寒月 Hanyue

In cultivation there is the "passive school" and the "active school", and there are blends of the two. However there are no shortcuts. Can a high level teacher help open your qimai? Yes. But why do you want them to? If you are given everything for free what have you earned? what have you learned? Nothing. A good High level teacher will help when and IF they feel it is appropriate. But you still need to practice. I've seen enough respected teachers explain how easily people can be deluded into thinking they have done something like "open a chakra", "open the MCO", "raise Kundalini" etc, to believe that there is a 'real' xiao zhou tian (small heavenly cycle(SHC)/Micro-cosmic Orbit(MCO)) and a 'false' one. Let's be clear though why has the SHC become SO famous and sought after? The explanations within Chinese medicine is like looking at medical texts on anatomy and physiology. So if you see an olympic athlete do something amazing, is a medical text on A&P going to tell you much? Not really, it certainly isn't going to tell you if that person was able to do that because of training and practice or simply because "they can", and even if it is possible those texts won't explain how to replicate it. The cultivation schools have their ways of working with your energy body and qimai based upon what they are trying to achieve. Same as a training hall churning out power lifters may dip into bio-medicine in its sports science, but will be different in how it uses that knowledge to say those training elite basketball players, or outside of sports, say the military. This is why you get different opinions on what the SHC is, and HOW to work with it. Not all roads lead to Rome. The ren and du mai are but two of eight qimai. These eight are called 奇 "qi". We call a day 24 hours, yet we know that in fact an actual day is not exactly 24 hours. This is how we end up with little bits of extra time that lead to leap years and so forth. The 24 hours would be "normal/ordinary" time, the other bits would be 奇 "qi" (extra-"ordinary"). It is not so much that they are extraordinary as in special or secret, it is more that they lie outside of "ordinary", they are "extra" if that makes sense. People make a big deal of them but they are really mis-understood. One of the reasons for this is because modern Chinese medicine (TCM) has focused upon zangfu (organ) theory and the theory of the jingluo (12 "ordinary" meridians), this in part if because zangfu most closely resembles Western bio-medicine anatomy, and because the jingluo can be used to influence the zangfu. In doing so it has marginalised many of the other theories and components that occured in Chinese medical thought. Now the eight qimai are often considered esoteric. This happens a lot. There is, in Western medicine and sports science, currently a big resurgence in the investigation and understanding of the role of the connective tissues (fascia) of the body, because Western bio-medical science had for the most part ignored it. Cutting it away during dissection to get to the interesting and, at that time, perceivably important body parts. Acknowledgment of its importance was always on the fringes, this is changing. But what else is being ignored? In cultivation terms what causes confusion is that someone explained an experience and subsequent observations, and that description became understood as important to replicate and copy to "Be" like the "Master". And so the experience is 'reverse' engineered. The student hearing of the experience of qi circulating through the qimai during practice, devises a way to move qi in that way. In time it becomes its own practice. Now in medicinal terms, through observation, we find that moving qi in certain ways has certain affects on the system and these can be beneficial for certain imbalances. Jerry Alan Johnson has written and spoken of this, how prescriptive practices become abused and misused. This include the "MCO" practices, which should only be done by certain people at certain times for certain reasons, and due to development you should move on. You don't want to still be doing rehab physiotherapy 10 years later! Are the ren and du mai important? yes, but focusing upon it over the other 6 of the eight qimai, or any other aspect of the whole is daft. They are intimately related with the daimai and chongmai as the four mai of the torso. Trunk made some good posts about this ages ago from his investigation and practice. My contribution is that it is easy to misunderstand the ren and du because the acupoint locations are drawn on the body for acupuncturists, which can give a false impression of the routes of the qimai, given the other six mai do not have their own acupoints this happens less so with them. There is waiqi and neiqi. Also, look at the physiology of the body, the spine and nervous system in back and the?...internal organs in front, understanding zheng 正 and zhong 中 are important IME. Best, Best,

You are welcome. Er, please re-read my original post. If that is what you got from what I said then my apologies. There are several acknowledged issues with Chia's method and this has been discussed at length before. There are both active and passive approaches to MCO development, just because some shout about it doesn't mean that those that don't don't open it, use it or understand it. Personally I think Chia's method is not very good, but is also more often than not taken out of context and mis-understood. The best of his books on it is probably 'Awakening healing light of the Tao'. But search and check out Michael's Winn's more recent elucidation's regarding Chia's method if that is the approach you have your heart set on. It will at least frame it properly for you. Chia teaches a progression of practices that builds to neidan. Any part of the whole should not be taken out of the context of the whole. Even though the MCO is made a deal of within the Healing Dao System (and by those influenced by it), it is a part of the system and not the beginning of that system. A foundation prior to MCO should be developed, this I have found over the years is all too forgotten. While from buddhism, I feel this is relevant; "Originally, meditations were more balanced in their approach... In full retreat, anywhere from nineteen to twenty-one hours per day are dedicated to the practice of ongoing awareness. The exotic exercises than many beings are so anxious to get into are really meant to be a capstone, to be placed on a background of established awareness. They are not a starting point but a tool with which to probe more deeply into the nature of mind." Both suitable dong(wai)gong and jing(nei)gong need to be practiced. Dong gong that opens the ren and du needs to be done along with sitting. Winn actually teaches methods learned from Frantzis to his students to do this, go figure. If you have qi, it will circulate it doesn't need you to move it. No qi, spin your yi in your body in any orbit you want, it won't really do much. These cover two of the issues at least, Of course, most of them! Contemporary authors who teach versions and different progressions of active MCO development? Simply hit the book stores pop-qigong authors and many 'healers' constantly repeat each other about this. Caveat emptor, beware original sources. It is understood differently in qigong*, Chinese medicine and Daoism, from what I have been expsosed to. Best, *qigong in this context refers to the myriad of practices that have sprung up out of the woodwork in China over the last 30-40 years.

Hi Has anyone trained in or know anything about his teachings? His credentials are certainly interesting. http://www.daoisttraditions.com/jeffrey%20yuen.html I've been listening to some lectures and reading some transcripts and would like to know more about him. Best,

Yes and No. The focusing on actively engaging with the MCO is NOT foundational to all Daoist practices. Though the opening of it is viewed as an important foundation. You do not have to focus upon the MCO to open it or benefit from it's circulation. There is more than one way to skin a cat. So it really depends on the lineage. Best,

Thanks for the info hahaha Mainly ones on Chinese medicine rather than Daoism. Primarily lectures on the different channels systems, the concept of the "healer within", and the perspective of Chinese medicine within medicine. You can get a lot here; http://www.conferencerecording.com/aaaListTapesByPresenter.asp?pid=5 I've also watched what I can find online, like; http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8022353004846770677 Best,

This one? http://www.power2u.org/downloads/TheRoleOfTheInternalArtsForHealthWellnessAndRecovery.pdf I posted it in this thread. http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/21933-beginners-question/page__hl__frank%20allen Best,

You're welcome, glad it was helpful. Quanzhen (Complete Reality) is a syncretic tradition as Walker lays out. Dragon Gate is a part of Quanzhen (the info I gave you is all from Quanzhen sources). The Baiyun Guan temple is well worth going to if you are interested in Daoism and in Beijing, I had a friend give me a tour of it and other temples in Beijing, highly recommended. Louis Komjathy recently released a good, but scholarly book 'Cultivating Perfection: Mysticism and Self-Transformation in Early Quanzhen Daoism' that is worth reading IMO (I checked the index though and no mention of Guan yin i'm afraid). The Chinese historically tend to absorb and seek a harmony between ideas rather than throw one out over another. But the movement and transformation of deities between cultures and regions creates a colourful rainbow of understanding, the place and importance of deities and how they are engaged with shifts from location to location. The "Hindu" deities in Nepalise shamanism for example are quite different and yet the same. Apparently one of the reasons Buddhism was accepted so easily by the Chinese 'Daoists' was simply because Laozi had disappeared into the West. So they figured the Indians had simply embraced Laozi as 'Buddha'. Don't ask me for a source on that, I read it recently and cannot recall where!. American Gods is a novel that was born out of a single idea that Gaiman had, simply "what happens to gods when people move from their home country taking their gods with them, and then forget them". Its an interesting book. Best,

First of all. If you want to work on Frantzis' stuff for a while to build a foundation, then do that. It is a complete system, as are other systems. In that it has all you need, it might just be presented in a different order. Don't compare it or do a bit of it and a bit of something else. The repsonses you are getting are great, but they are mostly not about Frantzis system, they are about things in general. That is fine, but be aware of why comments from outside a system sometimes help and sometimes hinder. This is true for ALL systems. So take them in context and you'll be fine. Bruce teaches physical whole body breathing, and subtle energy breathing. 1) Breath down the Zhongmai the central channel from baihui to huiyin, the lower dantian is on this line. It is A WAY into learning certain things, not the only way, other systems may do things differently. In Frantzis' system we breath down to and back from lower dantian through the zhongmai. The lower dantian is NOT confined to a physical location within the body. And MANY different systems have located it in various places. Today in our blend everything together way, we think the three dantian model is correct and the only way. Stick with the theory of the system you are using. 2) Take it slow and easy, remember 70%. That applies to all things, if it is too intense you will build a resistance to it even subconsiously. You will then have to fight this and waste energy everytime you practice. It sound like you are beginning to experience the lower dantian. 3) Stay in your body throughout, maintain presence. Slowly bring yourself back to the room at large. sit quietly and allow your qi to settle and be calm, the yin returning to dantian. Brush down both the physical and energetic body if need be to help settle the qi back to dantian. Just sit and be quiet, no special breathing etc. Slowly open your eyes, get up and walk calmly. Add any self tuina if needed for any areas where qi may get stuck If you do 10 minutes breathing practice, then do your outward dissolving afterwards. This can be done sitting. Bruce prefers to teach it standing as that is where it is most effective, especially for martial arts. but sitting is fine 4) For Frantzis' system. Opening the energy gates and Tao of letting go, the cd set on breathing goes through more of the subtle as well as the physical breath and is very good. The article by Frank Allen in this pdf from some years ago that helps outline Frantzis system and the dissolving process http://www.power2u.org/downloads/TheRoleOfTheInternalArtsForHealthWellnessAndRecovery.pdf Read also Huai Nan-Chin's Tao and longevity. Personally I'd forget Yang Jwing-Mings book. I have several and I think he translates things well. But it will confuse you if your aim is to understand Frantzis' system. Get your head around one way first, then read about another. Hope this helps, Exactly.

I know this thread is old(ish), but hey I only found it the other day The blog post link is worth reading. It explains, as Ya Mu has been arguing that Daoists experience the Earth as an entity to be inter-acted with same as any other 'person'. The "outer" dissolving process which is usually initially taught while standing, does NOT teach you to purge "sick" qi out of your body and dump it into the Earth! The blockages are dissolved OUTWARDS to the edges of the etheric/qi body in ALL directions. This energy is then reabsorbed as it is free of blockage and re-enters the system. The downward flow of qi within the body is responsible for clearing the system, same as physiological processes. To establish the safety wire, it is advised to begin from baihui and scan downwards to yongquan. This is the movement of the Yi, the blocked qi (when found) is still dissolved in ALL directions OUTWARDS to the edges of the etheric/qi body. Later you start from above the head and move to below the feet. This opens the physical body and the etheric body and enables greater flow and interaction between Earth qi, Tian qi and Human qi. It is NOT about dumping "sick" qi anywhere. Best,

For info; "Unfortunately mass misinformation about practices has risen to confusion in the world of energetics and medical qigong. There are some systems out there that say there is no such thing as sick qi. These practitioners are certainly deluded. We can SEE the sick qi leave a patients body when we project energy to displace it. Of course, if one doesn't have much energy to use (as some energetic systems don't actually cultivate qi) then the sick qi may be displaced but stay in the patient's body. Usually what happens here is that they will suddenly develop a pain elsewhere in the body." Ya Mu Taken from post#20 in; http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19103-stillness-movement-neigong-review/page__st__16 There is also a lot of information regarding "sick" qi in this thread; http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/19566-healing-and-energy-exchange/ Best

See the extract from Edith Turner, I first came across this when studying anthropology. It was shortly after my own initial experience and it was quite a shock to read such a lucid description of the same thing. Yes this is good news Good attitude to have. Yet sometimes learning to accept it rather than hold it as apart from ourselves can have an unusual effect on releasing. You have to go with your gut on it though. I'm glad the post was helpful. Hopefully he will be able to give you some guidance on how best to proceed. Good luck and all the best, let us know how you get on

When Bruce trained standing for six hours etc he was learning Taiji and Taikiken, so he would have used a variety of postures. He hadn't learned dissolving at that point. Zhan zhuang in martial arts is different to zhan zhuang in Daoist neigong. Best,

Hi, I am no expert. What you describe though sounds VERY similar to a load of black oozy sick qi I had pulled out of me. It came back and I am still working on clearing it. From my experience with this blockage, it is not like the "qi" blockages, or diminished qi flow due to tension that many are used to. I would be VERY wary of comments regarding how to deal with this. I would only listen to people with a genuine background and experience in helping others with this kind of blockage. Yamu is one who is on this forum, personally I'd pm him and get his advice. Best,

Have you seen the pictures of Ya mu and his teacher doing SM-Neigong? Best,

Anger and irritation can arise during meditation for several reasons. Here are some; Previously repressed emotions stored within and charging the myofascia (soft tissue) of the body, released and re-experienced as the body "lets go". Energetic or structural imbalances concerning the Liver qi. The liver qi relates to acting/doing, when this impulse is prevented it creates an irritation that can lead to ruminating and anger. Rebellious liver qi rises, and is commonly associated with states of anger and frustration. Energetic or structural imbalances elsewhere that manifests through the liver. The site or expression is not always the source. Try not to associate with the emotions when they arise, stay observer, do not repress or deny this will keep them stuck/embedded inside you. Do not seek them or their expression. Practice. If they arise, allow, observe, relax, dissolve, let go. If it is too strong, back off. A little, often within a comfort zone will release and not unbalance you. Yes you can, and some systems do, go for the short sharp shock and its gone approach. With a teacher in guidance maybe arguably valid in some circumstances, but it still shocks and traumatises the system, it is just viewed as the lesser of two evils. No teacher, mmm not a good idea. My personality is not drawn to the latter, though some I know are. The 2nd Ed of Opening the gates has A LOT of information. It can be overwhelming. The form is wu taji ji ben gong, the content Daoist neigong. Outer dissolving is taught standing because that is the most effective. But as Sloppy said, it can be done sitting or lying down. Do NOT worry about the breathing, it is not part of the neigong set and was simply added later to get that information also out because people asked for it. And as you've got previous experience I wouldn't worry about it anyway. Good luck, Best,

Bruce's dissolving processes do sound like what you are looking for. I second Sloppy in that. Personally, resources wise, I'd recommend the books 'Opening the energy gates'(personally I prefer the original edition) and 'Tao of letting go'. The first is the introduction to the outer and downward dissolving of neigong. The latter an introduction to the inner dissolving of meditation. 'Tao of letting go' is a far better book on Daoist water meditation than the two previous volumes, compiling and expanding upon the important aspects of those books. It is far less cluttered and confusing read. That said, A LOT of the content of Bruce's early books is available on his website as info on what he teaches. Reading that information may be enough to give you sufficient insight to begin to work with the practices. The energy body is the energy body, and it does what it does. The dissolving method is a laid out process, but in fact the energy body like to dissolve and expand, as well as flow downward. It is part of its natural process. As is the upward flow etc. Simply sit, breath, BE, relax tune in and LISTEN to the downward movement and natural expansion diffusion of the energy body. Water Method is NOT the only way to engage and deal with this process. Though it is an approach that specifically discusses and teaches a way to do so. Learning to scan though it and find and recgnise any blockages, and then what to do with them comes after. And is laid at well in the Water method. For example Stillness-Movement neigong (and Daoist zuowang in general) also certainly does this, but in a very different non-systematised way. Bruce has, on seminars, laid out the hows and whys that his tradition layers practices in the way that it does, rather than aims straight for zuowang. Hope this helps, Best,

If you are new to Yamu's teachings. My simple recommendation is to work on simply allowing, being, presence, and listening. Empty vessel. Don't worry about the external forms or having to memorise anything. The more you can Be present, the more you will feel and understand of Gift of the Tao and anything else done. The more you have that, you may be surprised what the body "remembers" later on even if your head doesn't. And don't worry about trying to swallow it all in one go : ) Yamu and some of his senior students are accessible after the fact if you have any queries, or go visit them again later on. In learning Gift of the Tao, while I could recall the different movements it took a while for me to sequence them properly, I took the advice of Kempomaster and in time it came together. Best,

Best,

Zuowang. The beginning and the end. Best,

Just a heads up, to maybe help Bums' save some pennies. Anyone thinking of coming to this workshop you have until THURSDAY 1st DECEMBER before the 'early bird' cost changes and goes up to full price. We still have places left. Additionally, if you are thinking of coming but planning on registering later, please just drop us a quick e-mail at [email protected] and let us know, so we can calculate for numbers. The Bum's have always been a good place of support for Yamu and his teachings, hope to see some new faces in January. Best,

Looking forward to this Two days of Stillness-Movement neigong, and optional Medical qigong training with Michael and his senior students!