寒月 Hanyue

I do not have the time to write anything lengthy. But the gist was in my last post. My experience has been different to the implications suggested in your statements, and so I commented. The short of it is I have lost count of the times when I have been told either first hand or second hand (so either from the master/teacher themselves or a disciple (Japanese and Chinese)) about when someone came to check them out and decided to "verify" the teacher. Even if they were humbled and decided they wanted to study under the teacher they were often not taught openly. Sometimes they were even taught incorrectly, or fed ambiguous statements or largely ignored. So while it is fine to verify so to speak (and plenty of teachers do not mind, as it shows something in the student beyond simply passive acceptance), there is a way to do it and a way not to and the implications are about which doors you are closing or opening with that teacher. The reason I posted was simply I have heard far more accounts of this in the negative and hardly any that come out in the favour or those trying to "verify". Whether this is in fact different from your understanding or not I have no idea, but I felt your statements may mis-lead others who have less experience and my post was primarily for them rather than your re-education. So apologies if my post implied anything else. Best,

Actually 'obnoxious' is correct. 验师 yanshi is all too often grossly misunderstood by westerners who approach such things VERY differently. I have heard from Chinese teachers directly as well as from their disciples plenty of stories of disrespectful people (not just westerners) who do this, usually even if they hang on as a student they have closed the door to real teaching as the teacher is not interested in them after their conduct. I cannot say that your comment underlined above is correct from my experience at all. Your phrase... Is spot on. There is verifying and there is veryfying. Just my experience anyhoo. Best,

Ah, come on now. You know you're just telling porkies, he read it all in a book Hugs, SM

You're most welcome. All of my teachers constantly deal with misunderstanding. In fact all my fellow students do as well just from the other side. I continue to peel away layers and what I understand today is not what I understood last year. In part it is due to this that sometimes recognition of possible misunderstanding in others occurs, if I feel a nudge that I may be able to help I try to do so. Accepting that we don't know (embracing the mystery, the Dao), and as such need guidance is not always so easy. But that is why things things have been transmitted from heart to heart for centuries no? I still like the Japanese notion of taiden-shinden-kuden. The 'feeling', the 'shape', and the 'description'. Missing one of these three you only ever have part of the picture. It is why when kuden started to be written down in densho (written transmission) the writings were concise and vague. Best,

I only tend to post when I feel a nudge to do so, I have not long come home after having just received some teachings about 中 zhong (center) from a teacher of mine. And here we are, so... This is correct, but also a misunderstanding. Personal daily practice is a BIG KEY. Certainly without it the best teacher in the world, no matter the approach they use to pass on their art, will not get far. This is the 'effort' from the student. Transmission? Mmm, there are MANY forms of transmission. They are not all the same and they are done for different reasons. This has been discussed at length on this very forum so if you are unsure hit the search function. Are you sure you know what form of transmission Ya Mu uses in his teachings? Unless you've been to a workshop how can you say 'been there done that'? Any way, this is the 'effort' from the teacher. The cost of the workshops is the cost of the workshops, the fact that Ya Mu passes on his art in the way he does is just part of that. There is no workshop fee and then additional fees for "transmission". If the cost of the workshops puts you off, then it puts you off, we are lucky in this day and age to have the choice of which teachers we see. Sorry to hear that, good luck with whatever you choose to explore. Interesting perception. I appreciate you may feel my response is solely in defense of Ya Mu and may not read or accept what I write, that is your prerogative. My intention is simply to clear up misunderstanding. The practice is contained in the book. But the practice is often greatly mis-understood IMHO. If I listed the steps for daoist zuowang or Zen's shikantaza it would be short and sweet and concise and easy to understand. Yet the phrase "a three year old may be able to say it, but an eighty year old still cannot do it" comes to mind. People always assume and talk as though everyone comes to something from the same place of 'Being'. I mean we get this when it comes to physical things, it is easy to see why someone built one way would excel with minimal help at a physical endeavor and yet someone else built another way will need more help and time and maybe supplementary training. The same is with energetics and cultivation practices. So yes, some people can be given the steps and 'get it' and no this has nothing to do with prior "training" as much as it does about the state of 'Being' of that individual. Others will need some help. Transmission is a way of helping. That being said, and this is important. I have met and talked with people who read the book, did the practice for a short while and never did stillness-movement once! Now while I'm sure the Lomax haters may jump on that statement, it is not really that hard to comprehend. The same thing happens with nearly every teacher and system I have ever been involved in Daoist, buddhist, neigong, or martial arts. Why? Because we ALL project our preconceptions on to these things. This is why I always tell people to go and see the teachers not to only read the supplementary materials they put out and think 'I understand this'. I don't care if you are decent at Wing chun, it doesn't mean you know taiji or bujutsu. Yes they are "related" and yet they are not the same. Why is this hard to appreciate when it comes to cultivation lineages? Man, that just sounds plain creepy!! just kidding Again, misunderstanding. Just go to a workshop. Meet Ya Mu. That is it. If the system takes you and you want to learn more, it will happen. But please do appreciate that this is a clinical medical qigong training. Studying a subject is going to cost you, same if you want to go learn tuina, acupuncture, feldenkrais, rolfing etc Not always true. I could not have afforded to go see Ya Mu, so I helped bring him to the UK. If you've read the book you will know how financial positions and learning are not always so rosy. Anyway, I hope you find what you need and get to practice that which makes you happy. Best,

The book doesn't do Hunyuan justice and you can't learn much from it. Even with direct experience. Hunyuan neigong is worth studying given the chance though. Best,

Hi Walker In my experience so far, Stillness-movement IS internal alchemy and a powerful approach too. People think SM is a technique, a way of sitting, I feel this is a mis-conception. It is a lineage. Best,

Opinions vary. It also seems that there is also a very real political reason as to why waiqi liaofa is not used much in Chinese clinics/hospitals these days. I am sure Ya Mu will explain more about this, but yes he does address these things in his teachings and the lineage does have its approach to dealing with them and certain "safe guards" so to speak. Ya Mu also advises strongly regarding the types of teachers teaching such methods and the importance of their true understanding of sick qi in relation to the safety of the student/practitioner. Best,

I never got, and still don't get why this section is called 'Taoist discussion', given a lot of things that get discussed? So will a 'Buddhist discussion' section chang anything, probably not. Best,

Well then you won't, to be blunt. Don't presume my financial position in life. It is about priorites, and everyone has theirs. If you want to learn real cultivation, or if you have a genuine health issue that you truly want to resolve then it is about sacrifice and priorities. Nothing comes in a day, what you read in a brief post from me is a summary of years of my life. You just have to do what you can in the present, take the step immediately infront of you, that is all you can do. Do that and it will lead somewhere, don't bother because it all seems so far away and no-one can help you. Good luck to you, Best

'Non' I do not know exactly what your situation or diagnosis is. I have also been diagnosed with scoliosis, though mine is mild. The spiral distortion goes from my foot to my cranium and has resulted in chronic pain in several parts of my body, primarily in my spine and back for several years. Although I do have vertebrae that are chronically out of place, my scoliosis is 'functional' rather than 'structural', ie it is not due to the bones degrading but a complex pattern of trauma with the soft tissues pulling the bones into mis-alignment. From an energetic pov there is also a strong energetic pattern that reinforces the soft tissue pattern. In my honest opinion scoliosis can result in difficulty in learning correct meditational posture, but it does not have a bearing upon awareness of your dantian or working with it. Especially when a teacher such as Ya Mu is helping you. Same with kundalini. Yes you might have to make adaptions and take things slow (depending on the practice). But awareness and feeling these things is a separate thing. Additionally, once your qi begins moving the channels themselves will open your body and the idea of having to "adopt correct posture" is irrelevant. I have become intimately aware of my qi deviations and their relation to my structural deviations. I can say that having a decent body worker, preferably an osteopath or cranio-sacral therapist, but ideally a medical qigong practitioner or qigong tuina therapist will be a valuable help to you. Having received treatments from numerous health care practitioners over the years the above is what I can recommend. But is does depend on the type of scoliosis and the severity. I agree completely with Ya Mu's comments about approaching releasing scoliosis out of its compensation patterns. As I said, mine is only mild and not structural, but the patterns of trauma and the emotional connections can be overwhelming sometimes when released. I have even had spontaneous 'soul retrieval' type experiences as my spine unwound itself. This is one of the reasons I have gravitated towards the 'yin' traditions in my practice. Ya Mu's stillness-movement is my preferred practice and in large part that is due to the scoliosis and the benefits it has for me. Simply allowing rather than trying to 'force' or 'make' my energy and physical body do something is the way to go. I have also benefited from learning certain soft Daoist "breathing" methods, but I highly recommend them being learned from a teacher. Best,

First of all thank you to Shaktimamma for passing on Tao Semko's videos they are always superb and very informative. I also concur with Shaktimamma. It is not easy to simply say qi=prana, there is no single qi or prana, so what is being compared? Although as generalised terms a simple assumption can be made. There are several Chinese characters for qi that have been used through out history and have different meanings. Some are specific to cultivation practices and often found within Daoist texts, and in Daoist inscriptions and talismans. Qi in Chinese medicine is understood as not one thing and has its variations. Additionally the 'qi' discussed in TCM is NOT the same as the 'qi' discussed in older Daoists texts. The teachings that make most sense to me, explain that what the Daoists mean by 'qi' is actually the 真氣 (zhenqi) genuine/real qi. This is not the qi of the meridians that acupuncture and certainly TCM typically work with. Zhenqi is often equated with shakti/kundalini. My feeling is also the same, that the eight extra vessels (mingmen (also highly emphasised in Japanese traditions)) are more related to "shakti" and "kundalini" then the acupuncture meridians. This emphasis rather than on the central channel is what leads to the differences in methods and experiences. Best, The attached jpeg shows the development of the 'qi' character from the 甲骨文 Jiaguwen (bone oracle script), to an elaboration with a more specific Heaven and Earth depiction, to 小篆 Xiaozhuan (small seal of the Qin Dynasty), to the 楷书 Kaishu (regular script) and the inclusion of the 'rice' character. There are also two characters that are used within cultivation texts as well.

Hi RV, Dagon, Not all systems map things the same. There are some that say just this, upper DT = 'heart'/'solar plexus' area. This is why i think people need direct experience guided by a good teacher who can pass on the teachings of THEIR lineage. Maps from other systems can be useful and interesting as a cross-reference for wider appreciation, but can also make people mis-trust their experience or mis-understanding their lineages teachings. Just my threppence worth, Best

Nice review glad you had a blast! Best,

I watched 'Paul' the other day, the Simon Pegg, Nick Frost comedy about sci-fi geeks meeting an alien on a road trip. Interesting depiction of 'leaked' information to the masses as well as 'qigong' healing : D Best

Depends on what you want, as always. Neigong means different things to different people. Generally neigong is concerned with neiqi development and inner to outer. Many practitioners of these kinds of Daoist practice also did martial arts and so now there is 'martial' neigong, where the energetic aspects are layered with conditioning. As I have been lucky enough to have this distinction demonstrated for me it has helped put where these practices cross over and do not into much better perspective. Something I was confused over for a long time. So depending on what you want, then different things are good and others won't be. Best,

zhangong (standing) zuogong (sitting) wogong (lying) xinggong (moving) Are just 'modes', all cultivation systems use a version sometimes four, sometimes five, sometimes more. It is only a shell and hardly speaks of the true depth or mystery that any real system has going on. It's not even the tip of the iceberg, just the snowflakes on the tip. It is WHAT is being done that makes something unique and what it is, not how it appears. Best,

Put simply. I disagree. Of course it depends on the kind of trauma, any other trauma present in the body/mind, and other factors. There is a reason the core is targeted and that all the decent methods that make use of this kind of methodology use it. Best,

Bercelli's theories are very interesting, and his explanations worth looking into. The practice he advocates is not original, simply plucked out and focused upon due to a specific understanding of how the body tries to release trauma. His work his heavily influenced by the work of Peter Levine, who is a preferabble source for the how and why behind this approach to trauma as far as I am concerned. The actual core practice Berceli uses appear in several books I have read, Anodea Judith has it in one of her chakra books, I believe Barbara Brennan also has it in her famous healing book. The practice is basically the same as the 'Shaolin' zifa gong I was taught, except they like to teach it standing straight off, whereas Berceli gets you used to the process lying down and then says to try it standing. While I feel it has value, especially to enable people to become aware of and let go into allowing the body to move without conscious effort. And in an easy and pretty harmless manner. The emergence of tremours in proper neigong and meditation as reported by many people, is not always the same thing, though it seems many will go through this stage first depending on the patterns held in the energy and physical bodies. It should be remembered that the outward manifestations are not always the reuslt of the same things going on inside. The process is not the same as jingdong gong as far as I am aware. It is a body-mind method at best, and a body method at least. Best,

Chia is all yang. Not my thing. Don't be too concerned with intentional orbit practices, the idea that this is a must is a series misnomer and simply not true. It can easily lead you to a very reductionist point of view where you try to work only with the genitals and then circulate sexual energy around this little circle passing through the brain. I mean come on! what about the rest of the body and all the other channels!! Take a wholistic approach. Not 'how to' guides, but plenty of guidelines and a much more natural approach to tantra (made FAR more sense to me than Chia ever did); http://www.amazon.com/Tantric-Quest-Encounter-Absolute-Love/dp/0892816201/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1303804269&sr=1-1 http://www.amazon.com/Desire-Tantric-Awakening-Daniel-Odier/dp/0892818581/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b A practical (but still more natural) guide dealing with sexual energy, sexual energetic relationship, energetic boundaries and much more; http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=lover+within&x=0&y=0 Don't be put off by the cover and hockey title I mentioned the book previously in another thread and several on this board ended up getting a copy and giving their opinions. It deals with much more than sexual energy, but frames it as it should be in relationship, that said the sexual energy exercises are far more pragmatic and realistic than anything I've seen by Chia. Hope this helps,

I think this is an area that either appears simple to you, or complex as hell. I have been told the same, that trying to study Japanese esoteric systems was pretty pointless because the deep symbology that comes from growing up within a culture is not there. I disagree. The equivilent of these systems in the West uses just as much arcane symbology and most of which meant nothing to me when I was being taught it. You learn through experience and time, and a teacher helping to guide you, and helping to explain your experiences along the way. Ultimately it was the descriptions and language of the Western traditions, as well as the majority of people attracted to the study of them that led me to look elsewhere. As time goes on, I find that the deeper I go in the Chinese traditions I am studying the same thing, but now it makes sense, and the language does not feel so tainted with paranoia and arrogance. This is also my experience and view. I used to feel a great divide bewteen East & West in the mystery schools, now I realise that both East & West have a variety of traditions, and the divide is how they approach the work, geography has little to do with it. It is more where they start you off on the circle and whether you begin by facing inwards or outwards. Wholeheartedly agree on this as well. The use of the right hand as a sword and used to energetically 'cut' shapes/patterns for healing and protection is found East and West in more traditions that I care to mention. The specifics get local cultural colour, but the heart is the same. Agree 100% But we have to be careful. There is also the saying 'teach what they want, because they know not what they need'. So sometimes what resonates is not what we need, it is simply what we want, which is why a teacher is required. These days we can be oh so decadent when it comes to these things. We have so many options. Do I study a Chinese, Japanese, Indian, Tibetan, Nepalese, Burmese, Javanese, Hermetic, neo-shamanic, or wiccan system? Or any combination thereof. In the past you studied what you did because that was what you had access to, or you simply found yourself studying with a teacher, but you were not so aware of all these options. Of what other were doing, and whether the grass was greener. For the most part I would simply say follow your heart, and try not to worry about it. Study something that interests you, if you keep going you will continue round the circle and find where things will lead you, and as you move you may find that another teacher or system comes along and takes you in another direction. But study what you have at your feet for now, and plunge its depths. All the best,

Hi Aaron I have never read anything that makes me associate Lao Tzu (or Chuang tzu) or the sages mentioned as being martial artists. I had never even considered this connection until this thread. That does not mean they were not, of course. I certainly know plenty of martial artists who find benefit from the texts, but then they are mostly the orientlalist/exoticist types who love all ancient oriental things, anyway. Doesn't make many of the texts they read about martial arts though. There is still considerable debate, both scholarly and lay, over what the contents of the Lao Tzu relate to. People see what they want to see, always have always will. I think the beauty and the power of the early daoist texts was in their capacity to enrich, empower, and speak to people through their life experiences regardless of what it was. To be able to say so much and yet be so vague. So whether you are a dancer, a potter, a scientist, a martial artist, or anything else, the texts will have a way to speak to you. Best

Mmm, thanks to everyone who has posted thus far, though I don't think there will ever be a satisfactory answer to this. There are LOTS of ways I have seen people try to make correspondence between the Western elements, Indian elements, and Chinese. Some do not really make much sense if you really look at them, others do and yet there are still different ways of coming to a conclusion, so? I have mainly seen the same correspondence as the one given by 5ET; Chinese Indian Greek Wood - Void - AEther Metal - Air - Air Fire - Fire - Fire Water - Water - Water Earth - Earth - Earth Though, from the way the Indian and Chinese systems are conceptualised and used I have come to view them as two distinct ways of using "five" to understand the greater Universe. Though there are countless versions that try to assimilate the two as one system, I have rarely seen one that really sits well with me (it is like all the variations of trying to align the chakra with the Otz chim, and other such things). I mean, there has been disagreement and debate concerning the elements and an understanding of them since, well probably since we first came up with them to make sense of the Universe. In ancient Greece Thales felt the world started from water, Anaximenes felt it was air. Seek your own understanding through direct experience and only use other peoples as a loose rough guide to help you get engaged with them, that is the best advice I think, and certainly agree with 5Et on doing this and seeking personal deeper understanding rather than surface knowledge from texts. Best,

Slightly inspired by a recent thread. I thought people might find it fun to share some of the areas that they have come to find out,as they have continued in their practice, studies, research, are in fact more grey than black and white. Areas where plenty of 'myths' or 'mis-conceptions' are still continually perpetuated. I don't think evidence needs to be posted (though being able to back up what is posted is always best) &, as its a bit of fun. For example, some 'myths' or 'mis-conceptions' are; I ching, Tao te ching, Chuang tzu are Daoist texts. Taijiquan is a martial art with Daoist origins. The Samurai trained in koryu bujutsu for the battlefield. The religion and meditation practice of the Samurai of old was Zen. Qigong is thousands of years old. The 'West' has never had an approach to practice of a similar nature to qigong. The monks in monasteries actually fully participate in and immerse themselves in meditation rituals because it is a primary focus. The role of meditation and energy work by the individual has always been a primary focus within religious traditions in the East. (edited for clarity)

Are you going to tell me it was founded by Zhang San-Feng? after watching a crane and snake Taijiquan does not originate from Daoists, sorry to break it to you. Given the information we have of its history, the most logical and accepted understanding is that it is a composite martial art (only acquired the name "taiji" later on, much later on) that has become associated with Daoism most heavily over the last 150 years or so. Sun Lu Tang played a large part in this, with the grouping of the 'three' internal arts under neijia and with his projection of Daoist cosmology over IMA in his popular and publicly released books. The Daoist connection was most heavily adopted by the Yang stylists (funny the Chen stylists never really went there) for cultural and sociological reasons far more than anything else. And it was through their perpetuation, not only of the Zhang San-Feng myth but of the Daoist connection as well, that has established it so solidly in peoples minds. Many people project backwards using a mentality akin to 'retrogressive diagnosis', it is like the Western qigong people who think what they do is the same as cultivation practitioners thousands of years ago! and who read translated texts and think that if they read a word they have a definition for today, then the author was writing of the same thing hundreds or thousands of years ago! There is also a big culture in China of re-writing history and using history. Taijiquan is NOT a Daoist art, can it be used by Daoists as a vehicle? of course it can, but so can walking down the road, eating breakfast and doing pretty much anything. Is it a great system for maintaining the body, of course it is, and as such can compliment long periods of sitting meditation practice. But it was NOT founded or created by Daoists. Do Daoist concepts fit with taijiquan? of course, but then most 'Daoist' concepts in many peoples minds are not Daoist as much as simply Chinese. And I can understand many things in my life through Daoist principles (they'd be a bit crap if I couldn't). Now, there have been SOME Daoists, who did taiji, some left it as a martial art, others used it as a vehicle and poured cultivation aspects into it. This is different, but is also very rare and while many would have you believe this is more common, my understanding is that it is not. This is also a relatively recent development, and has nothing to do with where taijiquan comes from. Daoist temples today also teach taiji, this is due to the government cashing in on tourism and expectation based on the misconceptions and the form are usually yang sometimes chen. Sometimes they are honest about the origin of their forms other times they are not. Many Daoist temples these days and pretty much like a resort health and fitness spa so, I suppose going to gym and taking a yoga class can also be Daoist is we copy the Chinese temples. Don't believe me, no skin off my nose, but have a look, seriously do some research and see for yourself. I mean take a look behind the curtain don't skim or you'll just get the myths. I you get stuck PM me I'll be happy to point you in certain directions, but if you look you should do just fine Best,