寒月 Hanyue

From an anthropological pov, in my opinion this is a misconception. I also think many in the 'West' misrepresent the flat foot squat and its place in cultivation and martial arts. I know people who can naturally do a flat foot squat as being described, some are English, some Scottish, some Chinese. All of these people also have stiffness in some parts of the legs and back, and some even complain of lumbar pain. They do not train or practice cultivation, they can simply squat this way "naturally". At the same time I know people who are Chinese and Japanese who cannot squat this way. There is great variation in bone structure from individual to individual. Tension is also a play in ranges of motion, but strength and co-ordination of the movement pattern is just as relevant in squatting. Yes there are people who can flat foot squat and those that cannot. Some cannot simply due to structure etc, some because they have 'forgotten' how. I don't see it as culturally so black and white though. There is a big difference between having squatting as a natural movement pattern you don't have to think about, and 'training a squat' I have read papers on how the pelvic structures of the Japanese differs leading to inherent differences in the ROM of the hip and pelvic joints. And it is also understood that the Chinese and Japanese have thicker patella tendons, though whether this is pure genetics or a combination of genetics and 'conditioning' through daily routine is unclear. You make use of what you have without thinking about it. These days many don't even realise the deficit. Mabu teaches the same thing as proper 'Western' conditioning squatting technique from what I have seen. Yet most argue about how to do either correctly so good luck with figuring that out. Best,

As with most things there is no one 'way' with this. These are some of my thoughts. Doc Morris got me into learning theory. He states in one of his books that when old texts say something like "the one thing that lets you learn the 10,000 things", they are referring to meditation. These days my feeling is that while this is true, the one thing is knowing how to learn. Or more specifically knowing how YOU learn. Medtitation of course strips much away and lays this process bare, making the learning of other things easier as you now know yourself better. While some traditions hold the lineage successor up on a pedestal for being the one most able to embody the wisdom and teachings of the previous Master. The point that easily gets forgotten is that most often the Master transmits in a very specific way. Those that 'get' it, simply learn best in the manner the tradition is being transmitted. Those that do not learn in this manner will always struggle. Does it mean they are stupid or unable? no it comes down to the individual and how they best absorb information and embody it. This is why one person who spends 20 years in a system and doesn't get very far, then meets another teacher and BANG the bulbs go on. Then you have them say how crap the old system was and how amazing the new one is. Oddly enough though, if you keep looking, you'll more than likely find the same thing happen the other way around for someone else. Why? Learning theory and learning process. The other important aspect of this is that nothing is static. Our ability to comprehend and the depth to which we can is intricately tied to our state of BEING. This is not a judgemental comment, or something about right/wrong, or better/worse etc. Who you are right now is the total sum of all your previous experience. This is why hearning the same words spoken or reading the same words written down at different times will speak very different things to the same person. Your state of consciousness and BEING changes and is not constant. What we learn in one state is not always available to us in other states, this is taken advantage of in esoteric circles as well as Ericksonian hypnosis and sports performance psychology. Regarding the tradition Vs the individual aspect. There are always pro's and con's, arguments that can be made for either. The tradition when done properly is 'Standing on the shoulders of Giants', it is a supportive structure that means one person does not have to reinvent the wheel and spent years chasing dead ends. Traditions and lineages does not mean there is no creativity, and yet there is also a giving up of self that can appear to be stifling or constrictive. Yet is this any different to giving oneself up to an art or music teacher? It is knowing how and when. Not adhering to a system means no rules, you are free to work out things as they makes most sense to you, how things work best for you. It doesn't matter, and no obligations are a burden. The guiding light is most helps you get where you wnat to go now. There are also the negative sides of these, traditions and teachers of them that simply take advantage, or have become solely about the tradition and not the people that make the tradition (what is a lineage if not the people in it?). Individuals who with no guidance spend their lives searching and never getting anywhere, or worse deluding themselves. An incredible arrogance can be born from both the self styled indivduals, as well as the 'my lineage is the oldest/best/powerfullest' crowd. And this is part of it for me. One is about being something bigger than oneself, the other is about standing on ones own two feet. Do they have to be a polarity? I don't feel it has to be an either or, situation. I think the separation is the myth. I don't percieve a lineage as meaning you have no freedom to experiment or be creative. It's not about changing the methods taught, but about engaging with those practices in a way that makes sense to you, to your current state of BEING. And seeing how that changes over time, as the method stays the same and yet changes as it deepens in you. Of course there are traditions that are taught in a very rigid way. This is not just an Eastern thing. The idea is primarily about the individual giving up themselves to learn to be free from the constraints they themselves cannot see. Something VERY hard to do on ones own, as we all hide from ourselves. But is this the only way? Not at all. Whether any approach is a waste of time simply comes down to whether it was appropriate for that person at the point in their path. I do feel that too many rely on the percieved 'All knowing' teacher to determine this, and do not even make an effort to meet them half way. Even in a lineage you don't lose autonomy or responsibility for your self, not in a real lineage anyway.If you have a teacher you trust you can seek their guidance as well as listen to yourself. The more you open to your self and your own learning process, the more you can listen and then you will know when a lineage will or will not be beneficial if embraced, or if you need to do you own thing and simply put in the time and effort. Anyway, its late and I've rambled enough. Hope it is coherent enough to make sense in some way. Best,

Hi Jetsun I have heard this type of thing stated/quoted by other teachers. However I have never had a teacher basically point a finger at you and let you experience this on the spot. This is what Michael did, I can only explain it as a glimpse into your true heart/being. One of the overall feelings I was left with after the three days was a clarity about this, a 'knowing', not an idea or belief or notion about anything, a 'knowing', and with it a relaxed sense of calm I cannot describe. Yes it waned in time, at least for me. The practice is a spiritual Daoist path, and a powerful alchemical process. The healing is a wider benefit born from the emerging compassion, and is a result of those healers (who in Michael's terms, made an agreement before) awakening to that part of themselves and pursuing it. Michael encourages everyone to follow their own path and to awaken to themselves whatever that is, SM is not JUST about producing healers. Though it could be said that those that are meant to be healers have a way of finding it. This process of learning to listen and awaken to yourself can be odd, it requires letting go of your current sense of self and can have the feeling of being moved about like a piece on a chess board. You asked about personal benefits, I am not going to go into details, but my life was shifted as I watched the pieces being moved around and re-aligned. The closest description would be watching the adjustment bureau at work, and that doesn't do it justice. I am still working through the ripples of that, but in a good way Best

I first heard of Dr Wu due to his latest book, I get new releases e-mails from Three pines press (see below). Haven't read it, so can't comment but thought folks on here might be interested if they like his earlier stuff. Best The Eight Immortals Revolving Sword Description This is the story of Master Wu and the esoteric sword practice he learned at the White Cloud Monastery in Beijing. It opens this practice to the outside world for the first time, explaining its history, theory, cosmology, and practice in great detail. The Eight Immortals Revolving Sword goes back for seventeen generations, starting with Wang Chongyang, the founder of the Complete Reality school and martial arts champion of the Song dynasty, and actively continued through Qiu Chuji and other senior Daoist lineage holders. Practicing sword to attain immortality is a profound Daoist method. Master Wu shares his insights and practice instructions as a way of self-cultivation, illuminating the power of the practice to drive away inauspicious energies, eliminate harmful incidents, and safeguard against ghosts. Able to harness good fortune, practice of this sword set enhances inner communication and creates an intimate connection with the universe. In traditional Chinese fashion, Master Wu guides the reader through the ins and outs of the history, folklore, and technique of this sword practice, focusing especially on the figures of the Eight Immortals and explaining their legends, practices, and feats in great detail. Along the way, he highlights the hidden jewels of training with insightful commentaries on various parables, thereby to bring out the essence of Dao. He succeeds masterfully at braiding together his unique training history and deep Daoist insights with treasured traditional stories, creating a thrilling account and setting a palpable example of Daoism's best kept inner secrets as brought to life in actual experiences today. Can be ordered as ebook or print on demand through lulu.

Says a lot really. Sounds like time for a name change to me Ya Mu's 仙山医功 XIANSHAN YIGONG "IMMORTAL mountain healing method" originating from the remote 三仙道观 SANXIAN DAOGUAN "Three IMMORTALS" temple of Huangshan. When in constant pain you don't care what they do, they could say the treatment involves being painted with Yak's butter! if it makes a difference they'll do it. Where it comes from, what it is or how it is explained doesn't come into it. Just WILL IT ACTUALLY HELP. I have continually been appalled at what the chronic pain sufferers in the UK are subjected to. Little actual beneficial help, often derision and skepticism of their pain, and often an arrogant "I cannot help you, so YOU cannot be helped" by various specialists as you ping pong from deptartment to department. I have met a great number of people who have simply been left to live in pain. I meet people all the time who have niggles (professional medical term ) and are doing nothing about it, they also seem disinterested in treatment of any kind or doing anything about it. Yet it is obvious that 9 times out of 10 it will cause much greater issues later on and be much harder to sort out. They do however like to moan about it, and appear quite attached to this things. Best,

Thats what came through to me Apologies, while it certainly is not the only thing, it appeared in reading the conversation between yourself and Jetsun that that was one of central aspects causing confusion. The other about the descending stomach on the exhale, well that has to do with a myriad of things regarding how one understands the kai-he (open/close) of body as a whole. Feel what the pelvis, pelvic floor/diaphragm, 'kua' muscles (iliacus, psoas eetc), sacrum, lumbar spine, diaphragm, and ribs do when you breath. Depending on how they move and interact they will move the organs differently on both the inhale and the exhale. The felt experience of how the body opens and closes, elongates and shrinks, as well as organ movement will change on the inhale and exhale drastically depending on how the synergistic movements of the above are engaged. Given that such variances occur in peoples teaching, you have to wonder really what is "natural" Best,

This is simply from my experience and what I've been taught, The body naturally breathes in a variety of ways given the fluctuations and demands placed upon it by varying circumstances. "Natural" breathing then is the body breathing appropriately given the changes occuring. This is classic I jing, it is all about 'changes' IME. "Un-natural" or "forced" breathing is when we impose a way to breath on to our body that is NOT appropriate for the changes in circumstance. This can occur both consciously and unconciously due to imbedded trauma/tension/emotions etc. Our bodies learn to adapt and breath a certain way due to the lives we have lived. If we try to impose a breathing pattern/method onto that without fully acknowledging WHERE WE ARE, we may cause ourselves problems. This has been found to be true and has been documented by others, Dennis Lewis is a good source about such things. As for breath work it is always wuwei (natural) and yuwei (prescriptive). Many good breath work teachers teach becoming aware and present to your current breathing as an important first foundational step. Developing this awareness and presence to the breath naturally improves the breathing process without doing anything. Wuwei. This in itself can become a deep and involved practice, especially as you open your presence to more and more of what you can feel going on, and infact there is for most people little reason to practice anything else. Prescriptive breathing is always applying a specific pattern or breathing method. This should be done to address percieved weaknesses. If the weakness is not present it is a waste of time, the wuwei approach is far more beneficial. If a teacher or, through your own awareness (developed above) you find a weakness, then a breathing pattern or method can be used to balance that area. Scotty, based on my experience Jetsun is correct. But I feel it is an easy misunderstanding based around the words "contract inwards". It is not usual for the ribs to be actively contracted ie closed on exhalation in every day to day breathing. The natural position of the ribs is an open one, look at anatomy and good aligned posture. In breathing it is natural for them to return to a a still open position after having been expanded open further when inhaling. So yes it is natural for the ribs to close and move inwards on exhale, but only to return to their original position. It is quite unatural to pull them closed further than this, and is not observed in relaxed people. But yes the more space and free the spine, ribs, organs etc are the more they will move in an easy and relaxed fashion, both opening and closing further. There are many arguments over which cycle (inhale/exhale) should be active and which passive. It really comes down to the fact, that they are both right given the right circumstances (active exhale tends more towards exerting and effort)and the body will choose which on its own if we let it. That said many in cultivation circles emphasise active inhale and a passive exhale as the "natural" breathing, this is because it indicates which physiological functions are 'on' and which are 'off'. As mentioned above, the body actually likes to shift and not be retained to one ALL the time. Some breathing methods, do teach a process of emphasising the open and close past 'natural' ranges in both directions in an attempt to improve the breathing function. Yet the natural breathing function remains well within the ranges of these methods. These are IME inherently dangerous and uneccessary, but can be practiced safely and are not totally without merit. Particularly in martial arts, as they teach you to close the ribs on exhalation to create amouring for the organs. But these are 'prescriptive', you may sit down and do it for 20 minutes or when doing a practice etc but its not how to breath all day. For example, Pavel teaches whole body tension for conditioning exercises, but you're not to maintain it all day long. It is common for people to be taught breathing and for it to be assumed they are meant to breath that way all the time. Same thing happens with skeletal alignments and other things as well. It can be hard to differentiate between the wuwei (24 hours a day) practices and the yuwei prescriptive and re-balancing adjustment exercises as many do not make it clear which they are teaching. Hope this helps and doesn't just add more confusion.

They are two ends of a spectrum at best. They are practiced for different reasons and with different purposes in mind. Sonnon teaches breathing other than his PB (tends to be drawn from the yoga side), though that is the one he has focused upon. He used to teach a range of Russian breathing from ROSS, but synthesised it all down to PB as he found this was the most effective (in his opionion) for conditioning and fighting. If you want to understand PB look at Hanna somatics breathing lessons then go back to Sonnon's PB. In recent years Sonnon has shifted his understanding of the core and how breathing and the spine relate, but the original influence of Hanna's work is still there. This "compressive" breathing is also found in some Daoyin, and Japanese cultivation practices. I first learned it in Koryu training. Bruce's 'method' is also not ONE method, it is in itself a spectrum. It involves several breathing patterns/rhythms, several physical breathing methods as well a progression of subtle/energy breathing methods. Bruce emphasises health, though does also teach methods for conditioning from what I've heard. The main difference is in the use of the bodies natural physiological responses that occur due to breathing patterns, this is an indicator of what the aim or goal of the approach is actually about. Frantzis is after triggering the relaxation response, Sonnon is after improving conditioning in response to triggering the arousal response. There is also a divergence in understanding of the skeletal involvment and action with the breathing process. This is not too surprising given that nearly everyone I am aware of that goes into this have provided a smorgasboard of varying opinions of what is or is not "natural". I say this only so you know it isn't a case of 'A' breathing method and 'A'(nother) breathing method. Both are very specific perspectives that utilise breathing in very specific ways so as to progress the student towards the aims and goals of the wider system at large. Work with both but plunge their depths and see what you find. Best,

I use and highly recommend contrast bathing for injury recovery. What I learned came from Japan. I was taught a natural way use hot/cold water utilsing towels or soaks, that is very different than current sports medicine approaches using sustained heat/cold packs. The latter not having the same affect. The body is always trying to stabilise (homeostasis), if the temp is sustained it quickly reaches a place of diminishing returns and becomes pretty much pointless. From a classical Chinese medicine perspective NEVER use ice on soft tissue trauma. Though it seems many TCM doctors have now adopted the R.I.C.E. approach which is a big shame. I know many that use the 'quick cold shower' method. I have tried the Russian preference for cold water dowsing, ie throwing a bucket of cold water over your head. I have used both and again the experience is remarkable different (the latter is definately as much about psychological factors as physiological). It is not something I do regularly, I did it for a period to see what the fuss was about. Kevin Secours wrote on the Russian cold water dowsing here; http://www.montrealsystema.com/uploads/COLD_WATER_DOUSING.pdf Best,

I feel this is an unfair statement. Just because it hasn't caused problems for yourself does not mean it won't aggrevate a pre-condition in other people or cause a problem in yet others due to their individual bodies. To insinuate that any problems would only arise from incorrect practice is, in my view unfair. Without seeing a great many things concerning an individual how can anyone know? It is not just about held tensions, the range of motion before compression of different joints (including the neck) varies dramatically from individual to individual. Its why good teachers are good teachers Best,

Certainly an interesting question! Encephalon point is worth repeating. To expand a little. As well as intu-flow Sonnon teaches various shaking/vibration and relaxation work reminiscent of Chinese practices. Though he credits Slavic influences and Yoga more than qigong, it was the Chinese martial artists (more than anyone) going on about the obvious similarities when he first started teaching ROSS in the US. Intu-flow is considered a form of "qigong" by some. It is, if you are talking about the physically orientated Chinese Government endorsed understanding of qigong. If we are talking energetics, then no its not. Several of his students have been involved in "qigong" and chinese martial arts, though I have never seen anything of that side of their work that impressed me at all. Especially their odd attempts to 'translate' qigong into RMAX terminology. Frantzis already teaches jibengong that specifically fits with the dissolving method. It's his most famous neigong set 'Opening the energy gates of your body'. The six exercises are incremental and build to slowly open the body, from static to dynamic, from slow and smooth to elastic and springy. Most teach a basic joint warm up before doing taiji or the neigong, if you wanted to derive that from Sonnon for the most part I suppose you'd be ok, though the approaches to spinal work differ extensively. They are yin and yang though. Where Sonnon is going and what he is doing is quite different to Frantzis. This is most evident in the breathing approaches. Just be aware of the different destinations they are trying to take you in. But there is nothing that says you can't pursue both. Interestingly one of his old students was a student of Frank Allen and used to combine the Frantzis Bagua via Allen with the material from Sonnon (if I can find the articles I'll post em). So you're not alone Best,

Hi Steve, yes it reminds me of the "you must destroy/kill/leave behind the ego", "if you are alive you have an ego" etc etc. Paradox seems important. A lot has happened to systematise Chinese medicine, qigong, even Daoism in the last 100 years. Sometimes seeing the different ways that the same thing can be explained, described helps with the whole 6 blind men and an elephant conundrum. All models that attempt to explain these things won't hold water if scrutinised. Lao Zi wrote on the first page of the Dao de jing that you have to work on understanding the Dao, and yet also let it be and wonder at its mystery. Best,

It's not my interpretation. I am simply passing on an interesting piece of information. It comes from a well respected daoist priest and medical qigong teacher, I know several students and find his work interesting while his approach is not a fit for me personally. Best

The character for yi 意 is the character 心 with the character 音 above it. How is this not true? We all know 心 so; 音 (yin): [sound / noise / note (of musical scale) / tone / news / syllable / reading] Brag away. I still find different definitions, nuances and meanings of words with my own first language, as well as how words used today meant something quite different in times past. I have spoken with MANY native speakers of Chinese who know nothing of the way terms are used within Daoism or Buddhism, particulalry old texts. They know the words and their current usage yes, but nothing more. Arguments over words is pointless, that is not what I am trying to do. Unfortunately they are all we have to express experiences and understanding. As I said before all you can do is investigate your own experience with the guidance of people you trust. Understanding words is no different regardless of the language. Peace to you to

Dammit, you're gonna make me go find a dictionary! Being playful and 'wandering', crops up in aspects of many paths. Thanks for the answer I'll post my reply/thoughts when I have more time. I have exams to study for. Best,

Search his posts I'm sure he's mentioned it here before. Bar that, get his book. Shameless plug from a student!? Never!! Not only is Ya Mu one of only a VERY small number of people who have expressed the difference in a palpable way in my presence. He is the ONLY teacher I have seen to have people he met only three days prior tangibly experiencing it for themselves in a productive manner! Most of what we have been discussing on this thread falls into 'linear', body methods, mind methods, body-mind methods etc. These are not the same as 'non-linear'. I can't explain it, I've felt it, maybe some things are meant to be left as mystery, to think you understand is a delusion and gets in the way of the Dao. Oh well, off for practice. Best,

ChiDragon On this forum, you have consistently expressed an understanding of, and beliefs about, what qigong is or is not that are generally not inline with my own. I do not have a problem with that, I think everyone should formulate their own understanding through the practice of the methods they study and the teachings of their teachers. I am not a native Chinese speaker, as I beleive you are nto a native English speaker. What I do know about languages comes from my anthropology background. I also know that common terms in any language can take on nuances and differences in meaning given specific contexts, and this doubly so when dealing with lineages and traditions. Words also change over time. I state all this only so you (as well as others reading) better know where I am coming from in the following comments. As I have been taught, 意 Yi, is made up of a musical note 音 (yin) emerging from the xin 心. Xin is often translated as mind, heart, heart-mind, but in Daoism can also have more of the meaning of 'Being'. Yi can be that which is expressed from our heart/mind/Being. As such it is most often seen as 'intention'. Intention is still a mediary between heart/mind/Being and action hence the phrase xin-yi-qi-li. Yi is born of the xin, yi moves qi moves, qi moves and is expressed in action, in this case 'li'. But action does not have to move through this process in nature, it is however helpful in learning. But that then is getting into yuwei and wuwei. Surely the idea of wuxin 无心 (no heart/mind) would not be so relevant or sought within cultivation if that which is produced by the xin was held and regarded so highly? For example my teacher says the mind does initiate the movement of qi, but then needs to be dropped. It is not used to manipulate qi. But this is really where modern qigong and older cultivation practices appear to diverge. I don't mean that in any better/worse judgement statement, so much as a recognition of the differences. Interesting comment, see above. But no-one said there was no yi (if yi is simply that which emerges from the xin, then we can appreciate there is passive and active and that they are quite different). I am well aware of the oddness of the Chinese in those phrases. I have discussed them with several native Chinese speakers. I can only say that they are a part of the Daoist lineage as taught by Bruce Frantzis from his teacher Liu Heng Chieh. I am also aware of the nuances of meaning in the words within the phrases. I personally prefer to leave space and ambiguity in my understanding of Chinese (and so often make short terse and heavily simplistic notes, as I deepen my understanding of the terms in the way the lineages use them this helps me from fixating solely on one "definition"). I feel it is part of the Beauty of the language (see the quote in my signature!). This is why I clearly stated (so maybe its was too simplistic, my apologies).Followed by I provide the Chinese, and the pinyin so that those interested in such things may look into it all a little deeper for them selves. And come to their own understanding. I am NOT trying to dictate how anyone should think or belive about these things. I offer possibilities, and hopefully interesting ones, that I am aware of. Mainly in the hope that others will do the same and we can then all learn and grow. Just to add additional confusion, but hopefully another dimension to this discussion I will throw in something further from what I have been taught. My Kundalini-shakti teachers always said, 'qi is dumb kundalini-shakti is intelligent'. This is because qi can be manipulated and K-S cannot. Nan Huai-Chin explains that Daoists are interested not in qi but in "real" or "genuine" qi (正氣 zhengqi), this he explains is called Kundalini-shakti in India. Bruce Frantzis explains that the qi referred to in acupuncture and TCM, the qi of the body, is NOT that same as the qi referred to by Daoists. He simply calls one 'qi', and the other 'Qi'. Why bring this up? Simply put, when we read a text, particularly one from a while back and they use the word qi. It is not always clear to which phenomenon they are referring. So when someone else then says "yi moves qi moves" or "use the yi to move your qi", well it may lead to mis-leading you as to the nature of things. Or place a glass ceiling on your experiences. Sorry, I think thats Bull* for too many reasons for me to go into. Best,

These are all opinions describing something that can't really be laid down. Understand based on your experience. Bruce teaches it as; 意 出 做 (yi chu zuo) Which I translate simplistically as "mind produces movement/action" and 氣 出 做 (qi chu zuo) translated simplistically as "energy produces movement/action" (I recommend looking things up in a good Chinese dictionary and understanding the words for yourselves) The first one uses 意 yi, that which emerges from the xin as a medium to engage with the qi. The second is direct contact with the qi from the xin, no intermediary. While I agree this second idea is more in line with ziran and 'dao', it can be used in ways other than say spontaneously, ie for healing. It is not that "yi moves the qi" is wrong or incorrect, it is simply one aspect of a greater whole that also includes other things. When Ya Mu explained about the INTENT and intention and the differences of that, it reminded me of the above. That's not to say they are the exact same thing, but the heart of the two messages seems closer than many other explanations I've seen discussing the same area. Best,

Sorry it took so long, had I known you were waiting I might have mentioned it sooner Modern qigong in a sense I suppose so. It certainly is on Chinese TV Gotta love your loaded questions! Yun 運 in simplistic modern terms means "to move", yet the term can have a different aspect in older traditions like gongfu and neigong. Yun 運 can "mean 'internal'..[and] is more associated with the organs, nervous system, brain, and feeling"(from Adam Hsu). So the concept of yunqi isn't just about "moving qi" although that is certainly an aspect of it. The general explanation is similar to most explanations of the term Daoyin 导引, though again there are always definitions that vary. Depends on who you talk to. Understanding yunqi as ONLY being explainable as yi-qi is only one of several points of view in cultivation circles. Yi moving the qi, appears to be short hand for shen/xin-yi-qi-li. Although yi moves the qi, is a popular saying it misses out the beginning and the end, that which exists before the yi (I have seen both 'shen' and 'xin' used), and that which is expressed afterwards via the 'movement' of qi (ie 'li'). It is but ONE model for understanding this process of creation from conception to expression. Qi can be moved directly or indirectly. Indirectly uses the medium of yi(mind). Directly does not and is more related to the xin(heart). Having experienced the difference from a number of different teachers and practitioners, and glimpsed the difference myself, I am inclined to take them at their word. Best, Edited for clarification and spelling

Was this an intentional or 'spontaneous' experience? +100 Back to Zhuang Zi In your experience why do you think that systems/methods more often than not end up doing just this? Because they don't have to, and some don't. It is unfortunate that most systems go for dogma and rigidity over playful expression and exploration as you describe. +1000 Thanks for starting an interesting thread Best,

Qigongamerica.com Speaks for itself. The one lineage is simply from Taoism. The other heavily influenced by it. Best,

Hey Scotty I agree, 顺 shun and 逆 ni are VERY misunderstood and badly translated, its a shame. Find a good dictionary and look them up, come to your own understanding. 运氣 yunqi certainly doesn't have to be forced, there are ways of moving qi and ways of moving qi. Best,

Yes it was, thank you Best,