寒月 Hanyue

Are we really going to have all this again. Most here know you feel that non-Chinese don't know anything about Daoism or cultivation practice. And that with your decades of reading and developing your own qigong from your taiji experiences in the 70's you know all there is to know. Is there mis-understanding in the West? of course! is there mis-understanding in China? of course! But your posts seriously show a lack of awareness of what is taught by the Chinese, even today, and you appear to assume that any post made by a non-Chinese is simply their made up bullshit rather than what has been taught to them by legit teachers of these traditions. I'm sorry if what people discuss does not fit with the sky you can see from your well. But I don't think anyone here is fooled by your attempts to denigrate others due to their ethnic background. And if you think my Chinese teachers are talking crap, well, given their backgrounds and experience I'm still going to take their word for it over yours, sorry. Sage advice indeed..... Best,

My favourite edition is a Japanese one, I just looked and it appears it may still only be available in Japan It contains other essays by Musashi as well as the Go rin no sho, as well as images of his paintings. It also has the old Japanese text, a translation of this into modern Japanese, and then an English translation as well. It is a lovely book. I bought a copy in Tokyo, and then lost it in Heathrow, I eventually plumbed out to have a copy shipped, but bought extra's as presents for my budo teacher The English translation in this edition is by William Scott Wilson and is easily available on its own without the above. Best,

I'm going to come back to this, so I maintain some pragmatic contributions in the thread The energy-body has a natural pulsation, it opens and it closes. Some days it will be bigger than others. In Summer it is bigger than in Winter. These cycles are observable in our selfs and in nature. I was just out in a park and you could see how much the trees have pulled their energy in during this time in Winter. Our energy-body also responds to the shifting circumstances we find ourselves in. It is dynamic and not static. The "dan-tian" is a part of our energy-body, and each dantian also pulses, opening and closing etc. There is an idea wrapped up in the Chinese term 'he' 合 (close) that means 'close in', rather than say 'close out'. I had this explained once using the Great Wall, which for many years was considered a barrier to stop others getting in (close out). However, understanding about this has changed in some circles. Now they view the wall as giving boundaries to the country, to enable the population to 'fill in' or 'close in' upto and behind the wall. Now whether or not this is true regarding the wall is not important. What I want to highlight is that by having a border, we can fill in upto that border, which is expand into the border, this enables a sense of density to occur within, this is "containment". The border itself is not a fixed static thing, it too can be allowed to move in a direct proporsion to the filling in and building density. If we simply expand, there is no containment. However, I am not talking about rigidly forcing anything, or resisting anything, it is more like an organic membrane. It is not that we cannot simply tune into the natural pulsation of the energy-body, and listen to it opening and closing, we can, and doing so is a very good thing to do. It rebalances and dissolving blockages. We can also tune into 'energy-centers' and feel their natural pulsations. But working with "containment" is different, it stimulates things, and develops things differently. And it is what I believe some, not all, but some of the dantian gong is about and what makes it different (not better, just different) to other methods. But it is a natural part of the characteristics of the pulsation inherent in all things, this approach simply works with it, whereas other approaches may be more interested in other natural characteristics. Once I had my aha moment, which I think I was quite slow to have, I have begun to see this fundamental energetic characteristic in SO much Daoist practice, in numerous ways! Best,

Sure, absolutely. They chose and adopted the term because it made sense to the experiences arising from the practice. I'm sure the people before the adoption of the term "dantian" felt that whatever terms they used also described their experiences, and as mentioned in my post above, you can choose to adopt other terms or explanations and box/label the experiences of neigong in completely different ways, it doesn't change what is actually being done or what you go through. Which isn't to say or comment on whether or not "dantian" as a term is accurate or helpful. But it might highlight, why some even when practicing within the Chinese paradigm have varying opinions?? "There is the thing itself, then there is what we learn to experience it, and the two are not the same and shouldn't be confused." An old martial teacher of mine. What is usually written down and passed on within a tradition, is the common denominator, the most likely experiences/phenomena surroudning something. Not all possible permutations or possibilities. Which is why if we think what was written is all there is, we are wrong, if we think it is what we should experience we are wrong, especially if it leads us to chase things other than allow and be present to the awakening sensations arising within us. Experiencing what we are and having that unfold is different. Confirmation of experience is always helpful to know we are not going astray, but this is where a teacher rather than a book is preferable IMO. Particularly as you shift more into the subtle teachings. The transmission of a method occured via practice, then you go to the master and told them what had happened. They might then explain what you felt, and further guide your practice, or let you get on with it. Or they might not say anything at all. But this is how terms are learned. Really the ONLY reason to adopt a term to describe an experience is to teach (also to discuss). Which is why learning from someone who is a 'natural' at something can be difficult, they aren't always fully aware of what it is that makes them good at something, and they don't always have the language or ability to communicate it for others to replicate. I have found this to be true for all things, physical, mental, energetic. The transmission of terms is meant to help you not hinder you. As you say, it is form and emptiness, the object and the mirror, they are not separate things. Best,

I'm going to borrow a phrase from one of my teachers, and shift its context... "dantian is the most AND least important thing..." I firmly believe this. The easiest way to explain it is that I know people who have developed and cultivated dantian in a manner consistant with Daoist practices, including neigong and upto shengong. And they have NO concept of "dantian" within their system or lineage! Talk about evidence for, the practice, the thing itself, is what is important. Nature - mountains are mountains, rivers are rivers, doesn't matter where you are in the world. Best,

Exactly. As far as I know, "dantian" is a term that became popular during a certain time period. The adoption of that descriptor came AFTER the practices. After the initial adoption of the term, it becomes popular and so all kinds of practices end up using the term. Its like "core" training today, go back several decades no-one spoke of a 'core'. Now nearly everyone in any form of physical training speak of it! Yet ask 10 different people just what the "core" is, or how to work with it, and you know what? You'll get 11 different answers! This is human nature, we certainly shouldn't think this only occurs with "esoteric" or "old" concepts. Such debate and discussion ain't going to go away, not even with the power of the inta-webs Best,

I don't speak for Michael, or the system, so take my posts for what they are [previous post edited accordingly]. As I understand it, the emergence of the external movements in SM neigong come from particular phenomena occuring in the energy body/dantian. I'm trying to avoid the Chinese terms. Different people will reach this at different times, and it is usually considered something that takes a while to cultivate, unless of course a teacher helps. This is why Michael writes of helping create and light peoples dantians. Best,

Co-incidence? I recently read something pertinent about this, by a SM-Neigong teacher. I also had Friend PM me about something similar (sorry I haven't got back to you yet mate). [i don't speak for Michael, or the system, so take my posts for what they are.] The appearance of movement in SM neigong is due to a specific thing, it does not refer simply to any movements. This is what makes it different to many of the methods taught usually under a variation of zifa qigong (spontaneous qigong). That is also not to say that the arising external movements within SM neigong cannot occur in other neigong. It is a recognition of a neigon phenomena. The difference between SM neigong an dother neigong is the lineage. Shou gong 收功, is usually translated as 'closing practice' however 'shou' can mean; to accept / to collect / to put away / to restrain / to stop. This method is intended to help you shift back from practice to normal functioning. Have the intent for the movements to stop, cease, calm down. If later on they start up again, use the intent again. Best,

Sorry to hear of your problems. You can affect the nerve, qi, and blood flow through the sacral-pelvic area without it being nerve damage that would show up on an MRI or EMG. Simply flushing qi through the area won't help, the structure itself needs to be worked on. Few people have strong enough qi to affect the structure in the way you most likely need. You still want someone to work with the qi, you don't want to throw that away. However.. Find a reputable osteopath and have them assess the sacral junctures. I say Osteopath, but I have no idea of how the standards are maintained in the US. I am personally not a fan of Chiropractors, for numerous reasons, however that doesn't mean all Chiro's are bad. And my recommendation of an Osteopath doesn't mean all Osteo's are good either. Caveat emptor, look passed marketting and try to find someone who has a genuine reputation. If you want to go Chinese medicine then I second BKA recommendation, the Zhengu Tuina guys have a very good reputation with what they do. Not all tuina (Chinese bodywork) is the same kind of animal. Self work, stretching is a no-no in that it probably won't help you, and may make it worse. If you have strongly compressed the junctures throughout the pelvis and the lumbar spine, there will also most likely be a 'trauma reaction' in the nervous system causing an subconsious bracing as a protective mechanism. Pulling on these tissues, can reinforce that. Weight training, heavey weights, also a no-no. This adds the stimulation of compression on to the issue. Chinese arts, when done properly (yoga when done properly too), should be about creating length and decompressing, even when it appears to be adding load across a joint. In the West we approach handling such load through contraction and compression. An easier option would be exploring some of the Feldenkrais movements associated with the pelvis and spine. It may feel a little alien as the approach to movement can be quite different and take a while to get used to. Most approach them as though they are simple gym calisthenics. Don't be fooled by the apparent simplicity, these can be done very soft and VERY deep into the body, releasing soft tissues, opening joints and relieving nerves. I have found it more accessible to Westerners for this kind of work than Chinese arts making use of the same processes. When a stuck and compressed sacro-iliac juncture 'opens' and pops/cracks, you may experience a sharp brief pain, but it should not stay with you. I have felt this myself. Depending upon the extent of any resulting pressure on the nerves down into the legs, you may further experience nerve related sensations down the legs or feet as that pressure changes. I have seen more forceful methods to approach the above, but the Feldenkrais movements are the amongst the softest and simplest, and have more potential for re-integrating the balance of the muscles and bones through the area than many other methods. It certainly isn't the only way, but it is accessible. Do so along with the guidance and treatment of someone, this way it will support that treatment and vice versa. There are lots, of free lessons on this website. Please read the guide first though. http://www.flowingbody.com/ This video I have quickly chosen at random to simply illustrate the basic idea of Feldenkrais type work with the pelvis and sacrum, as many prefer a visual aid. You can always search out a practitioner for lessons if need be. Best,

Sheesh...Don't they have humour in China?? : (

Yes, this IS the dantian in dantian gong. It is 'sandan he yi', (three dan become one), that really there is just one dantian that is you. Many neidan commentators say that the use of 'dantian' singular refers to the "lower" dantian, but it is a mis-understanding IMHO. If we consider Da Vinci's Vitruvian man in a similar vein. It is also what Lao Zi refers to, it is why the term 'shou yi' exists, but again people have turned that term into debate and argument over where the 'one' that is guarded actually is, as though it is a location. As for consenus, having two lineage holders of Daoist practice that were taught in a direct and traditional manner independently explain the same view of dantian, how to work with them, what they are, why they are, where they are and how or why the various opinions regarding location etc exist, and that you will only understand through direct personal experience, well that is good enough for me. Best,

丹可丹，非常丹。名可名，非常名 Dan ke dan, fei chang dan. Ming ke ming fei chang ming.....?

Thank you for sharing, very informative Absolutely!! Well said. Well the OP is asking about the LDT. But I don't know any method that solely attempts to isolate the LDT in ignorance of the others. Thanks again for sharing more about your practice. All the best,

Hey mate, Some further food for thought on this. In Bruce's system he discusses it as the physical breath and the subtle breath, in Longevity Breathing you refine and shift from one towards the other. His breathing method was originally part of his kaihe (open/close) neigong set, called Marriage of Heaven and Earth. This neigong set is about feeling and exploring kai-he or "pulsing" throughout the physical and energetic bodies. The dissolving process is a precursor in that be releasing and opening the physical and energetic bodies, it is more likely that you will be able to feel the natural pulsations, since they will be less stuck. That said, I have also been taught method that tune straight into these pulsations, and use them to 'dissolve' what is stuck. So thesedays I perceive the two as intimately related, but not in any linear way. Best,

Sorry, they aren't from websites. The Nan Huai Jin quote is from the Anapanasati conversations 'e-book'. I always found it interesting since Bodri goes on about anapanasati and its benefits and only discusses it as a 'breathing' method. The other quote is from a book on Tibetan Buddhism by Namgyal Rinpoche. I want to be clear, I am not saying that breath work is not a part of anapanasati, but that it is only one way to enter into the work of anapanasati, and it has become the dominant and most common one, to the extent that most now appear to believe that that is all it is. The same has occured with Daoist tu na fa. Best,

Anything that develops intra-abdominal pressure in a safe and progressive manner is. It is good stimulation for the health of the internal organs too. The difference with using an external 'stimulation' is feedback, as it is far easier to fool yourself with the internal 'stimulation' methods. The important thing is the line of diminishing returns between the benefit for dantian for daogong (Daoist cultivation), and the benefit for wugong (martial cultivation). We have the stories of monks/priests being too weak physically to really do their spiritual development, but we also have the stories of people becoming so caught up in and lost in the more mundane practices that they lose sight of and do not cultivation themselves spiritually. Martial artists that borrowed such methods of course had a different agenda than monks and priests. Not a right or wrong, just a case of what is appropriate for what you are doing and why. Best,

It is not an cultivation ancient secret, and it is not what I would call a 'dantian' exercise. In that it is usually not the dantian, but a breath mechanism being developed. Even if that breath mechanism is further used to play with the dantian. It was primarily a martial practice, and it can be found in several Asian martial lineages. I have seen variations in Japanese Koryu, Indonesian arts, and of course Chinese. There is also an 'explosive' version that you build towards with the above method Sonofthegods posted. Place a coin on the belly and hit the ceiling with it! The idea is simply to create a restrictive pressure on the abdominal wall and then practice breathing, it is a way to add build intra-abdominal pressure by adding pressure from the outside in the form of a weight. The KEY is that you are practicing a BREATHING method, you are not doing abdominal 'push ups' against a weight. The problem is that most end up making it all about the weight. There are LOTS of inventive variations, and not all involve a weight on the belly. This is simply a grossly obvious one. Best,

Can you talk more about this? I have heard from several people they prefer to use the thoracic dantian. I understand reasons for using different locations, but it is always nice to hear direct experiences from people and what they have felt and found themselves. Best,

Apologies in advance, but in the least to play a little devils advocate, actually anapana doesn't mean "mindfulness of breath" it literally means something like yes/no prana, with sati meaning awareness. The natural fluctuation, pulsation and movement of prana is most grossly seen in the breath mechanism. However all high level teachers I know teach that this is kindergarten in the bigger picture, ie only an intial step. "Today there is much confusion surrounding the practice of anapana meditation. The problems stem from the misconception of the word 息 xi or hsi. Many cultivation sects, the Japanese Zen schools included, confuse the in-and-out breathing for xi. Therefore when they teach the students to meditate by counting the xi they are simply counting the breathing, not the xi that stands for the source of life without the movements of inhaling and exhaling... ...life is sustained by a continuous movement of expansion and contraction, or how energy functions. The goal of anapana meditation is to cultivate that “movement,” not to cultivate the in-and-out of the respiratory breathing. This has to be clear from the outset.” Nan Huai Jin “the meditation on breathing, on the basic dharma of prana or energy flow. Anapanasati is not, in fact, a meditation on breath, but on in/out prana. That is what this meditation is for – awareness of energy flow. And if you were to examine the word anapana quite closely, taking it back to it’s Sanskrit roots, you really end up with “yes/no energy”. Actually, it could be “no/no energy,” because literally the word could be understood as follows: a + na and a + pana, which makes two negations... This meditation is enumerated as the way to develop awareness of the energy feeds. You start with the breath because it is the most crude, the most obvious energy flow. The meditation naturally unfolds from there. Maybe the awareness of breathing might cease, but the awareness of energy flows, of the ana-pana-sati, should not." Namgyal Rinpoche This is also why in Daoist xian-tian practice the "breath" is not considered a primary mechanism for the method, is it involved? Of course, the same as many physiological functions are. But it is not the focus of practice. This is why I stated the difference between hou-tian and xian-tian dantian gong earlier. All schools Hindu, Buddhist, and Daoist recognise this distinction. Learning to feel the pulsation of the "energy"-body as related but distinct from the physical breath is not as difficult as some may have you believe. Best,

I read it, not sure what you want to hear. I know you feel you had a kundalini awakening 30 years ago. These days lots of people appear to feel they have, or had. I'd honestly re-read your own older thread... http://thetaobums.com/topic/30811-pranotthana-or-kundalini/ One of my great-grand teachers had healed himself and experienced remarkable things. Later in life under the guidance of another teacher he opened his central channel muvh to his surprise, since he had opened it many decades ago, yet this was even deeper an experience. As my teacher reminds us, there are always higher/deeper levels. Best,

Dude, cummon...you know its just static. Have you not seen the carpets in his house! The real secret is in the walk ; p

What about them? There is no consenus on "the rules" for one. Be sensible, loss of jing doesn't only come about from ejaculation, and sex doesn't have to excesively deplete you. It isn't a black or white situation. Further to that, being a miser and holding onto the semen (semen is a type of jing, but jing is not semen), does not automatically lead to more energy in the Daodan sense. People feel more yang and they think this is good. Having a really stressful life will deplete your jing, having sex with someone you love in a sensible fashion that shifts you out of a contracted stressful place is better for you, than the alternative, even if you ejeculate. Best,

You can't store what you don't have in something you can't feel. You don't breath, you die, but what is breath, and what is dying?

In neither Daoist neigong nor Buddhist practice, is belly breathing or even dantian breathing considered a method for storing qi in the dantian. It has another role. "Charging". The use of hara in Old school Budo is very similar to good gongfu, and they don't "belly" breathe either, in the sense of continual expansion contraction of the belly/abdomen. It leaves one open as your power and structure is not constant. But this is a secret, so shhhh! ; P

This question appears every few years, and I think it always will. Been there myself trying to figure this out. If it is any solace to you, please know that there has been discussion and debate upon this very topic for hundreds of years, if not longer. Further to that, I do not believe there to be a definitive answer, there are several interpretations that make sense in slightly different ways. Even the late great Master, Nan Hua Jin, acknowledged for his cultivation accomplishments as well his his more academic awareness, does not have a definitive answer. The book 'Body of Light' by Mann and Short attempts to explore the similarities and the differences between the energy body maps of Hindu yoga, Buddhist yoga and Chia's Daoist alchemy. They look at the spine-central body thing, as well as why some say ida and pingala intertwine and others say they are straight. It won't necessarily answer all your questions, however you may enjoy the read. So please know that according to this book, the through the spinal cord or straight line through the body thing, is ALSO a difference that occurs in ideas of the 'central channel' between many Hindu and Buddhist maps. Let alone Chinese Daoist maps as well. The best understanding comes from direct experience, derived from the practice of a method. When you practice a method, follow the teachings and explanations of the teacher. This will lessen confusion and or frustration from practicing one method and looking at maps from another. That said, I will happily pass on what I have found to be the case. I'm afraid some of it is a little different to the information presented by Sonofthegods. I go on three things. What I have felt and or experienced directly What I have been taught directly What is said in the classics Thesedays I ignore 'pop-qigong' books. The Chinese model: [edit: I have intentionally not translated some pinyin terms. This is because it would be too involved to also provide a description of these things, which is again often different than what I have seen more commonly given in TCM texts. So I leave these things open and vague, you can look them up and begin to understand them for yourself, but caveat emptor and do not believe the first thing you find, the rabbit hole is always deeper than first appears.] All diagrams are drawn for a reason and a purpose, they show what they show based upon this and they omit what they do based on this. Just because it doesn't appear on a given diagram, does not mean it isn't there. First let me say that the diagrams most people throw around thesedays derive from TCM diagrams that are quite recent in the history of these traditions. They tend to be anatomically based, and drawn on a 'Western' looking body. The old diagrams can be more confusing to peoples minds and eyes today, but actually make more sense in many many ways. These phenomena are not anatomical in the sense we are often led to think. The qi mai, particularly those within the qijing bamai are not simply a 'line' that traverses the body as depicted in TCM diagrams! There is a reason routes for these qi mai did not appear in literature for a long time, and there is a reason the 'routes' are a little vague. There has also always been slight differences in the Daoist and medical understandings, because while they have a common ground, they are also pursuing different things. Of course, thesedays TCM has standardised everything so now it is as clear as mud! Bear in mind that it is generally regarded that the classical jingluo (meridian/channel) model of Chinese medicine considered that there were 72 'channel's as an interwoven texture that comprises a person. As TCM was developed this was reduced to 14! The category of "the 14 channels" is a modern TCM one. Remember the Dao de jing, As soon as we think we have something labelled and understand it, then we are actually missing the point. This applies more to the qijing bamai than the jingluo. To begin, we need to explore and explode some common qigong myths that have arisen out of attempts to simplfy things for easy consumption. After, you'll see why such simplifications are usually used regardless of the misnomers they may cause! Du mai: "sea of yang" First of all, du mai does not simply go through the spinal cord. In fact according to some it doesn't go through the spinal cord at all! It goes along the back of the spine, the spinal processes that extend from the vertebrae. But the single line channel of it along the line of the spine is NOT an accurate depiction of the du mai either! In the Su Wen, the du mai actually has a route that travels through the front of the body, passing through the abdomen to the eyes. This part of the du mai is very similar in description to the ren mai. Further to this part of the du mai actually runs along the spine on either side, these are also described in the Su Wen. On top of that, there is a luomai part of the dumai that also runs along the back on either side of the spine. There is also a short route through the brain that connects baihui at the crown, through niwan in the center, to the yuzhen area in the occiput. So please know the du mai is MORE than simply a line though the spine. Ren mai: "sea of yin" Stay with me here, but it is in fact the ren mai that travels through the spinal cord! Yes, strange I know. But just as the 'route(s)' of the du mai are not as simple or straight forward as often depicted, neither is the ren mai. The ren mai passes through the front of the torso, circles the mouth and connects to the du mai, however there is another aspect to its route, that passes through the spinal column with one end in the mouth, and the other passing through huiyin and up into the lower abdomen, its luo mai is seen as spreading out over the solar plexus area. I know this is somewhat controversial, and in part that is why I am posting this information, to show that these things are not as simple or straightforward as they may appear. See the attached jpg's below, from two different sources regarding the ren mai. However, if we accept the above, then the often discussed various 'routes' of the xiao zhou tian are always variations of qi moving through the ren and du mai. No other qi mai need apply! Until of course the zhong mai is awoken and that can come into play. Xiao zhou tian: "small heavenly cycle" Due to the relationship of the above two routes, the du mai and ren mai are usually simplified into a basic circuit that goes along the central line of the torso front and back. This is where an appreciation of acupuncture comes in. Acupuncturists are primarily interested in and concerned with where they can put a needle! Makes sense right? As such, regardless of the whole of a qi mai, what is of primary importance to an acupuncturist is the parts of the qimai that are superficial enough to be needled. This means most discussions, and diagrams of these qi mai that have arisen from Chinese medicine, particularly the standardised TCM ones, limit themselves to what is viewed as most applicable. This is of course, the front of the torso and the tissue along the spinal processes. And this 'circuit' is most easily described as du mai on the back (yang) and ren mai on the front (yin). Further to this, and something I have attempted to avoid in my choice of language above, is the idea that these more superficial parts of the qi mai are the "primary" routes, and the rest are "secondary" routes or branches. Ridiculous! They are a whole, a thing, is the origin of a muscle the primary part of it, with the belly secondary, and the insertion tertiary!? No, of course not, it is a functional unit. The language of "primary" route in TCM is again referring to the part accessible with a needle, that is why it is "primary", primary in TCM for acupuncture. Not as an energetic anatomical structure! The important thing is always, the movements of qi, and NOT how we divide these movements and label them. It really makes no difference about whether the qi mai through the spinal cord is labelled 'ren' or 'chong' or 'du' for that matter, it is what it is regardless of the name. Instead, consider the names, what do they actually mean, and why might one system/person refer to that movements of qi as any of them? Chong mai: There are several depictions of chong mai. I have seen some qigong authors who consider it is the chong mai that travels through the spinal cord not the ren mai. However, even though some qigong authors go there, I have found no Chinese medical text that describes chong mai as running through the entire length of the spinal cord. The route of the chong mai is a little ambiguous in the classics. But it's route is usually considered in several parts, of interest here I will simply mention that there are upper and lower parts. It is the upper parts in the torso that most go on about. However it also travels down the inside of the legs. Part of the torso route moves through the front of the torso on either side of the ren mai, similarly to the way part of the du mai parralels its own central route. Quite different, to the idea of it running in the spinal cord. Zhong mai: This is the channel that goes through the center of the body between baihui and huiyin. It is what Johnson calls the 'taiji pole' though I personally do not like that name or term. In fact, due to Johnson's form of copy and paste editing, depending on which sections of his textbooks you are reading he confuses and conflates terms and routes, as differing explanations and descriptions appear, so caveat emptor. I have been taught about zhong mai even within classical Chinese medicine, when this confused many of the TCM people present, my teacher remarked that is is rarely mentioned but does appear in old texts. It is however more often mentioned within cultivation. Chong mai and Zhong mai: I have heard various descriptions of the relationship between these two. Some say that it is one channel, and that as you cultivate qi, it straightens out from the curved route of the chong mai to the straight route of the zhong mai. Others have explained that the zhong mai route is the older understanding and over time in medicinal circles, it evolved into a curved more detailed route. I don't think it matters, treat them as separate, they only pointing at something anyway. Directionality: TCM charts and the Western numbering system provides the impression that the qimai have "directionality", further to this many qigong methods that utilise yunqi (moving qi intentionally) work with various qi mai with directionality too. This has created the erroneous impression that the qi flows in a particular direction only. As such, when people first start feeling their qi moving, it will either fall into this notion, or it will be moving counter to it and people freak out! I have seen this numerous times. This is why many old school teacher advise you not to read books, because if your emerging experience does not fit your idea of what you think should and can happen, it can cause problems as your head gets in your own way. This erroneous idea of directionality shows an adherence to an understanding of the qi mai coming I believe from TCM and is quite recent. It shows a lack of understanding of the nature of qi, and of the qi mai as they are taught within older traditions, this has at least been my experience. Qi moves, cycles, waves and rhythms, but the much vaunted TCM circadian circulation is only one map used to understand the movement of qi in the energy-body. Qi actually moves in qi mai in both directions, and it doesn't automatically or simply mean that you have niqi (rebellious qi) if it is moving counter to this map. Similarly with the movement of qi through the xiao zhou tian. I have seen people get confused because the Western TCM numbering of ren mai goes up the body, but they've read in qigong that qi should go down it?! In classical texts there are several maps of how qi moves and cycles in the body. However, due to modern emphasis many feel that the maps conflict with each other as they attempt to reduce everything to a definitional model. But these maps are not intended that way, and neither is my explanation in this post! And in fact these each represent an aspect of the whole, by depicting the various relationships that are inherently a part of the Chinese model, like looking through through different filters at something that otherwise is too confusing to comprehend. What many are referring to as 'kundalini' thesedays, can be experienced through the spine, or through the centre of the body, or both. It is not an either or thing. The primary difference between the Daoist and Yogic experience comes not from the energy phenomena itself, but the dao yin (guiding and leading) that is inherent within the practice methods. Whether that dao yin is implicit or explicit. This is why classical 'kundalini' descriptions are of the spine and rising, and Daoist descriptions are of circulating and 'filling' (see thread on filling dantian). A power lifter and a sprinter do not train or develop their bodies in the same way, yet they have the same muscles and bones and both train and develop their bodies. Summary: At the end of the day, names, terms, and boxes are not important (Lao Zi chapter 1). You can change the names of the qi mai around it doesn't matter. What they point to is more important. And this is the various 'routes' that you can potentially feel and experience qi moving within, or along. And, if your methodology goes there, the 'routes' that can be seen as beneficial to stimulate qi by stirring it with your intent. It doesn't matter what you call these things, or whether the Hindu's preferred to 'stir' their qi one way, the Buddhist, and Daoist another. Best, [edited for spelling and grammer]