two, students of Zhao Baoyang have openly critised the video and Cartmell's demonstration stating that he was never taught them fully and obviously doesn't understand them. This is not to diminish Tim Cartmell's achievements in martial arts nor his abilities. You have to understand the wider textural context and see past the surface. For one, these were taught to Master Wang's patients as soon as they were able to do them. They are not therefore simply for xingyi. I am glad of the scholarly ambitions of Miller and Cartmell. During the process of gathering, translating, and editing the materials on the set of exercises they discovered a book had previously been published in Chinese by Wang Jiwu's son. This book, entitled 神功 shengong had a chapter on the exercises. What is interesting to note is that the disciples of Master Wang Jiwu supplying the materials for the book told Miller and Cartmell not to bother with the shengong book, as the descriptions were too esoteric and used too much technical Chinese medical language. They encouraged them to use more straight forward descriptions. Thankfully Miller decided to use both. Although the vast majority of the book leads the reader to one view, it means that there is enough to see past this into Master Wang's actual legacy. It is in the words of Wang Jiwu himself, and in those of his son that the Daoist cultivation practice that is actually at the heart of these exercises is retained. Although it is not layed out 'systematically' for the reader, there is enough to have a good insight into the perspective of Master Wang and his cultivation. It is not the simple external movements of this set that matters. Though they are, for the most part, an easy set of exercises that will keep the physical body in good shape. There is more than two pages that deal with "neigong". But it is obscured in my opinion. I will lay out some extracts of it for the interested; "The xin (heart/Being) is calm, quiet as still water. One must always maintain a calm xin even when influenced by the seven emotions...The xin must remain as calm as still water....Without desire one is strong, without desire one is quiet, without desire one may return to that which is natural, without desire one returns to the original state. With a xin like still water, from the extreme stillness will spring action, from the void comes that which is alive, yin and yang in harmony and the qi flows unimpeded. With a xin like still water the qi is sufficent and the shen (spirit) full. When the qi is sufficient and the shen full, the organs function normally, the xue (blood) is nourisehd, the jingluo (channels), nerves, digestion, and circulation are all healthy and the metabolism stimulated.... I put special emphasis on the shen as the leader, ever strengthening my resolve to cultivate the shen, maintain calmness of the xin and become as pure as light without a speck of dust....this cultivation of the shen and the xin will improve the physical constitution of the people, protect their health, and contribute to a long and healthy life." "Xingyi quan, the health exercises of Xingyi quan, and the xiantian (pre-heaven) method of cultivation have been the treasures that have given me a lifetime of benefits in good health." -- Wang Jiwu 1891-1991 (written at around 100 years of age) "The history of qigong is very long and its sources varied. Buddhists, Daoists, Confucianists, Chinese medical practitioners, martial artists, and the arts of Xingyi quan, Taiji quan, Bagua zhang, and Shaolin quan all have their own theories, methods of practice and special chracteristics. Each of these methods contain deep and seemingly mysterious practices at higher levels of training...the types of qigong and methods of training have "grown as bamboo after the spring rain," with ever increasing popularity. Master Wang Jiwu has prolonged his years past his one hundreth birthday and has benefited greatly from the practice of xiantian qigong and the art of xingyi quan. Based on his life long experience, mastery of the principles and method of xingyi quan and personal insights and breakthroughs, Master Wang has taken into consideration the requirements of the prevention and curing of disease, health and life extension and has developed a method of simple exercise....although deep in principle, are easy to practice. The method utilises natural, abdominal respiration to strengthen the xiantian yuan yang qi (pre-heaven original yang qi). The result is a method which opens the channels of xue (blood) and qi, increases neili (internal power), rids one of disease and improves the health. It is important to maintain a cheerful and optimistic state of mind, releasing any concepts that are not conducive to good health, as well as controlling the 'seven emotions and six desires'. One should keep a quiet and happy xin, allowing the body to remain in its normal state. This will allow one to have a xin as calm as still water, comfortable, and concentrated so that the xin and shen unite as one. The breath should be natural and smooth with the tongue pressing against the roof of the mouth, the lips gently closed, the eyes looking 'inwards' and the ears listening to the self, the xin and qi are coordinated and the intent is on the dantian. From the extreme of stillness, movement is born. When the xin is quiet and the body relaxed, one will come to a state of 'emptiness' in which the self is forgotten. In this state, the yuan yang qi will fill the body and circulate freely of its own accord. In this state of quiet relaxation, one should practice the xingyi exercises for health..." -- Wang Lian Yi (Son of Master Wang Jiwu) excerpted from his book 'Shengong' There is more that details the relationship of the external and the internal, and it CLEARLY explains what this set of movements is really about. And it is NOT simply about physical health through regular exercise, though that will ALSO occur by practicing the set. The Holmesians of you will probably notice something I also want to add, that the book is interesting because of the different people involved in its creation. There are different opinions and views in the book, yet it is mainly presented as one vision, which is confusing. For example the sections on 'neigong' by Wang Jinyu (one of Master Wang's students) is quite different in flavour to that alluded to above. I have my speculations as to why, but who knows? Apologies for the long post. All the best,

Interesting point about using the resonance of the track regarding the LDT. I don't have or use it. But I know sound can be used to do some interesting things haha. Best,

Thank you for the generously kind words. All the best,

You are most welcome, its what forums should be for. Sharing information and points of view to help others and learn. I want to add that the development of 'Chinese' Energetic anatomy took a long time. There have been many variations and different opinions on the various qi mai (qi channel/vessel). Today we generally only think of the standardised model as it has been handed down to us. It should also be noted that the routes, conception of function, and the way they are engaged with is NOT always the same from Chinese Medicine to Daoist or Buddhist Cultivation schools, nor Qigong (here referring to modern 'qigong'). Each having their own goals and reasons for their methods, they emphasise different qimai as important or beneficial, also emphasising different functions of, different relationships between, and work differently with the qimai. As a quick example, many Chinese doctors will ascribe the appearance of certain phenomena as activity within or activation of a qi mai, that in Daoism would not be conisdered anything. This is becuase what they are looking for and what is important to them in the larger picture of that modality is different. In fact the 'qi' being referred to isn't even the same either, but thats probably the other side to this xiao zhou tian coin. This is why I use a physical analogy. Even with something more 'tangible' such as the body we can find a plethora of perspectives over what is "natural" both in function and in structure. As I learned the hard way, the body (as concept, not just as a physical thing) is a very fluid and adaptive thing and is not as fixed or rigid or 'objective' as it may first appear. If there exists this much variation with something as tangible as the physcial body, what happens when we get to the etheric or energy body? To consider it is fixed and does not respond to the way that we conceptualise and engage with it is a grave error I feel. Best,

Good Luck A summary of some of the aspects surrounding this as my two penneth; Spontaneous Vs Visualisation. Visualisation can refer to various things. And when someone says 'visualise', you don't always know what they mean so be careful. Generally it should be more than simply trying to create a picture of moving qi, which is more mental masterbation than anything else, ie it is fantasy and a mental construct. This is not always what people mean by 'visualisation'. In Chinese the term most often transalated as 'visualisation' is cunxiang 存想. 存 to exist / to deposit / to store / to keep / to survive 想 to think / to believe / to suppose / to wish / to want / to miss "Visualise" is either 想像 xiangxiang or 显像 xianxiang 想像 to imagine / to conceive of / to visualize / imaginatio 显像 to form a picture / to develop a photo / to visualize So we can at least appreciate that when the Chinese wrote cunxiang they did NOT mean to imagine or form a picture or even a mental construct, which is what often happens when we are told "to visualise" something. Spontaneous Well, there is nothing to say here. It either happens and starts or it does not. There is no explanation needed. Ultimately the 'movement' of qi, or the 'opening' of qimai is a SIDE EFFECT, not the aim of the cultivation practices (you could say this is the difference of 'cultivation' (whether Buddhist/Daoism/Yogic etc) and "Qigong"). While I do not have the references handy, what you can see through various historical texts across the board in Daoism that some adhere to the notion of spontaneous (wuwei) and others to a notion of encouraging (yuwei) the opening of qimai and the movement of qi. Given that the older texts do not delineate a 'method', you end up with two conclusions influenced by the two perspectives, though we have to be careful of retrogressively making things fit to our perspective. Either; 1) The texts do not give a method (of circulating qi) as there was none, it was spontaneous development from the actual cultivation methods used. 2) The authors only suggested the outcome, and kept the practices to themselves. This 'polarity' of perspectives (and blends of the two) are not only found in Daoism, but Yoga, Buddhism, indigenous animist practices and elsewhere. The methods of engaging with and encouraging qi movement (yunqi 運氣) is a reverse engineered process from the observation of the development that has occured in those that have attained. It is like physiotherapy if used for medical presctiptions, or going to the gym if used to try and 'develop' aspects of qigong. Yet is either physio or going to the gym the same as 'natural' development from simply using your body to its fullest? See something like MovNat as AN example. For years people became obsessed with TRAINING MUSCLES, (because muscles create movement don't they, they do don't they??) and now they have realsied this can have a negative impact upon the body, especially when one does not properly understand HOW to do this to not imbalance the system. Now there is a big movement towards TRAINING MOVEMENT, and making sure the body is not overly specialised in ONE way, but developed in 3 DIMENSIONS across various activities. So what has all this got to do with the 'river chariot'??? Training the SHC is the same as going to the gym and training muscles. Does it do something? Of course it does, but do you know what it is doing TO YOU or even WHY you are doing it? (Well its important in qigong, and if I don't open it I won't become Immortal! ) The ren and the du are only TWO of the qijing bamai, yet they have become fixated upon. There is a reason the energy body is divided in to the 12 jing and the 8 mai in the Chinese system. Engaging with and working the WHOLE system naturally and developmentally WILL ALWAYS be safer and smarter in my VERY honest opinion. I am not against yunqi, whether for the SHC or any other qi route. However I personally view such things as either a prescription for MEDICAL reasons (think physio) to bring back into balance something. Or as training to develop/strengthen something for LINEAGE/SYSTEM specific reasons (think Olympic lifting for Football players) it is done to develop INTO SOMETHING ELSE. But are you a "Football player"? Get what I mean? In qigong it is usually prescriptive, despite claims of connections to neidan or immortality from what I have seen. So if a system has it, why does it have it? What is it for? and how does it advise it to be used? and for how long? Whether it is prescriptive or method specific it is not meant to be done forever, it should be going somewhere else. I feel that for normal cultivation you should simply enagage with a genuine method that is not forceful and is natural and given that these things open naturally as A SIDE EFFECT, if you want to open them and do so without imbalancing your system simply engage with the practice and keep going. Best, Exactly...

As the thread topic says really. Having good basics and a solid foundation is something most 'understand'. And it is often said that to avoid pitfalls we should have one. But what is a good foundation? What practices/methods or developments/achievements do YOU consider to be a FOUNDATION. If you'd like to share please feel free. No rights or wrongs, people and traditions vary. I'd prefer it for people not to attack other posters suggestions, and instead start a dialogue and discuss, but hey I haven't forgotten where I am Best,

I wholeheartedly agree. Yet he put the video out himself, so people would know it wasn't just rumour. And I certainly commend him for that. yes I did. I honestly don't know much about him. It appears he is encouraged to engage with and promote Buddhism to a 'younger' audience, could be wrong. I know you're not. My comment was not meant to imply the converse. I only did so, because I happened to know it existed and it seemed relevant. I have known several people who suffered sexual abuse as minors, whether at the hands of adults within the wider family/social circle or through institutions meant to be there for their benefit. It is not only religion whether this occurs, though it seems people do get to 'hide' from repercussions more within religious institutions. Whether this is true or not who knows. Best, P.S Apologies if this posts seems at odds with where this thread has gone. I am replying to posts from pages back and have not read the more recent half of the thread.

Argue with Twinner all you want to, I honestly don't care. I have no idea of whether the problem of child abuse that exists within Catholicism is WORSE than that in Tibet Buddhism! But I don't care, the fact that EXISTS is the problem no? I think it would be a problem in ANY INSTITUTION. Listen to the words from the mouth of an officially recognised reincarnation of a Rinpoche? See my previous post; http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/23610-sexual-abuse-and-misconduct-in-buddhism/page__view__findpost__p__339130 I have no dog in this fight. I found this video several months ago when looking into the lineage of Mark Griffin (I was quite surprised at the time, given the coverage this kind of thing gets in other religions). The lad in the video is the reincarnation of one of Mark's teachers. Now whether you beleive him or not, is up to you. But to say there is no evidence to suggest this kind of behaviour exists within Buddhism is incorrect. Denial of the accusations is not that same as no one coming forward with them. Best,

Wasn't me that asked, Best

A Light Warrior's Guide To High Level Energy Healing: Medical Qigong & A Shaman's Healing Vision. Tao & Longevity: Mind-Body Transformation American Gods

Trinities abound in Daoism, and yin and yang (liang yi) is yin and yang seperated from taiji which is the state where 'harmony' can be seen. So yes, in that sense there is only yin and yang, yin and yang are not taiji. Much of the study of "yin-yang" is about the point of change, the pivot, or place of origination/birth from one into the other, this is the "third force" you are referring to. The trigrams are one aspect of understanding how yin and yang interacts with a 'pivot' or change point. Though the most common trinity in Daoism is probably Tian Di Ren He, where ren is the meeting place of, 'reconciling force' of yin and yang. Hope this helps,