寒月 Hanyue

Just the tip of the iceberg What can I say it was "shamanism" that spoke to me most about what I was experiencing, it led to my anthropology training, I've always enjoyed reading, I read a lot before Uni, learned to read much more critically and read LOTS while at Uni. Reading has to be weighed against experience, I spent years looking for a 'shamanic' teacher and turned up none, nothing genuine anyway. It was all drumming and guided meditation Figured if it was gonna happen, it would, if not it wouldn't and so left it alone. Good things come to those that wait hehe oh hang on thats the Irish drink?? Best,

Thanks Cat, this was helpful to hear but for different reasons ; )

Hahhaha I asked him Seriously though. On the one hand I don't KNOW what/who he was either way, but then neither does anyone else. It will always be speculation, same as it remains speculation that there was only one author as you mention. That said, If I want to put my academic head on. I can say no, based on the fact that strictly speaking for me a 'shaman' is a VERY SPECIFIC cultural term used specficially within a group of people that had a particular world-view and 'religious-healing' practices and practitioners, one of whom was, sometimes, referred to as a 'shaman'. Now, no matter which way you slice it they were/are not Chinese and whoever the author/s of the Dao de jing were they were not part of this ethnic group. So no he was NOT a "shaman". That said, of course these days the term is used very loosly to refer to a whole plethora of things. Hence me going to the trouble to lay out where I am coming from. I spent years studying and investigating animism and shamanism at University, though my studies are not bound solely to those years. My opinion is an informed one, it is certainly not the only one nor the last word. I have seen people write just as often the idea that Li Er was a 方士 fangshi. Which is something different to 巫 Wu. Though again I have seen BOTH terms rendered into English as 'shaman'? So I suppose its a free lunch Ultimately, depending on what YOU mean by 'shaman', and as mentioned in my last post you can basically pick your definition even in academic circles, you can argue regarding what you feel/think/believe the author/s were however you want to. It however will never be fact, only speculation same as most of "History". It is all anyone can do. See I have trouble with "Taoist shamans", and I am not levelling this specifically or only at you, it gets used alot in popular press too. But why not simply use the correct cultural,ethnic, and or historical term rather than muddying the waters? Who are you actually referring to here?(its a rhetorical question)Wu, Xi, Fangshi, Yinshi, Zhu, Daoren or yet others? There are MANY different terms. And which time period? It's not about semantics its just such a broad sweeping term that ultimately means nothing. To me its like reading 'ball game' I hope you get what I mean and take it the way I mean it too From my pov nothing is being overlooked. Cultural context IS important, hence not understanding the propensity to muddle things with a loaded term (shaman) that carry much baggage and actually cause more confusion than clarification. I personally, and it is a decision for each individual, prefer to refer to people as they would have referred to themselves. It is that simple. Who were the different groups of people? What did they identify THEMSELVES as? What was the cultural/political influence context at the time? Where do the various threads of belief systems come from? Best P.s Nobody has touched the question I posed previously; Why did the older 'shamanic' practices evolve into what can, overly simplistically, be called the hermit and mystical traditions that ultimately led to 'Daoism'? How do we get from A-B? From vibrant dancing and performances, climbing trees etc to zuowang (sitting and forgetting)? I'll throw out more; The Wu character 巫 used to refer to women. If the Dao de jing emerged from the Wu, how much 'female' influence went into Dao de jing? It is common for deities and gods across asia to receive 'gender-reassignment' depending on local politics (as well as appreciations of androgeny etc)so to speak. What about authors of "classics"? What are your opinions on the idea of an etymological root from the 'Old Persian' "maghu/magus/magi" usually rendered as magician today!?

It is tricky isn't it. Even in academic anthropological circles there is debate about where or exactly how the term 'shaman' came to be used as a classification. Also there is much varied opnion about which language and what the actual "original" (if there is such a thing) meaning of the term was. I have seen the same regarding the Chinese term 'wu'. So depending on which definition/explanation I decide to take I can make various arguments over whether or not an ancient 'shaman' from the "Siberian/Mongolian" lands or an ancient 'wu' from "China" are referring to essentially the same thing. Of course, you want to use information other than simply linguistic semantics, but then even doing that you get such variety its like a pick n mix shop. All you can do is decide for yourself given the available information you have, there is no correct or incorrect or absolute regarding this IMO. Best,

Understanding 'Shamanism' Shamans: Ronald Hutton. A must read for anyone interested in 'Shamanism' IMO. It lays out the actual origins of much of what is thrown around today as 'fact'. Agree or not, it is worth reading. http://www.amazon.com/Shamans-Siberian-Spirituality-Western-Imagination/dp/1847250270/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783611&sr=1-1 Shamans Through Time. Accounts about and by Shamans covering 500 years! http://www.amazon.com/Shamans-Through-Time-Jeremy-Narby/dp/1585423629/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783677&sr=1-1 Cultural perspectives Shamanism in Siberia: M Czaplicka. Classic and still worth reading. http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-In-Siberia-M-Czaplicka/dp/1162683651/ref=sr_1_35?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334786742&sr=1-35 Shamanism and Tantra in the Himalayas. A beautiful and very very interesting book. http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Tantra-Himalayas-Surendra-Bahadur/dp/0892819138/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1334783586&sr=8-1 Catalpa Bow: Carmen Blacker. Shugendo and 'shamanism' in Japan http://www.amazon.com/The-Catalpa-Bow-Shamanistic-Practices/dp/1873410859/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334785677&sr=1-1 Shamans & Elders: Humphrey and Onon. Accounts of genuine Mongolian belief and practice http://www.amazon.com/Shamans-Elders-Experience-Knowledge-Anthropology/dp/0198280688/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783788&sr=1-1 Shamans Healers and Medicine men: Holger Kalweit. Interesting reading. http://www.amazon.com/Shamans-Healers-Medicine-Holger-Kalweit/dp/1570627126/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783632&sr=1-2 Shamanism: Traditional and Contemporary approaches to mastery of spirits and healing: Merete Jakobsen. Explains the differences between traditional indigenous world-views and practices and those of 'Modern' shamanism. Well worth reading. http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Traditional-Contemporary-Approaches-Mastery/dp/1571811958/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334787067&sr=1-1 Nine-Worlds Seid Magic: Jenny Blain. Anthropological investigation into the Northern tradition revival. http://www.amazon.com/Nine-Worlds-Seid-Magic-Neo-Shamanism-European/dp/0415256518/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783700&sr=1-1 The Nine songs: Arthur Waley. Chinese 'shamanism' http://www.amazon.com/The-Nine-Songs-Shamanism-Ancient/dp/0872860752/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334787179&sr=1-1 Animism: Graham Harvey. The underlying beliefs and worldviews of indigenous peoples http://www.amazon.com/Animism-Respecting-Living-Graham-Harvey/dp/023113701X/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783723&sr=1-1 Shamanism a reader: edited Graham Harvey. Collection of works on shamanism http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-A-Reader-Graham-Harvey/dp/0415253292/ref=sr_1_8?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334784483&sr=1-8 Readings in Indidenous Religions: edited Graham Harvey. Collection of works on Indidenous Religions http://www.amazon.com/Readings-Indigenous-Religions-Graham-Harvey/dp/0826451012/ref=sr_1_10?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334784483&sr=1-10 Where Spirits Ride the Wind: Felicitas Goodman. Interesting research indeed http://www.amazon.com/Where-Spirits-Ride-Wind-Experiences/dp/0253205662/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783993&sr=1-1 I never liked his own 'auto'-biography, but I do like; American Shaman: Two therapists discuss shamanism and the life of Bradford Keeney (actually turns out Keeney doesn't like the term! yet still publishes books using it as a title?. http://www.amazon.com/American-Shaman-Odyssey-Healing-Traditions/dp/0415948223/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783923&sr=1-1 Slightly "pragmatic" books; Shaking Medicine: Bradford Keeney. Keeney lays out his theories and experiences, debunking previous conceptions (rightly or wrongly) of shamanism. http://www.amazon.com/Shaking-Medicine-Healing-Ecstatic-Movement/dp/1594771499/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783890&sr=1-4 Energy Break: Brad Keeney. A stripped down non-religeous presentation of Seikijutsu. http://www.amazon.com/Energy-Break-Recharge-Your-Autokinetics/dp/0307440362/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334784696&sr=1-1 Shamanism A piatku guide: Gordon MacLellan. A simple little book, first book I ever read on the subject some 20 years ago. Still love it in its simplicity, could simply be nostalgia http://www.amazon.com/Shamanism-Piatkus-Guide-Guides/dp/0749920238/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334786940&sr=1-2 Ecstatic Body Postures: Belinda Gore. A practical workbook based out of Goodman's research see above. http://www.amazon.com/Ecstatic-Body-Postures-Alternate-Workbook/dp/1879181223/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334784683&sr=1-2 Riding Windhorses: Sarangerel. Mongolian shamanism tinged with Harnerian shamanism. http://www.amazon.com/Riding-Windhorses-Journey-Mongolian-Shamanism/dp/0892818085/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334783763&sr=1-1 Galdrbok: Robert Wallis and Nathan Johnson. Used to know Nathan knowledgable and lovely chap, practical guide to modern Northen shamanism. http://www.amazon.com/Galdrbok-Practical-Heathen-Runecraft-Shamanism/dp/0954960904/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1334784599&sr=1-1 If you have ANY interest in the 'Northern Tradition' of Europe, or simply understanding world-views and culture in relation to practice, then I HIGHLY recommend that you read Bil Linzie's free e-books; http://heathengods.com/library/bil_linzie/ Why? Because Bil is a genuine practitioner whose methods more closely resemble indigenous practices than most (who instead tend more towards models of European ceremonial magick), and he has been around since it all began and has watched it evolve and change and shift. Again, agree or not, it is well worth taking the time to read to put things in perspective. There are many opinions, most are bullshit caveat emptor. Beware older 'academic' books which are often still popular there are BIG problems that may be overlooked without thorough reading into the literature (something rarely done unless for academic purposes). Read widely and with discernment. Best,

I have written briefly on this before. But can't recall which thread it was in I'll have a look. Michael is not a martial artist, in that it is not what his focus is. Though I believe he has practiced a couple, more for fun if I recall correctly. Most of his students that I know personally however are martial artists, or have an interest in martial arts. And of course the stillness-movement lineage was 'synthesised' by Master Hu a highly respected master of xinyi liuhe who also practised other Internal arts. There is a very real relationship between xinyi and jingdong gong. So while it is not something explicit, ie Michael is NOT going to teach you martial arts, there is something that if you practice the neigong alongside the practice of an internal martial art and put in 'time and effort' you may just surprise yourself But be warned you may also find you have other priorities emerge as well Best,

Interesting thread, sorry I didn't find it eariler. I'm afraid the anthropologist in me won't let me comment within clarifying a couple of things, take or leave the info thats all fine, but at least you'll know where I'm coming from Shamanism is not a belief system. It is a VERY mis-understood and, due to fascination resulting from 'pop' new-age books, overly appropriated aspect of cultures world-wide. The beliefs or world-views of numerous cultures, past and present, can more accurately be described as 'animsim' or 'animist'. This is NOT "animsim" as it was originally laid down by Tylor, which was quite derogatory and was an evolutionary and in many ways quite a colonial view which has proven quite false. Animism as a wolrd-view is a 'cybernetic', 'ecological', or 'relational' epistemology. It is not, as also once thought, "natural" or "childlike", meaning childish fantasy that adults grow out of. It is a culturally developed and learned world-view, that children are born into and pick up from their peers and elders. See the work by Irving Hallowell, Nurit-Bird David, Graham Harvey and others. Both 'shamanism' and 'animism' are Western academic creations, used to discuss the beliefs and practices of such a wide variety, that many have commented that the term 'shamanism' in particular is pretty redundant. That said, simplistically speaking we can correctly separate WORD-VIEW or belief from PRACTICE or expression of that belief. To put it another way, all shamans ARE animists, but not all animists ARE shamans. And it is the animist world-view with its perception and interaction of a vast web of inter-linked relationships that creates the situation of potentially needing a person such as a shaman. I say potentially, because not all animist world-views automatically result in the need for a 'shaman' within that culture. Even in the indigenous cultures where the term 'shaman' may be more correctly used, the shaman, who they are, and the role they play is not what many people believe today. "Shamans" are for example only ONE of several spiritual people and healers that operate within the belief system. There is also much variance amongst the different tribes. All of these specialists are believed to have some form of help from the spirit world. Some examples are; Otoshi (healers) Bariyachi (mid wives) Barishi (bone-setters) Uligershin (bard) So now I've dribbled on and probably bored you with all that, let's get back to the original question I agree, but as put above. Understanding this world-view is not easy as "the published bullshit is wide and deep". But, the central Chinese World-view remained intact for thousands of years, it changed and fluctuated through numerous permutations, but it retained a core essence. That was, until the last hundred years or so. The ROOTS maybe in long lost and forgotten animist cultures, but the TRUNK remains. We just have to look past the leaves and some of the branches. Well, how do you define philosophy? Because the term is generally understood to have meant something quite different in the West. But lets back track slightly. There was far greater cross-pollination of ideas, concepts, beliefs, and principles between ancient cultures than we are often led to believe. None existed in a vacum. There are written accounts of Viking burial procedures witnessed and recorded by Arabs. There was massive interaction between the Greeks, India, and China. Look at the Mongols. I have a resource that lays out an argument for the existence of the Bagua trigrams PRE-CHINA!, it also shows them as they existed within the older culture. So nothing is ever static and is alwyas in relationship and interacting, things change, things become dropped or lost, things are adopted etc Similarity and difference should be balanced and both appreciated. There is remarkable similarity in the belief systems of the indigenous peoples across the arctic circle from Asia to northern Europe. When paired down however many of the same motifs can even be found in, relatively more recent, religions such as Christianity. Does it mean that they are the same, in belief, and maybe more importantly in practice? No. Similarity matters, but so do the differences*. Very simplistically, and I'm sure many would not agree, when stripped down, with cultural motifs removed and only the very loose framework of cosmological and cosmogonical aspects left in tact. There are strong similarities between the Judeo-Christian world-view and that deriving from ancient China. But it is the way these are understood, engaged with, put into practice, contemplated, and expressed in daily life that changes things so dramatically. And these are of course due to the cultural setting such world-views find themselves in. In a sense it is like looking at an anatomy book, and then all the actual people in the world and how that 'anatomy' varies in expression in reality. So is China's world-view animist?, yes it is. Has it changed?, yes it has. Did it evolve in a self contained vacum?, no. The Dao de jing cannot be removed from its historical or cultural context I whole-heartedly agree (that does not mean though, that you need a Phd in Anthropology/ History/Theology to read and benefit from it). If however that means you believe it to be a manual of "shamanism" then I would dis-agree. Was the author a shaman?, no. Is it necessary to study "shamanism" to understand the Dao de jing? no. I also do not see it as an academic and intellectual philosophical treatise either. It is a commentary of embodied wisdom coming from the traditions that existed at the time that retained the essence of the older animist world-view. In Japan I was taught that if the master gives you the scroll day one you cannot read it. Because the view/perspective you will read it from will be based on your previous learning. It will, more often than not, lead you to incorrect understanding of the writings within the scroll. The secrets protect themselves. This can be taken in many many ways which I won't get into here. I mention it just to point out that whoever you are and whatever your background is, it will influence the view you have when you read old texts. You will SEE different things. As you grow, these may also change of course. I don't think it is an argument for incorrect or correct, if you are aware then it is not a problem and you know that saying IT means THIS, is kinda daft. My question to throw out is; Why did the older 'shamanic' practices evolve into what can, overly simplistically, be called the hermit and mystical traditions that ultimately led to 'Daoism'? How do we get from A-B? From vibrant dancing and performances, climbing trees etc to zuowang (sitting and forgetting)? Best, * Even Joseph Cambell tried to explain, seemingly to no avail given what people go on about when they reference him. That while his work primarily explored the similarity of cultural myths, that there were differences, that they were just as important, and shouldn't be overlooked. It's just that his work looked at the similarity.

http://tongbei.homestead.com http://tongbei.homestead.com/Principle.html http://tongbei.homestead.com/History.html http://tongbei.homestead.com/Training.html I like Tong bei quan. Same with anything though, finding a good teacher can be a pain. Best

Qigong Classes (Ignore the page watch the video) Issues surrounding terms, or preferred explanations, or any of that aside. And simply putting aside hankering for spiritual or alchemical transformation. Isn't the helping of others live a better life through what you know and can share, a wonderful thing. It can seem so small when weighed against loftier 'spiritual' goals, and yet the impact it can have can be amazing for the lives of many people. All the best,

Some of this will echo some of what has already been said. The eternal question. Exactly. Know that YOU DON'T KNOW. Start with the step in front of you, not the one half a mile or more down the road. How to discern the first step? Practice, and experimentation. Of what? Awareness of you NOW where you are. Find a teacher. You have to find someone to guide you. The level of interaction required will vary, but there is a real difference between submitting yourself to those that KNOW and from thinking you can find what you don't know without guidance. Know that "teacher" can take many forms, and that a very real part of the journey is learning to recognise that WHICH YOU need to awaken and where it is or who has it, so to speak. Why do we need guidance? Because we lie to ourselves, we need a mirror. Is this not the work itself? Awareness, presence, recognising the real and the false, discernment of who you are and where you are, and where you are going? And then go deeper. Best,

Bodri is only a messenger, much of what Bodri writes has a slant I also find unpalatable. I do not however get the same feeling from Master Nan. Read the works that were not translated or released by Bodri and you will hear how different it sounds. The Tao & Longevity book for example. I wouldn't write off Master Nan simply because of Bodri's marketting. All the best,

You're not the only one, the audio is REALLY bad and it is VERY hard to hear what is being said clearly, I feel sorry for anyone trying to translate those. Best,

The old monk through this film. I chose this scene as it shows the younger guy taking up the mantle of his teacher, and yet his teacher never directly teaches him at all. I can think of no better example than the old monk of 'doing nothing, and yet nothing is undone'. This scene shows the fruits of the seeds planted through wuwei. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5wtfNd98dc&feature=channel Illustrate tian di ren (Heaven Earth Mankind)

Cheers,

...oh hang on. I can't be bothered.

I will state upfront I have not read all the posts back and forth from Twinner and Ya Mu, I simply got bored. Sorry guys. It started out interesting, but hey...well you know. Why raise your head above the parapets? I simply won't discuss things of a personal nature. There is nothing worse than being told the way you have come to live with and perceive aspects of your life are wrong. EVERYONE's experience of pain is unique IMHO. Walk 30 years in my shoes and someone will know what I have been through, but will they be in the same place as me? See the world as I do? Feel the same about things as I do? No. And they wouldn't be wrong either. See the quote by Dr Xie in my signature. I find this interesting, I had not conceived of the differences this way before. I will ponder this. Well, you can write it any which way. But personally I feel that its semantics to argue that they are the same. Especially when you also say that sufferring results from pain. So they are the same but different eh? Just raggin on ya. Suffering does result from pain, but pain is NOT suffering. And experiencing pain does NOT mean suffering will or has to follow. It means our attachments and projections can create suffering OUT OF the pain that is experienced. Liberation from suffering does not mean liberation from pain. It is how we respond to and deal with pain that either will or will not lead into suffering. That is my understanding and so far no-one has explained anything to me that makes me feel differently about that. Again, I wholeheartedly disagree. Physical pain is very real. Emotional anguish is very real. But trying to put judgement values of worse on one or the other shows a gross over simplification and lack of experience in either IMO (apologies if this is not the case, but it is how it comes across to me). There is a very real cycle and relationship between mental emotional anguish and physical pain, a web far too intricate to unweave in any real sense. I am not trying to start a who's translation is best argument, I will however add the following. As there are many on this board who stay silent who may benefit from an expanded look at the part that has been posted. And simply saying go read the original usually fosters little. Regarding Chpt 13 of the Dao de jing. Translation is one thing, interpretation something else entirely. Both are tricky at the best of times. Each to their own, regarding reading understanding into such old texts. I always go back to source if at all possible. 寵辱若驚， 貴大患若身。 何謂寵辱若驚？ 寵為下， 得之若驚， 失之若驚， 是謂寵辱若驚。 何謂貴大患若身？ 吾所以有大患者， 為吾有身， 及吾無身， 吾有何患？ 故貴以身為天下， 若可寄天下； 愛以身為天下， 若可託天下。 Favour and disgrace are like fear, Honour and distress are like the self. What does this mean? Favour debases us, Afraid when we get it, Afraid when we lose it. The self embodies distress, No self, No distress. Respect the world as your self: The world can be your lodging. Love the world as your self: The world can be your trust. Addiss & Lombardo While no translation is perfect. This is MUCH closer and more direct translation from looking at the Chinese. As an exmaple of the whole chapter lets look at the first two lines, which always tend to set the tone for the rest of the page anyway. "Favour and disgrace are like fear, Honour and distress are like the self." Is fairly direct and virtually word for word from the Chinese. "Welcome disgrace as a pleasant surprise. Prize calamities as your own body." There does not appear to be a 'welcome' or 'prizing' of anything mentioned in the lines of the Dao de jing you are referring to. The rest of the translation by Wu is really an interpretive translation based on HIS views, and not a close translation at all. Wu was not a Daoist, he was Roman Catholic, I personally would take his translation with a large grain of salt. Every translation of this chapter is markedly different, and varies in the degree of re-interpretation by the translator. The Addis & Lombardo retains the writing style of the Chinese and sticks much closer to what is said, and contains far less 'additions' of their own. As for reading understanding from the chapter, well that is tricky. It like putting your foot in a flowing river, you never enter the same water twice. Read it again in 10 years and your understanding changes. Well now those reading this thread have the Chinese and a very close, with minimal personal addition, translation, and can come up with their own understanding. Which is best in many reagrds. I am not going to, or trying to debate the meaning of the chapter. Rather I am attempting to point out the pitfalls of translations and interpretations, and opening the referenced chapter up for wider understanding in the contaxt of the thread so far. The understanding I get from reading the Chinese is not the same as that already posted . Neither myself nor the native Chinese readers I asked, can see anything about embracing suffering or 'welcoming' anything. So I encourage those interested to engage with the text itself to find their own understanding and meaning. Best regards,

This is something I've pondered for years... (Ya Mu I hope you don't mind, because I am aware I am somewhat taking a snapshot quote that doesn't fully illustrate what you mean/know overall. So the below is more a continuation of sorts from the above if that makes sense). As I have so far come to understand it, the above is true. Yet I also feel that this can lead to the assumption that ALL pain is a 'lesson'. I think pain as well as many other things can manifest in an individuals life to nudge them, or even shove them, back onto their 'path'. That however does not mean all pain endured throughout ones life is this. It means it CAN be. Quite often it is only later in hindsight that clarity emerges. Trying to find the lesson to learn at the time can be as much of a diversion, attachment, distraction etc as anything else. Is it better to act as though your suffering or pain is a blessing in disguise? Is it preferable to allow your pain to overcome you? I think the reality is probably most often a natural movement between these two poles, though you can always aim for a golden mean approach. "An old Chinese fable" apparently. A long, long time ago, there was a kind old man who lived on the plains outside the Great Wall of China. The gentle old man had only two passions in his life: collecting rare breeds of horses, and his son, whom he loved more than anything else. The old man and his son would ride their horses every day. They would travel great distances to trade horses, meet new people, and enjoy the good fortune that life had bestowed upon them. One morning, a servant left the stable door open and one of the old man’s favorite stallions escaped. When the neighbors heard the news of the stallion’s escape, they came to comfort the old man. They told him they were sorry he had had such bad luck. But strangely enough, the gentle old man was not upset. He explained to his neighbors that losing the horse wasn’t necessarily bad luck. There was no way to predict that the horse would escape, it just happened, and now there was nothing that could be done about it. “There is no reason to be upset,” said the old man. The neighbors soon realized that there was nothing they could do to help get the horse back, and that they shouldn’t feel sad for the old man’s misfortune. One week later, the stallion came back, and he brought with him a mare. This was not just any mare, but a rare and valuable white mare. When the neighbors heard of the old man’s good luck, they quickly came to congratulate him. But again, the old man was not excited. As he had explained before, it was not necessarily good luck that had brought him this new and beautiful white horse. It just happened, and there was no reason to get excited over it. Still a bit puzzled, the neighbors left as quickly as they had come. A short time later, while his son was riding the white horse, she slipped and fell. She landed on the son’s leg, and broke his leg, so that he would always walk with a limp. Again, the neighbors came to the old man’s house to give their sympathy for the bad luck that had befallen his son. One of the neighbors suggested that the old man sell the mare before anymore bad luck could happen, and others said that he should take his revenge and kill the mare. However, the old man did neither. He explained to the neighbors that they should not feel sorrow for his son, nor anger towards the mare. It was purely an accident that could not be predicted, and there was nothing he or they could do to change it. At this point, the neighbors thought the old man was crazy and decided to leave him alone. Two years later an enemy invaded the country, and all of the old man’s neighbors were drafted to defend the country against the attack. Because the old man’s son was lame, he did not have to join in the fighting. The war was very bad, and most of the old man’s neighbors were killed, but his son was spared because he had been hurt by the white horse two years earlier. Very often, when an event takes place that everybody thinks is good luck, the end results are disastrous. In the same way, an unlucky event can bring about happiness. Therefore, you should not lose your will to continue if an unlucky event happens, nor should you be too overjoyed or feel too self-satisfied because of a lucky event, or because something that you desire comes very easily to you. The only 'healthy' pain IMO is the pain felt as trauma leaves the body. You feel pain when it enters, you feel different pain if it stays, and quite often you will feel more pain when it leaves. All to differing degrees of course. Martial or any other kind of physical training ain't the same thing by a long shot, even if it includes working through the threshold of the body. Best,

Best,

This is a good point regarding acute pain, ie an injury that is healing. The interesting thing is when the injury heals and yet the pain remains !? Best,

There is a great difference between pain and suffering. And you can philosophise it any way you wish to. It still comes down to pain and to suffering. When 'pain' is mentioned I personally think of physical pain, either acute or chronic. Mental and emotional pain/anguish while also carrying its own issues, and often related to physical pain, is not really what the below comments are about. It seems obvious, maybe I'm wrong, of who here that has responded is doing so from a place of genuine knowing. Rather than consideration and ideas, which are fine, but are what they are. Those that have lived in pain, and have helped people close to them live with pain, for years. Well, they tend to be more direct and pragmatic. Coping strategies abound, some help, some make things worse and yet help the person get through a day they otherwise would not be able to do! Is there a right or wrong? I don't know. People get very attached to their pain, even if it is something they tell you they would love to get rid of. The more it affects your life, the longer it is there, the more it is part of your life, who you are, what you identify with, or get labelled as. Then what? I would not be learning what I am or have the teachers that I do, if it was not for years of chronic pain. Wish I'd listened, but you know other things already had my attention so I needed something loud. I have seen people grow as a result of constant pain. I have seen people overcome much despite constant pain. And I have known people who's lives were eroded away and destroyed because of pain. It is hard to judge strength of character unless you can truly relate to what they are experiencing, and the sum of all that they have experienced leading up to that point. Just some of my thoughts, Best,

Mythmaker, you make a good point. However, IME this is a misunderstanding of sorts. The head floating up, IS "suspending" from the head. "suspended from" means a sense of connection down the whole length and a 'sense of the throughness of the vertical'. Which it sounds like your getting. There is a misconception though that the lengthened spine maintains the same sense of pull throughout its length. This appears to come from people treating it like a rope and trying to lengthen or stretch it out? As I have been taught: The head, from Dazhui (C7) lifts and floats with bahui having a sensation of being drawn upwards lightly. There is a pivot point, and the front sinks releases downwards through the throat with space behind the notch. The spine from mingmen rises, babei, drawn upwards this is a stronger sensation. This is the expansion of the bones, the tissues will feel as though they melt downwards. The sternum has TWO directions, outside it sinks down, inside is rises up. In effect it hardly moves, NO collapsing of the chest. From mingmen down the spine sinks. This allows the weight of the tailbone to open the spine. There is much more but I'll leave it here. There should be no 'pull' or stiffness, just expansion and floating. There is also a big difference between the relationship of the head lifting and the feet in neigong to martial arts as I have been taught, due to the different emphasis in rooting. This was only cleared up for me recently. The 'pushing' the head up, which can cause stiffness, is a different method used primarily in martial arts to train different things and is a yang approach to developing the spine into a single bow 弓 (gong) from the two it usually is. Best,

Fill a bath with hot water. Pour in a load of cold water. Stick your hand in and swirl it around to mix the water until you can take your hand out and watch as the water 'circulates'. Now, where is the channel?? Not clear enough? Try adding a dye to the cold water. How does the "channel" relate to the whole bath of water? Best,

Simple. Having qi in the dantian. No water in the tank, nothing is gonna move about but your mind and awareness. Listen to Scotty, Best

I agree with DRT Though I would read this first; http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Life-Force-Apprenticeship-Master/dp/1591810558/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1333141889&sr=8-1 Then I would Tao & Longevity. yin & yang

Intersting stuff, thanks for sharing Dao rain Tao. All the best,