寒月 Hanyue

"Shamanism" is a fairly modern Western academic construct used to simplify the study of indigenous beliefs and practices. What is actually lumped in under the term is still hotly debated. None of the belief systems woudl be classified as 'Religion' as that term is used to understand the institutions usually referred to with that term. It is arguably preferable to understand animist (see the recovered definition used by Hallowell, Harvey, Bird-David rather than the 'colonialist' Tylor one) belief systems on their own terms rather than impose an external structure on them. For example, shamans would be animist, but not all animists are shamans. Even in those countries where "shamanism" is actually a viably used term it is still only one part of the system of beliefs and the practices and not the whole picture. So referring to it as the religion of those people is incorrect on too many levels. As for concrete proof of ancient religion, good luck Best,

Does no one else find it ironic that the reason a group of practitioners was brought together to synthesize a standard and give it a name was to make it less confusing when opened out to the public at large?? The name they came up with, "qigong" Best,

My apologies, please as you were Best,

This is one of the main differences of the practices that were part of a tradition, and the derived versions that were promoted for health by the Peoples republic in 1949. For example, awareness and observation of breathing (as a natural and rythmical physiological process (others can and are used for the same reasons))as a vehicle for awakening presence and deepening consciousness is not the same as practicising breathing methods/patterns. This whole breathing, no breathing is daft. If you are alive you are breathing. No one is arguing that qigong does not involve breathing (even embyronic breathing is breathing). That is like saying qigong does not involve the body. Yes you can debate to the extent that is it involved, and in which ways it is engaged with or even the reasons as to why. But if you have it, it is involved. The point is whether or not you are focused upon it or specifically trying to do something with it and why. The definition that qigong equals breathing methods, and practices that do not focus upon CONSCIOUSLY controlling the breath are not qigong is preposterous, simply because the term qigong was adopted in 1949 to be a catch all term for ALL of the various religious cultivation, health preservation, and martial training methods. Best,

Dawei, you should be commended for your posts, efforts, and approach to this thread. All the best,

Fair enough. I'll talk to my friends and see if anyone knows. Best,

If what you mean is that cultivation practices that do not intentionally focus upon and work upon the breath are not "qigong", then this is simply incorrect. If for no other reason than the explanations given by the group who came up with using the term "qigong" to refer to all the different cultivation practices in the first place. And how does anyone do anything without breathing anyway? let alone qigong? I'm just kidding. I know what you intended to say Qigong along with medicine in China has been going through a massive re-interpretation with re-definition of the terms associated with it for the last 50 years. Nothing wrong with it, but it should be acknowledged, and it is easy checkable by anyone who wants to bother looking into it. Meanings change, definitions change, why? because context changes. For every respected teacher that can be quoted using one definition, you will find others using another, and some that use several depending on the when/who/what in the present when they speak. Given that copyright issues in China are virtually non-existant, authors on qigong and Chinese medicine frequently not only copy each other but actually copy and paste text directly from each others books. This means that a lot of what is published, even texts with official party sanction, end up repeating the same without ever checking the veracity of the information. This comes from people I know who work in China within the publishing industry. Yes there are many mis-conceptions regarding "qigong", as this thread is proving, but everyone wants to only accept the understanding that they currently have. I have had my understanding and definitions of what I thought I knew shattered several times by high level teachers. These days, I listen to their explanations and definitions, and try not to have any of my own so much. Maybe when I am older and have much much more experience I will have come to my own "definitions". In the meantime I will work on the experiences that take me there and not worry about specific definitions that will limit the possibilities of experience that comes from cultivation. Best,

Glad my post meets your approval Yes, this is partly my point. In Chinese both meanings are implied by the characters, they are inherently there within the term. In English, depending on which words are used to convey part of the meaning it can create a difference in understanding and meaning. Er, can you explain why the second definition is only applied to scholastic achievements and is not relevant to [qi]gong? Best,

Well just to throw some more into the mix 功 gong is often translated as 'work', 'effort', meaning work or effort over time. This gives the implication that qigong is a method that works with qi. If your definition of qi is 'breath' this would imply a breathing method, or working with the breath/breathing. But gong (as any Chinese word) doesn't translate so easily or simply into English. It means [good]result, achievement, accomplishment, just as much. This presents (in English) a different view, now qigong is about the achievement/accomplishment relating to qi. Staying with the definition of qi as 'breath' this no longer implies working with the breath or a breathing method. Instead it is more a recognition of good and efficient breathing. Here there is nothing that adheres this development to specifically working with the breath, just that the practices undertaken result in improved and more efficient breathing. The first view means qigong is all about breathing, the second does not. Even if the definition of qi is the same, all that is changed is the understanding (in English) of the variances of meaning of gong. Looking at the possibilities of understanding from the different meanings of the terms can be interesting. And some teachers use this as a way of passing on teachings. But ultimately definitions need and rely upon context, no context, or taken out of context and the meaning falls apart. There has never been a singularly accepted definition of these cultivation terms in China, reading the past texts of Daoism, Buddhism, and the medical tradition makes that clear. As well as looking at the development of the characters themselves. Best,

Roger Jahnke's 10 phases of Qi. Any thoughts on this? Best, "[Q]igong...can be categorized into the ten phases of cultivating and mastering qi, as outlined by Dr. Roger Jahnke, OMD, in his book, The Healing Promise of Qi. Many people spend years or lifetimes ignoring and depleting their qi supply, like neglecting an empty, fallow garden. To grow a healthy garden involves clearing, planting, tending, harvesting, and storing. Your qigong practice can help with clearing away old habits and blockages, planting and growing the seed of qi within us, harvesting and moving the qi throughout the body, and storing qi for times when we most need it. Jahnke's ten phases of qi are organized into three sections: Earth, HeartMind, and Heaven. Earth - Medicine for the Body Phase 1 - Discover Qi: Simply becoming aware that qi exists. Observing qi in the self by bringing awareness within and discovering subtle sensations, such as warmth, tingling, flow, expansion, vibration, magnetism, bliss, energy levels, attitudes, and emotions. Observing qi in others by noticing how others make you feel or how you feel when entering a building or room. Observing qi in nature by acknowledging the cycles and instincts of animal and plant life. Phase 2 - Gather Qi: Soaking in the qi with very little effort by opening the posture, the breath, and the mind. Qi can be gathered from food, air, nature, the cosmos, the breath, acupressure points, even the skin. Phase 3 - Circulate Qi: Qi can be distributed through the body in two ways - passively or actively. Passive circulation, through meditation, is an allowing rather than a doing. The qi flows like water in its natural state, if not blocked or constricted. Meditation allows the qi to flow on its own, if we step out of the way. Active circulation, through qigong, uses intention and movement to distribute the qi around the body and energy field. HeartMind - Medicine for the Mind and Emotions Phase 4 - Purify Qi: The qi is cleansed when stale qi is released through the energy centers and channels, acu-points, breath, and skin. Qi can also be cleansed through herbs, acupuncture, massage, or by gathering fresh qi to displace the old. Qi can be purified through a dynamic focus, using movement, breathing, and sound. Or qi can be purified through a quiescent focus, using mind focus, meditation, mental mantras, or the release of blocked emotions. Phase 5 - Direct Qi: If qi is in a balanced state, there is little need for direction of qi. However, in a state of imbalance, the mind can be used to re-balance the qi through will. Also, qi can be directed through the breath, massage, touch, acupressure, Reiki, movement, magnets, herbs, etc. Qi can also be directed toward others for healing. Phase 6 - Conserve Qi: By its nature, qi automatically collects and circulates. However, daily life and every activity and bodily function uses qi. So throughout each day, a mental intention should be used to conserve qi, by avoiding bad habits, over-indulgences, excess, and stress. Emotions such as fear, worry, anger, guilt, and grief can deplete qi. Constant attention to balancing yin and yang will help to conserve qi. Heaven - Medicine for the Spirit Phase 7 - Store Qi: Qi is stored in the central channel, the twelve organ meridians, the eight extraordinary channels, the organs themselves, the three dantians, the bone marrow, and the nervous system. Phase 7 moves into the advanced stages of qigong, requiring personal discovery through practice. Once the Earth and HeartMind phases are mastered, there is less to do, and more to allow. Storing qi is more about intention than action, and allowing qi to find deep yin storage, as in the marrow. Phase 8 - Transform Qi: At this stage, we are now a vessel of highly refined qi ready for internal alchemy. The local self is healed and conscious awareness expands. This phase cannot be done, but can only unfold by being. Internal alchemy involves the heating and firing of qi, refining it into a potent essence to become a Golden Elixir. The practitioner moves toward an enlightened self. Phase 9 - Dissolve in Qi: To dissolve in qi is to open to your ultimate nature, merging with Dao. At this stage, the practitioner sustains direct connection with Spirit at every moment. Phase 10 - Transmit Qi: Beyond healing and awakening of the self, transmitting qi to heal others with compassion is the next step. At this highly advanced stage, the practitioner projects qi naturally as it radiates from the self. Qi can also be intentionally directed by maintaining a relaxed focus on healing others. The practitioner can be a channel through which the qi flows and can also organize others' qi by their own harmony. Qi can be directly applied through the hands or across great distances. Healing comes when those receiving the qi are ready to heal themselves through intention and lifestyle adjustments." [Edited for formatting reasons] [Edite: Finally figured out how to change the title of the thread to make Cheya and Hundun happy ] Healing Promise of Qi (study guide).pdf

Yeah I get that, my bad if you know how I can change it I will but I can't see how to on this forum Ah, helpful, thank you. That makes a lot of sense. I have the book on order through my library, I read it years ago but don't remember it all that well. So I'll see what I get from reading it this time round. Your nature is your nature, which is about as Zhuang Zi as you can get. You can't be anything else Sometimes personalities just clash Fair enough, and I agree completely. Which in part is why I started the thread, if people found the ideas helpful or interesting then hopefully they'd check out the source and get a better understanding. None taken. The energy of your posts often literally feels like a slap round the face to me, but I'm slowly getting used to it I just sometimes forget and get surprised. Best,

No hijacking at all, will repsond properly later. Best,

Wow! always with the little digs huh . Sorry my posting skills do not live up to your approval . See my post above. As for the book explaining it all a lot more, well of course it does. I posted articles about the concept that are meant as an introduction and state where the material comes from, or do you think people should break copyright and just post his entire book to get feedback on his ideas ? I'm glad you like his book, the fact its your bible now actually makes a lot of your perspectice make more sense. Happy practice, Best

Well the posted article is the posted article I didn't write it And it does explain the full title in the article itself, so. If people actually read the article they should get it no? Thank you for the helpful and enlightening response about your use of Jahnke's work. I agree with you about purifying and circulation as the two seem the same to me. To circulate is to flush out the stagnant qi which purifies the channels etc. I have not delved deeply into Jahnke's work so I may just mis-understand his point Best,

Being biased is all good : ) Could you say in which ways you have found the model useful? Daily practice, long term practice? Thanks for the reply, best,

You've mis-understood. Go and re-read the post (or copy and paste it in this thread for clarification). 站桩 zhan zhuang literally means "stand(ing)" "post" and in one common understanding refers to the polarity nature of standing between heaven and earth. Today it has become a catch all term, like qigong has. There are many many ways to approach standing practices, health, energy, martial arts etc. "Standing" exercises are fundamentally different in energy based and health based systems as to martial arts. This is simply due to the aims/reasons for doing the practice. Stillness-Movement neigong includes standing, as well as the other 'modes' and beyond. The name zhan zhuang comes from martial arts (and was popularised by Wang Xiangzhai), and though there is debate about the origin, one of the better explanations is that it comes from the old practice of literally standing on poles to improve alignment and balance (see below for more). Over the years ideas change and expand. Generally in Chinese martial arts 桩功 zhuang gong can be understood as involving 站桩 (zhan zhuang)"standing 'post'", 坐桩 (zuo zhuang)"sitting 'post'", 行桩 (xing zhuang)"moving 'post'", and 卧桩 (wo zhuang)"lying 'post'". Not all systems use all of them and each has its own preference for how they are used and to what extent. For example the Bagua practice 走圈 "circle walking" is considered 行桩 xing zhuang "moving post" (sometimes also referred to as 動桩 dong zhuang), and as such zhan zhuang has less of an emphasis if it appears at all. It really comes down to where 桩 zhuang is initially trained. This is a very physical training. These gong are obviously based upon the general idea of 四德 (si de) the "four virtues" (standing, sitting, lying, moving). But there is also a fifth virtue related to being able to interact using any of the si de, which gives us 聽桩 (ting zhuang)"listening 'post'" (any push hands drills are ting zhuang). Use of the si de is not exclusive to the martial arts, but the way zhuang gong is trained is fundamentally different to qigong practices or Daoist neigong practices that also makes use of them. The fact that several martial art Masters have also learned Daoist neigong/qigong and have added that to zhuang gong often confuses this issue. I have not heard Ya Mu say you cannot practice martial arts and SM together, the advice is to put neigong over waigong (since that is the focus of SM). If you are after energetic development that has to be your focus, if you are after martial development that has to be your focus. Best, Apologies for the more 'academic' response, but hopefully you'll appreciate why. "Mei Hua Zhuang is an ancient school of Chinese boxing which existed as early as the Han dynasty (B.C.E. 206 - A.C.E. 221). Mei Hua Zhuang Wugong consists of : Jiazi, Ba Fang, Chengquan, Yingquan, Weapons and Qigong. The name Mei Hua Zhuang means "Plum Flower Stakes" as this style was originally practiced on the tops of over 100 stakes driven into the ground. Today, however, the style is practiced on the ground but maintains the same precise footwork as when practiced upon stakes. Students learning Mei Hua Zhuang begin first by learning the Jiazi or framework training set. This framework consists of static stances and moving steps. Each stance is held motionless for 3-5 breaths and so develops the strength and qi of the whole body. The moving steps are designed to develop fast, rapid and light footwork enabling the practitioner to move in all directions effortlessly. Unlike other forms of exercize like Tai jii or qi gong the jiazi does not intentionally manipulate the qi, but the spontaneous circulation of qi in the body obtained is a concept which permeates through meihuazhuang." (edited for brevity)

Lots of different traditions describe yinqi-yangqi differently. Remember yin and yang are relative concepts too, so something is yang in relation to something else. A candle is yang to an icecube, but yin to the sun. It does not surprise me you feel different things, that you can use yin and yang to understand, from breathing or alignment. But I wouldn't describe them personally as yinqi or yangqi. Just different sensations. Best,

I...I...no, you've lost me. Shame.

...

You do appreciate that mind is something else and not what is being discussed, yes?? Ok then, moving on Best,

No straight or clear answers on this I'm afraid. Xin 心 means heart-mind, it is who you truly are without any "dust", your true Being. This is why you get all the poetic descriptions of mirrors or still ponds reflecting the moon. The problem is when you have the distortions, these shift our perception and awareness. So everything is viewed through these distortions. I don't feel you can "look" for xin at the core of your self, this is why a teacher guides you. Not only can they confirm any experience you have, they can actually help you see past the distortions. A real teacher anyway. Xin is associated with your core of Being, traditionally located around the chest area and is related to the core of the central channel. But here is the kicker, it is not something to "chase" simply be aware of the idea, practice your cultivation and experience and allow. If your method is genuine and you practice things will happen, get feedback from your teacher when appropriate. And you will find your way in without delusion. If you chase it, and try to experience it you probably will, or will convince yourself you have anyway. If you diligently work on releasing all that is not you, then you will be left with only that which is you, that is your zhengxin 正心 true Being/Heart-mind. Best,

For those interested, see the events thread http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?/topic/2336-upcoming-events/page__pid__276438__st__112entry276438 Best,

Thank you for your kind word(s) Otis, they are appreciated. Best,

Hi Mal There are yin and yang approaches to this, so it really depends upon why YOUR body is lacking ROM in its joints and why certain tissues in your body are 'tight'. IMO learning to appreciate both the yin and the yang is best, and they can be most easily summarised as; yin: somatic re-education. Internal-external (releasing open the tissues/joints through releasing the nerves). yang: somatic conditioning. External-internal (engaging the soft tissues to change their 'condition'(ie elasticity/plasticity)). The yin is primarly concerned with the efficiency of the nervous system, and uses the soft tissues to engage with the CNS. The yang is primarily concerned with the condition of the soft tissues and uses the nervous system to transform that condition. Cooley's resistance stretching as well as the Russian sports science approach to stretching is yang. Feldenkrais, Hanna somatics, is yin. In reality it is not so much what is done as it is how it is done. Simplistically here the yang says "you must strengthen the muscles to improve flexibility because the body needs the security to allow that ROM", while the yin says "move gently and slowly and improve the efficiency of the firing of the muscles and the control of movement and the nerves will relax and allow greater freedom". Taken to a full conclusion both can end up at the same place, though most do not go that far. The main difference here is that "stretching" does not educate the synergistic aspects of the tissues in movement. It really is a supplementary form of training that should be prescriptive, and designed to aid deficiencies that are found within a movement pattern. Movement patterns should always come first. And it should be noted there are MANY ways to "stretch" even if the positions seen are the same. Always be aware of how you are patterning the sensory-motor system to function, so if you goal is taiji is your supplementary training trying to educate your nervous system to function in a different way? If it is you are fighting yourself in your own training. Qigong, taiji, neigong forms can all be done in both ways, either releasing open the tissues/joints/cavities etc or engaging them more actively to condition the body. If these are what you want to learn, my advice is to learn to use them to work with the body in the ways you need them to, anything else is supplementary at best. My two penneth, Best, P.S I am a fan of western somatic education approaches and the somatic conditioning approaches of the Russians. Interestingly though I started using these to inform my Chinese practices, as I dove further and met better teachers I found the Chinese practices do all of this and more. It is just not always so easy to see or find. I prefer movement over 'static' methods, though static methods can have their place.

I think my cousins friend met her dad once, I might be wrong, but I'm sure he mentioned this 'chee' stuff once.... Very interesting indeed. Best,