寒月 Hanyue

As I was taught, there are inner door disciples, and ONLY ONE closed door disciple. The last disciple accepted as inner door is the closed door disciple, simply because the door is now closed. This is usually because the teacher/master is now too old to take on new disciples. The terms inner door and closed door get confused. But maybe there are systems that use the terms differently? Best,

Thanks for starting the thread Hundun, Very interesting indeed. I have to admit I took interest because as you say, you've high standards. I think this is important. What we bring, or where our Being is, when me engage with a lineage will very much influence what we get from it AT THAT time. Sometimes things come back around and then you go "OH!" Glad to hear some of what you've been experiencing with the lineage. Look forward to hearing more Best,

Different cultural perspectives are just that. Its why the concept of "culture shock" came about. The world-views underpinning the reasoning behind someone from another culture's actions are not always so clear and to ONLY view them from your own cultures ethics, morals, etc is limiting. Now are there people that take advantage? of course there are. Are there people who will use manipulation or hide behind such things of course there are. Is it really irritating!? yes. First I want to say that in every training group under a teacher I have been involved in, from martial arts, or qigong, to sports, and Somatic disciplines, a hierarchy occurs. There are the students closest to the teacher, usually longer standing ones but not always. Then there are the students who simply come regularly, and those that come semi-regularly and then new drop ins. They are each taught and treated differently, regardless of paying the same money and attending the same training. They may not come up with or use grades and fancy names and titles. But stay with the group long enough and be observant and you will see this. So the "system" doesn't bother me, because I see it everywhere simply in natural group dynamics. Abuse, confusing, lying to and manipulation of students by teachers, yes that bothers me! Especially if they use religion or culture to do it. The teacher-student relationship of Chinese arts is primarily based upon the Confucian family hierarchy system. As is the Japanese Koryu. It is NOT a model of education, and in fact the layers of student, inner door disciple etc have more to do with a great many things other than simply learning the art. Some disciples will have never even taken a lesson in the art, they will however have pledged an oath to the teacher and taken on a responsibility regarding helping to sustain and maintain the lineage. Discipleship is not about learning the "secret" techniques, so much as it is about acceptance into a 'family' and accepting the wider implications and responsibilities of that. Many do NOT want to do this and prefer to remain a student. As far as the art itself goes, for those that are training. In my experience all that happens is the basics are emphasised and really drilled into them, rather than simply letting chase after the seemingly more important aspects of the system (gong before forms etc). Yes some teachers abuse this system, others do not, some students abuse this system, others do not. In the West in modern times we have a different education model and concepts of teacher and their relationship to students. Does this get abused? Of course it does. I hear your frustration, especially if someone drags you through the bushes and back. I'm sorry to hear you've been on the negative receiving end. Can't have been pleasant to put in so much time and money and be left feeling out in the rain. Best,

Mike, you know I never really understood why you felt like you did about this kind of stuff. Man, I don't know why you put up with it. Thanks for your troubles. Mods, thanks for the intervention. Stirling job. Without wanting to out him (quite a few on this board have met him in person already). Some people in this internet "look at me, look at me I'm important!! no I am, really, please look at me!" age, seem to not appreciate that not everyone wants to be all in everyone's face, and do not appreciate the reasons behind why some people still stick their neck out. Best, Edited to reflect the removal of copyrighted photos in a previous post

Just for clarification purposes. Is this thread discussing the origin/history of 'Taiji' or Taijiquan? Related but separate things no? Best,

Well that's one way to look at it! ha ha : ) I see where you are coming from. Yet the concept of Dao is not strictly "Daoist", as in that it comes from or originates from Daoism. The idea of dao came first (and is NOT the same as the idea of Dao later espoused by Daoists) and is used in many ways in Chinese thought. Confucianism is also about dao (rendao), yet their conceptualisation, elucidation and use of 'the wayof it is not the same. Daoism came about due to a particular bent on what Dao was and how to engage with it, in time this became known as Daoism. So you could call what was before it maybe proto-Daoism : ) This is how ideas shift and change in time, and are developed in different modes of thought. If you are interested look into it, if not don't. Everyone is of course free to pursue what interests them. As I said there are a myriad of ways of teasing out apsects of Chinese history and 'history' is subjective at best, even if informed opinion. I try to weigh internal lineage history against external academic history, both have value and are often engaged with for very different things as they both have a very real yet very different agenda. Exactly. The heart of it doesn't change. Where it came from or what it was 400 years ago doesn't change what it is today and what it can be or do for people. Best,

Hehe, I did say people don't like it It is interesting to note just how much a notion about the past can so easily be added into the collective understanding of people, even when it has no validation whatsoever. Take the example of the idea that people in medieval times thought the earth was flat!! No. There was a martial art, the physical art can be traced back to Chen Wang Ting, a general during the later years of the Ming Dynasty. The "strategy" that can be understood to underpin this 'quan' can be traced back further. The daoyin and the aspects of that and the hows and why that different daoyin practices were used by Daoists or anyone else were developed separately. Taijiquan, the shape of it and the movement of is martial. There are much easier ways to daoyin the body. ?Can't comment No, its entirely Chinese. And given that the physical basis for the development of Taijiquan comes out of other styles that are generally regarded as Buddhist, well?? Look into it. Jesus wasn't christian either you know. Many of the ideas and concepts regarded by a lot of people today as Daoism, are simply Chinese ideas. Hence they appear within Daoist thought, and Confucian thought, and later Chinese Buddhist thought. The Chinese tend not to throw things away, or even use the Western philosophical notion of thesis-antithesis-synthesis. Instead they opt for syncretism. Just because the Daoists took something, developed and ran with it, doesn't mean its Daoist. It means it can be used to understand the Dao, which is what they were bust trying to do no? Everything has a source that reaches back before it existed. Oral tradition exists before written. That is why I said, "generally", because generally Laozi is considered the staring point of Daoism. But you cannot retcon (to borrow a term from fiction writing) everything from before to having been considered Daoist at that time, simply because Daoism is ONE of the things that developed centuries later!! sorry it doesn't work that way my friend Um, are you listening? Yes because they are basic to Chinese thought and cosmology. The same basic thought and cosmology that was expounded upon by Confucius and became Confucianism, and the same basic thought that was expounded upon by Laozi and became Daoism. You don't have to believe me, I don't care what you think or believe. But any basic reading into legit sources on Chinese history, culture and philosophy will explain this. Good luck to you on your path, Best,

This is basically what I understand too. The bagua walking is also debated but is not as muddy a water as Taijiquan's "origins". It has been mentioned before, but it does seem to upset people. We should bear in mind that 'history is subjective' and can only ever be informed opinion at best. So, Mmm, here is what I understand. The idea of 'taiji' comes from the Yi jing. Which, as we know, pre-dates "Daoism" as an entity (this generally being regarded Lao Zi and after). On a side note there are older versions of the 'gua' (tri-grams) used in the Yi jing found elsewhere in Asia/Mongolia and evidence they were imported and assimilated and then expounded upon by the Chinese. The origins of the martial art that later became referred to as Taijiquan, is still a highly debated area. Lets be clear, we know it was not originally called taijiquan, this name came only later (earlier names being; 沾拳 zhan quan "touch boxing", 绵拳 mian quan "soft boxing", 十三式 shi san shi "the thirteen postures" ).Yet there appears to be no historical indication that it emerged from Daoism. Like the development of the arts, martial and otherwise practised at the Shaolin monastery, methods change and evolve through interaction with other practices. It was only later on that some also training in Daoism and practices like Daoyin found the art to be a good vehicle/container for it. Why? Because it was, as everything from house location, carpentry etc was based upon the same fundamental cosmology which includes wuji-taiji-liangyi-sixiang-bagua etc. Which is Chinese, not Daoist. The fact that at some point someone decided to choose the name Taijiquan to represent their 'quan'in reference to the older concepts laid out in texts like the Yi Jing, Lao zi etc is a basic Chinese way of thinking and showing respect for the past and humblness. Please do not misunderstand me, Taijiquan CAN be Daoist. As can drinking tea. Not because it is called "taiji" and "taiji" is Daoist. But it becomes Daoist when Daoists engage with it and make use of it and infuse their practice of the Dao with it. Though this does not make it Daoist in origin. I know Daoists who make use of electricity! I'll give a modern example. Chen style never claimed Daoist origins, Yang style which is generally considered to have come from Chen does. Yet no meditation tradition was taught 'within' the taiji, although some practised forms of meditation along with their taijiquan and explained the from using Daoist writings. Wu Jien Quan the son of its founder was a Daoist and this "informed" his taijiquan and he infused his form with aspects of his Daoist meditation. But he did not teach the Daoist meditation that was a part of 'his' personal form. Liu Hung Chieh studied with Wu and so was exposed to this "Daoist taiji", but it was only later once he had fully learned a Daoist tradition elsewhere that he infused his Wu style form with the internal Daoist aspects. Taijiquan has been and can be used by those following the Dao, as can many things. It is telling to note, that most throughout history that are interested in spiritual matters often infuse physical activities with 'inner' work and meditation. Yet for the most part these physical activities are kept simple, and are not grossly sophisticated movement arts. I think it is obvious why. Walking is commonly used within classical martial arts, Sufi, Buddhist, Daoist and many other cultivation paths but it is not 'from' them. There is what we are trying to learn and there is what we use to learn it and they are not always the same thing. This at least is how I've come to view these things, Best,

The Daoist priest Liu Hung Chieh said you "should give them what they want, not what they need. Maybe they'll have a happy accident and realise what they need". I'm going to be straight forward, I hope it is of help, if not no worries All the "entry-level" books I've read on Daoism aren't worth reading, they cause far more confusion than they do help and easily create mis-understanding. I have seen this time and again, and certainly fallen flat on my face as well, only to be sorted out by a teacher. If you are interested in reading Chinese and Daoist philosophy be aware that unlike Western philosophy, which has an intellectual as well as pragmatic side, Chinese and Daoist thought does not, not really. It is pragmatic. That means it is embodied knowledge. Which is embedded in a Dao. Be aware that; Internal martial arts Qigong/neigong/daoyin Chinese medicine Meditation Are NOT the same thing. They are related by a long standing Chinese cosmology yes, but they ARE different. Some people do some or even all of these and learn or are taught to 'see' connections etc. Know what you want to learn and go to where you can learn it and do your best not to be sidetracked. In time things can change, allow this. A Dao is best learned from someone. Be prepared to travel. Don't worry if that can't happen straight away. If you want to read and get 'background'. Two pieces of advice. One, go to original sources and engage with them. Appreciate every translation and someones pontifications in a "commentary" are coloured by their perspective. They are NOT the thing itself, sometimes they help sometimes they do not. Two, appreciate that it won't make sense to you straight away. Its not meant to. Meaning and understanding is meant to be teased out from the words (ideally with the practice and guidance of a teacher). This process is in itself the Dao (path). Practices? If your interest is Daosim start with Zuowang, end with Zuowang. Anything else (daoyin/neigong/waigong/neidan/waidan etc) is done to deepen Zuowang. Google it and find some articles that should help you begin until you can find a teacher. All the best,

ok so my penneth worth. Basically the above three are discussing three separate but related things. "Storing" qi is NOT the same as "packing" qi, as far as I understand from what I have been taught. This should be clarified as it seems this has been confused. A certain well known and extremely prolific qigong author provided a definition and understanding of "packing" qi to the West that is not truly representative of the practice. The Chinese character means to create space so more can enter. This has a different feel to the English word to 'pack' which has the sense of to condense and squeeze in. As a result the idea of "packing" qi within qigong circles in the West has often led to incorrect and harmful practice as people think they have to force/contract/squeeze qi in to channels, cavities, dan's etc. The character for store is again different (I have seen different ones used in different systems), and storing qi in the dantian is different to trying to "pack" qi anywhere. I have been taught methods that use aspects more associated with "packing" during the process of "storing" qi, and I have been taught methods that store with no sense of "packing" at all so to speak. As for dantian rotation, I would say where is the attainment if these things are already rotating? The taiji symbolises the realisation of what was naturally happening and getting out of the way of that. The movement of qi in the dantian and the storage of qi through the dantian are again related but not mutually exlcusive. It is not a case of either or, it is a case of when is appropriate. The taiji is a clue. My experience with this is limited and my thoughts those only of a beginner. It seems to me that the reasoning behind and the function of non-breathing and pressurising the abdomen is confusing and mis-leading. I think the emphasis on natural breathing before such practices is a wise progression indeed. Listening is indeed worthwhile. Best regards,

That always bugged me about that book too. Johnson certainly likes to appropriate illustrations for his medical qigong books. But to use Master Feng's qigong labelled as medical qigong prescriptions, using drawings based on Master Feng and then not provide a credit or even bibliographical reference at all is, well.....

Just to be clear the fengshui pics I have posted are as an example of the types of circular diagrams found in Chinese thought, they were simply easily found when I posted. I am also NOT saying the diagram in the video is a fengshui compass (it might be, but as it is too blurry I can't read it to know). Nac, if you have a question you should ask it, simple Then you might get an answer that you can investigate etc. Esoteric Daoist sects and Feng shui is where I have seen these diagrams most often, but as I originally said they DO appear spontaneously within meditation (which is somethign else entirely and not the same as trying to memorise such things). Best,

The video is not clear, I am not pretending to know what the diagram on the video is! The Chinese like correspondences, they like spirals and circles, there are MANY diagrams that depict VARIOUS correspondences using a circular format. I mentioned some of the common ones, I am not saying that is specifically what THAT diagram depicts. There are lots of these types of diagrams, just do some research. Rings? er OK They spin. Best,

It is a diagram of the many correspondences (earthly branches, heavenly stems, bagua etc), and their interconnections. Different sects use them for different things, can't say I know what that particular one is used for. They can appear within meditation spontaneously. Best,

TCM, gigong, and neidan often refer to different paths for the chongmai "thrusting/penetrating" vessel. There are variations, depending upon the lineage, on the paths of the four primary qi jing ba mai (8 extra-ordinary vessels) found in the torso. These variations of the ren, du, dai, and chong mai appear to grow out of the tradition and the use of them. TCM focuses upon acupuncture and so its approach to these vessels is bound to that perspective and the ability to "needle" to effect channels. Qigong and neidan obviously has a different focus and perspective. The neidan "chong" mai is also called "zhong" mai or the central channel, some have it go from huiyin to baihui, others have it stop at the heart etc. The TCM chongmai follows an altogether different route according to most sources and yet there still remains variation, in both the historical record and todays texts. Best,

Hi Hundun Can I ask why? Is it his teachings, approach, manner? Have you had the chance to see him in Beijing? Best,

I'm fine thank you Life is hectic at the moment, will see how long it lasts I am going to clarify something for those that may read my posts, just in case. When I mention neigong above, I am referring to the body-mind (jinggong) aspect of practice where, more often than not, Dao Yin has been crossed with wugong (martial training). I am NOT referring to the energetic aspect or depths found in true neigong. Neigong is jinggong, qigong, shengong. Feldenkrais and somatics cross over with jinggong but rarely if ever go deeper as that is not the reasons for the methods. Best,

Hanna's "cat stretch" routine is designed to reduce and undo the sensory motor amnesia and trauma ('dead' areas) of the body from the core out. To do this it focuses upon re-establishing the natural movements of a 'Soma' or living organism/body, which come from the spine. So each of the lessons that reduce into the "cat stretch" work the deep tissues of the core and free the spine in its natural three dimensional movement. Yes, there are "neigong" approaches that do this to and much overlap, but there are also differences, it really depends upon the lineage/tradition/system. The 'Heart' is the same in my experience. In my understanding SM could be considered 'automatic' somatics, where the body works through this process without the need for a lesson plan or external direction. Additionally, a good friend of mine who is a student of traditional kundalini yoga was taught by his lineage teacher swami dev murti ji a series of exercises called "crocodile exercises" and some of these are virtually the same as the lessons Hanna emphasised as foundational in his Somatics method. The differences occur from why the people practicing the methods are practicing them. Yes, good neigong and good feldenkrais or somatics are closer more than they are apart. Feldenkrais called the solo work 'Awareness through movement', the basis is very similar to the concept of xingyi, it is about how internal awareness/intent manifests as external shapes or movement. Feldenkrais developed his method based upon much of his experience of judo* and jujutsu. The Daoists tried to understand and work with the body, qi and shen, we are trying to understand and work with the body, qi and shen. Any method that puts direct personal experience first is going to overlap with others that do the same, because all we have to experience is our body, qi and shen. Franklin calls this "experiential anatomy", interesting concept. Best, * When I say Judo, I do not mean modern sport Judo.

Hanna's concept of 'Sensory-motor amnesia'(SMA) was a big help to me, I still think it is fundamental, and applicable beyond sensory-motor re-education. The same concept can be used to understand the emotions and mind too. These days I find SMA to have much cross-over with sick qi/stagnant qi although the two are not completely the same. Best, P.S. Thanks for the links and resources

Daniel Reid knew him and edited his travel diaries together into a publishable form after his death. If you are contacting publishers/authors he might be worth trying. http://www.danreid.org/daniel-reid-articles-john-blofeld-the-wheel-of-life.asp Hope it helps. Best,

Yes, inner (somatic*)experience over simply moving the body around. While I had teachers trying to get me to understand this, IIRC it was either Ralston's or one of Daniel Odier's books that put it in a way that finally made it click. I could post a picture of a posture but the important bit of what is happening inside and how the posture is being used is not overtly evident. And in fact most postures can be used in different ways anyway (which is why I think context is important, and don't get the arguments over the 'correct' way). SM is a powerful way to engage with the present and allowing. Anything else should really feed back into that. The free lessons on flowingbody are an awesome resource. All the best, *Somatic in Thomas Hanna's recovered definition of "living body experienced from within" rather than dead body observed from without.

OK. Things are on a spectrum, but its not linear or polar in nature. The hardest thing is genuinely listening to yourself and "knowing" what is best. Teachers happily give ingredients, it is always the recipe that is guarded. Teachers are a help to us because we are often blind to what we need, and tend to focus on what we want. Somatic (re)education should lead to somatic conditioning simply through increases in intensity/sophistication. Condition too early and you simply reinforce what you want to release out of the body-mind. So, an important but often over-looked point first. You want to pay attention to changing the relationship not the shape of the body. Moving the limbs or joints about without the tissues releasing, opening etc does you not good what so ever. Bending into pretzels is not as good as hardly moving but releasing and opening the joints and tissues. There is conscious and unconscious practice. The difference? conscious practice should really be prescriptive and tailored to fit a percieved need/deficit. Meaning you need to be able to recognise these and select appropriate exercises. Tension or tightness in the body can be a result of many things, it is not simply a case of, this area is tight I'll stretch it. Unconcious is when you step out of the way and allow the body to do what it needs to do. There is no "diagnosis". Seitai's Katsugen undou Seikijutsu Jingdong gong Yigong Kriyayoga Are all examples of unconscious methods, they have their differences too of course. I am not going to go into this here. Deep relaxation-shaking-mobilty go together. Joint mobility. The best and most easily accessible resource is the Feldenkrais Method and its off shoots. I don't recommend Feldenkrais' books as a starting place, the guy was a genius but struggled to express himself well. There are lots of lessons here http://www.flowingbody.com/ which gives the 'what', Check out easy to get hold of books like 'Awareness Heals' to get an understanding of the 'how'. I also recommend 'Zen-Body Being' by Peter Ralston, not Feldenkrais but well worth reading. Relaxation. Look up Progressive Muscle Relaxation (PMR), the same method is taught in China as "Fang song gong". Some schools of neigong go straight to the higher levels of PMR (ie using the awareness to directly release bound tension without specifically contracting the muscles), see what works for you. Shaking (concsious/volitional). Basic, stand in a natural posture feet under your pelvis (not shoulder width), gently begin to bounce up and down. Feel for the spring in the joints. Feek for the tension in the tissues. What moves what does not. Allow the bones to send vibrations through the soft tissues. It is not about vigor, it is about how easily vibration can travel through the soft tissue. Find the natural rhythm to relase any tension. To begin with the body will be a load of parts shaking, in time it can become one rhythm. 20-45 minutes. All of the above is taught within decent wu (martial) neigong though is usually deeper and more nuanced. When done with the yin perspective it is a potent way to fix the body. But it is harder to learn. I know of no resources that really explain chang jin gong (tissue lengthening), kaihe gong (open/close "pulsing"), chan si gong ("spiraling") which are practices that go deeper than most do with Feldenkrais (though some may fall into aspects of these while doing Feldenkrais if they keep going with it). These really need to be learned from a teacher. Some of my teachers have explained the theory much more than others, it is primarily taught through feeling and being shown. I have come to the understanding I have from what I have been taught, self experimentation and research, which is an ongoing process guided by instruction. Some basic starter points. The three main layers of the body are bone (gu), soft tissue (jin), and skin (pi). Training to be aware of these and how they relate is important (different traditions use different practices to train them in different ways, it depends on why you are doing what you are doing). Tissue lengthening, begin to forget about specific muscles and pay attention to the sensation of the tissues sliding, of all the muscle filaments sliding into each other or sliding apart. Feel this rather than hard contraction. Pulsing, begin with "pulsing palms" this should be done by overtly opening and closing the whole hand from the laogong point, paying attention to what is moving and what is not, and slowly reducing the movement while MAINTAINING the same sensation in the palm, so it pulses but is not overtly moving. Play with this then take this experience and see if you can apply it to other joints. I am not going to get into chan si gong. Hope this helps, Best

What would you like to know? I said 'Chinese practices' to simply avoid many of the preconceptions that become associated with the common terms, and I am referring to a spectrum. So it is a very open and broadly interpretable question Let me know what your interest is in and I can save myself writing an essay on something off the mark by mistake Best,

+1 They are great. Aspects of some neigong teach methods where you basically do this to yourself, I have felt the skull plates being pulsed by my teacher and it is quite extraordinary. But someone that can help balance this out for you to help you on your way is well worth finding. Best,

Mmm, Well it seems Kohn varies her opinions given what I have read of hers. There is also much debate over the interpretation of the historical information available over just which ways Buddhist and Daoist practices influenced each other. Zuowang was around before the eight century and is mentioned in the Zhuang Zi (4thBCE?)(scholars like to think something doesn't exist until it appears explicitly in texts??), is Daoist and at some point later on there was a kind of cross pollination with vipassana/samatha practices. I say cross pollination because scholars are undecided (meaning there is no clear evidence either way) of just in which ways they influenced each other. What emerged from this meeting of Daosit and Buddhist practices was Ch'an, specifically zuoch'an (the focus upon the lower abdomen is considered a Daoist influence on this Buddhist practice). And in the Neidan circles, it was neiguan/neishigong. Neiguan being a term to reflect the term vipassana. Yet it is unclear just how far the influence went, was it simply an adoption of name layered onto zuowang practices? or adoption of vipassana practices altered slightly by zuowang/Daoist ideas? There are many well crafted arguments for various interpretations of the interactions of these practices, regarding when, why and what influenced what. But nothing that is concrete or absolute. So all we can know is that they influenced each other, and each appears in various guises within different lineages anyway, with some appearing closer than others. Of course while zuoch'an is not the sole Ch'an Buddhist practice, neither is neiguan the sole neidan practice, vipassana the sole Buddhist practice, nor zuowang the sole Daoist practice. So the uses and experiences of each are always going to be coloured by adepts involvement in others practices/dicsciplines and the underlying reasons for the practices as laid out by the lineage they are immersed within. That is my understanding anyway, best,