寒月 Hanyue

Sorry for the confusion but that is not what I said. I am NOT talking of expansion over compression. What I will say though, is that there is a very real difference in training the internal organs and other tissues in returning to a balanced, harmonious, and say optimal 'pressure' that enables them to function efficiently and well. And taking that foundation and training it beyond that for martial reasons. I am also saying, as DRT has I believe hinted at, that trying to do the latter without a nod to the former is why people run in to trouble. It can be hard to learn where you really are NOW, when everyone is trying to tell you where you should be. Leaping after the goal is called 'end gaming', some short cuts aren't worth it IMO. But thats me. Best,

Well said. It has to be mentioned that it is not just Chia and his method that falls foul of the above. The student should NEVER give up their common sense or hand SOLE RESPONSIBILITY to the teacher, regardless of their 'reputation' or apparent 'achievements'. Instead they should be diligent in listening and abosorbing what is being taught, learning to read between the lines. Best,

Some change how they are physically breathing without really changing anything energetically. Then there is no real difference. Listen not to the body but what is happening energetically and in the dantian, what difference do you feel? That should tell you a lot. Best,

Yes it is. I do not understand it. I have experienced four people work on me long distance. I never believed in it either. I have no idea how it works, though I have their explanations. I should say, the medical qigong that Ya Mu teaches is NOT like reiki or what most people consider to be a laying on of hands qigong healing. And there are, unfortunately but as is to be expected, many claiming to do things that they are simply incapable of, same as any field of expertise. Best regards,

I honestly don't care whether anyone believes about the medical qigong or not. Every person is responsible for their own thoughts and beliefs. Quite frankly I don't expect people to simply read about something on a forum by people they don't know and believe them because it is not sommething I do. And I don't expect others to do anything different to myself. Anyone who knows me knows just how skeptical I am (it was ingrained in my by one of my teachers), I go on what I have personally felt and experienced not what I've heard and I certainly don't think anyone else should do any different. I have felt what Ya Mu and Kempomaster can do, but it doesn't mean I'll take everything they tell me and simply accept it. No, I'll file it away, and wait. Wait until the opportunity arises when I can observe or feel/experience it for myself. And then I'll have a sense of 'knowing' about it rather than an idea based on what I heard. What is not scientific about that? Kempomaster has posted much about his medical qigong healing on this forum, he does so in support of his teacher Ya Mu and to allow people to hear of just what is possible with medical qigong. Much of it sounds very remarkable, and often hard to believe. I posted about Kempomaster simply so people could hear about his efforts from someone other than himself. To know that other people had benefitted and are grateful to him. This can be quite different to simply reading his own posts about his own healings. A similar reason as to why he posts, so that it isn't just his teacher Ya Mu talking of the results of medical qigong. Where people may hold Ya Mu up and think the results occur simply because it is him. Now wait a minute, you said you didn't expect anyone to believe you? No I don't. But if they are not even made aware of the option, of the possibility, how can they even begin to look and explore and experience to find out FOR THEMSELVES? Which is all anyone can do, no? A number of people, many of whom are on this board have expressed in private their appreciation of kempomaster, his healing work, and his work in support of his teacher. I felt it was time it was said openly. Why should I not express gratitude and thanks publically to a friend for helping? I am not trying to prosetylse, nor change anyone's believes. I hope this can be understood and accepted in the spirit with which it was intended. All the best,

I would say this issue has been around for A LONG TIME, and probably will be around for some time to come. Everyone has to find their answer. I've always liked; "The Kālāma Sutta is also used for advocating prudence by the use of sound logical reasoning arguments and the dialectic principles for inquiries in the practice that relates to the discipline of seeking truth, wisdom and knowledge whether it is religious or not. In short, the Kālāma Sutta is opposed to blind faith, dogmatism and belief spawned from specious reasoning." "Kalama Sutta: To the Kalamas" translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu Do not simply believe what you hear just because you have heard it for a long time. Do no follow tradition blindly merely because it has been practiced that way for many generations. Do not be quick to listen to rumors. Do not confirm anything just because it agrees with your scriptures. Do not foolishly make assumptions. Do not abruptly draw conclusions by what you see and hear. Do not be fooled by outward appearances. Do not hold on tightly to any view or idea just because you are comfortable with it. Do not accept as fact anything that you yourself find to be illogical. Do not be convinced of anything out of respect and deference to your spiritual teachers. You should go beyond opinion and belief. You can rightly reject anything which when accepted, practiced and perfected leads to more aversion, more craving and more delusion. They are not beneficial and are to be avoided. Conversely, you can rightly accept anything which when accepted and practiced leads to unconditional love, contentment and wisdom. These things allow you time and space to develop a happy and peaceful mind. This should be your criteria on what is and what is not the truth; on what should be and what should not be the spiritual practice. Shakyamuni Buddha. But I suppose even monkeys fall outta trees

Sorry chi Dragon you have not understood correctly. I know you mean well, but you are wrong. Jingdonggong (靜動功) is the name given this method by Hu Yaozhen, one of the 'grandfathers' of "qigong". It was written about in his book published in the 50's with the support of the government who at the time were promoting qigong. Apologies if his choice of name confuses you, but there you go. I will however take his understanding of Daoist, Buddhist, and martial cultivation over yours. And since he was one of the people involved in choosing the term "qigong" to refer collectivley to the variety of Chinese practices that exist, I am also more inclined to accept the definition of just what qigong IS through his lineage. I am also well aware that jinggong and donggong are two common terms. They are NOT what was being referred to. All the best,

I like this, thank you. I will however make a change; This a story, and one way to tell it. Peter preached and some mocked Peter. Those people are mockers. If they heard the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would mock it. After Peters sermon some people were confused. Those people are the confused. If the confused listen to the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would still be confused. Some people heard Peter were excited by it and believed. These are the believers. If a believer hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy they would belief in its wonder and chase it with enthusiasm, but not understand. A few people 'listened' to Peter and nodded. These people were 'listeners' they'd heard a truth. If someone who can 'listen' hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy, they'll immediately put it into practice. One person was present at Peter's sermon and they smiled. This person 'knew', and was able to 'listen' and weigh listening with 'knowing'. If someone who can 'listen' and weight it against 'knowing' hears the most erudite explanation of Taoist Alchemy then there is little else to do. That is why IMO so few attain. Practice is important. Understanding is important. Neither are as important as changes of BEING. Everyone likes to complicate things. look at Zouwang and how people have written of and explained it through the centuries! They think there is a method that was omitted or kept secret and only hinted at by Zhuang Zi. Yet the two words contain it all, instead convuluted practices appear purporting to teach it. It doesn't even make sense Nothing worthwhile is complicated, it isn't easy either. I'm struggling my ass off! Best,

Short answer, Jing dong gong. Known in English as Stillness Movement Neigong. Best,

Intersting and informative posts, thank you Jetsun, Joeblast, and L7S. I have found the work of John Selby to be quite informative in this regard. Especially his comments on the usual one pointed focus practice found in 'Zen'. His research, he's a psychologist and done neurological tests regarding meditation, they hooked up yogis to EEG machines and watched the brain wave activities as they performed meditationas and various tasks. They found that a multiple point awareness shifted the brain into alpha and calmed the mind. I cannot help but feel the 'mindfulness of breath' practices have somewhat been diverted from their original nature. He now teaches a method that allows the mind to quieten using multiple points of perceptual awareness rather than one. His proposed method is remarkably similar in many ways to the old Ch'an method Liu Hung Chieh taught Bruce Frantzis. It is simple. I feel the air flowing in and out of my nose. I also feel the movements in my chest and belly as I breathe. I'm aware of my whole body here in this present moment. I honour and love myself, just as I am right now. This split awareness or primary and secondary is an interesting thing. His chapter in 'Kundalini rising' is well worth reading especially if you have read his mush earlier work on Kundalini. Best,

Dear all, I'm going to be polite. This thread is NOT about peoples beliefs, or any ideas concerning anything. It is about thanks and gratitude, not only my own but also that of others which has been expressed to me off the forum. If ANYONE finds that this thread stirs something up inside them be it positive or negative and wishes to express themselves publically on such matters, then please START YOUR OWN THREAD regarding that issue. A thread where any ensuing debate can be carried out by those wishing to participate. Any such posts on here will simply be treated as off topic, de-railing etc. If this request is felt to be too much to ask then it unfortunately reflects on the behavious of some forum members and their manners or lack thereof. My many thanks to those who have recognised the intent behind the thread and have either contributed accordingly or PM'd me. I thank you for your time, Best regards, [edited for spelling]

Yes. And it because of that, that for some time I've felt you deserved some public thanks and gratitude. The more people talk to me about you and what you've done for them the more this has been on mind. Quite. I realised that as I finished writing my post. Yet I have found in the past a trait amongst others to write off the person and lay everything at the systems feet. Or even the other way around, and claim that someone achieves because of 'natural' gifts alone. While I know the system is a rare one, it is only through the work and efforts of people like Ya Mu and yourself that people such as myself even hear of its existence. Well said. Take care my friend, all the best.

Thank you,

I think the 32 body part meditation CAN be used within Patikulamanasikara, but it is not specifically one and the same. This does however and along Cameron's post highlight something important. WHY are you practicing what you are practicing? HOW are you practicing what you are practicing? WHAT are you practicing? I have found few teachers who actually openly and freely pass on all three of the above. Best,

I believe Jetsun was drawing attention to the relationship of the practices, rather than saying they are one and the same?? Best,

That's yet another version from Bodri to the ones I have! The meditation the hermit uses to heal Hakuin is similar and yet quite different to the skeleton meditation, but does involve dissolving the body. Will have a look, but yes it is much closer to the Tibetan style than many Ch'an meditations. I prefer the simple method myself, I feel images/vision should occur naturally based out of direct sensual-feeling-awareness of ones own body. In fact I feel this is where the imagery originates from and it is a reversed engineered method to attempt to get the neophtye to the same experience. Yes I've been taught to use the skeletal system to ground myself, it certainly has stabilising effect. See my previous post about skeletalisation for one aspect. Becoming bones alone is quite common. The bones are the densest part of us, or generally considered to be so. As such they are the biggest barrier to dissolution of self, so it would make sense they end up with more attention in some practices. Additionally the development of 内视 neishi or innervision is said to occur with the practice and this can result in seeing the bones of yourself like an x-ray (Doc Morris reports this) or even into the bodies of others like a kind of x-ray (YaMu has written of people at the Baoding Hospital in this regard). There is also a predominence of the use of 'bone method' in various circles of the cultivation of 'arts' in both China and Japan. This is the underlying correct usage of the body. A bit chicken and the egg, which came first who knows, but it is interesting nonetheless. Best,

Hehe, now I'm hungry

Quite!

Bodri makes many claims, all based on his teachers teaching. History is informed speculation at best. Keep reading and you always find someone else able to use the same available resources to argue the opposite. It can be frustrating until you realise the truth of the matter, which is no-one really knows. Joan Halifax wrote of the 'skeletonisation' motif that appears again and again in Shamanic practices related to the process of dismemberment that often occurs not only in intiations but simply whenever a shaman 'dies' to journey with the spirits. "In approaching the edge of death the spirits gain a foothold...one learns to travel to the other realms and back. Relationships with the spirits are complex and varied.... Dismemberment and skeletonization are common initiatory themes. The initiation is the cure, and one is transformed in the process, gaining a new spiritual body." Donalee Campbell I would say such practices that result in such experiences are the origins of even the Buddha's meditation. Everything becomes more sanitised in time. I agree with you about the flavour and intent. Though Bodri's version does contain references to the body as 'dirty qi', and mentions that it is related to the Buddhist contemplation practices on the impurity of the body. Where someone "slowly envisions that their body gradually putrefies and becomes just bones, then dust...[you are] taught to visualise the decomposition of the body in consecutive stages: the body first swells, then becomes discoloured, decays, its blood and pus issue forth, the flesh falls away...etc" He has also referred to how in olden times the practice was undertaken in graveyards, where actual decomposing corpses were available and so the practitioner could use those to help with visualising their own skeletons and flesh falling off. So it is mentioned to provide historical context, but omitted within the actual steps of the practice, you have to wonder who did the editing. I can't help but feel these thigns always start simple and become more complex. His version also makes greater use of and emphasises visualisation and imagery than other versions which emphasise feeling and awareness. I agree the Daoist versions are largely empty of these, and simply aim at forgetting it all. I know little about Buddhism, though I have reliably been informed there is a great difference between Buddism the cultivation school and Buddism (religion) whatever that means. I do know most teachers and authors confuse me, so few seem to be able to cut through it all and speak clearly and pragmatically. I dabble on occasion when I find something of interest, if only to compare it with the Daoist practices. Best,

What is Love? Nothing more than neurotransmitters and biochemical thingammies affecting the nervous system? I probably shouldn't beleive in that either... Or is experience worth diving into regardless of the things that it can be reduced to under a microscope? Facing the elements on top of a mountain is not the same as understanding the meteorological reasons as to how and why the weather can change so drastically. It is wise to pursue cultivation with a sensible mind, but if you close it to posibilities to make yourself more comfortable how much are you pursuing it? Best,

This is sound advice. But if you are aware of amendments made by Winn or Yudelove and find those preferable then go for it! I know Winn has found some of Bruce's methods beneficial and adopted them himself in what he teaches. Though it appears he doesn't understand them as Bruce teaches them and has adapted them for the needs of the system he teaches, which is fairly typical. A cursory look shows me adopting Bruce's whole body breathing as an alternative has become quite common. I wonder why? One of my teachers has explained that the whole idea of "packing" qi is erroneous, because the translation of the Chinese into English gives a false impression. In Chinese the term has the connotation of creating more space to allow more to fill in. In English 'packing' has the connotation of squeezing and pushing more and more in to something. Quite different. Ponder the implications of that. And bear in mind that even in China these days there are many doing these practices incorrectly too. I have been taught some quite bad Yijinjing by Chinese teachers thinking it is all about extremes of tension!! But I digress. I would do your best to stick within the paradigm of your system and follow what those far more experienced within that system are doing, based on their experience. Which is what you appear to be doing. Winn and Yudelove made important changes to these methods to make them better and safer, it is worth listening to them. When people start having to write things like "That's the way I learned it from Master Chia in the early eighties, when the practices were more simple and straightforward, before Master Chia started "improving" the practices." JMS And, "Everyone who has studied with Master Chia knows that the packing practices in Iron Shirt have not been actively taught for quite a few years." JM I wonder why?... "Then one day after practice, I noticed a mass of little red dots spread all over my chest. The blood vessels were beginning to pop. That shook me up. I stopped all packing immediately. But the red dots didn't disappear, and six years later many of the blood spots remain, grim reminders of youthful excess." MW Oh, thats why!! Here are some relevant pages that may help, you may have already seen them? But hopefully for others reading this who haven't they'll be helpful. http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1Intro.htm http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1GentlerResources.htm http://www.precisiondocs.com/~altaoism/IS1WinnGentleEasyWay.htm http://alchemicaltaoism.com/ Best,

First of all, love the Alice in Wonderland quote Very apt, and oh so true. You see, I agree with you 100% in this post, especially; "However if you a specific goal for your practice, then it only makes sense to be certain the school you are investing so much of your time into can deliver as promised." My only point being, that while YOU need to find the lineage that can aid you in the pursuit of YOUR GOAL, so does everyone else. And who said anyone elses goal is any better or worse than yours? And no I don't just mean that "well its fun, and you know I get so stressed in the wek so like it's er my aim to be less, 'scatty'" As a result we have a multitude of traditions (ignoring the watered down lines that always emerge). Knowing where you want to go is an important step in navigating, having a map to help you get there is also important. It is also vitally important to know WHERE on the map you are NOW, so you can head in the right direction. Personally I am most interested in a lineage that helps me figure out the last thing. Then I'll worry about where to go from there All the best,

Definately needed repeating. Well said, Friend. I have caused some confusion in my posts, and for this I apologise. My terminology came from the teacher who clarified things for me, they used the term 'school'. It is not a reference to specific schools, and more to lines of transmission. These lines do get muddled and watered down, so yes it is arguable that those are not 'genuine' in a sense. To me though it is like looking at a local 'gongfu' guy trying to do his "Shaolin" sets, and righting off Shaolin without consideration of anything else. So yes, learning to discern the 'false' from the 'real', as I mentioned before, is a part of the path. Now this explanation, which is ONLY ONE WAY of looking at things (was offered simply to share so please take it or leave it, I don't care), made sense to me from my own experiences and from those of people I know in cultivation as well as esoteric martial art schools. More Pie. I'm glad you have explained your aim. It helps understanding why you view things the way you do. You have a goal and are single minded in its pursuit, that is admirable. My only point is that to think that someone who is not pursuing the same thing as yourself is wrong or falling short of the mark, is well, a bit odd from my point of view. But I'm not you, and you're not me. I hope you get your plot of land. All the best,