寒月 Hanyue

Dude, you don't seem to have much of an understanding of what magik is or is not, or even Mo Pai for that matter. And you blatantly DO believe in it or you would NOT have started this thread (sorry to break it to you) tell yourself what you want to. For what it is worth there are people who have written their accounts of thinking it was impossible for someone else to effect them if they didn't believe, only to find out how wrong they were (one published case that comes to mind is that of antropologist, shaman, and author Alberto Villoldo). The GOOD news is that the people that are actually capable of doing this are rare and most that threaten such things are simply ONLY capable of psychological ploys and intimidation and making YOU BELIEVE they are able to effect you. Those using psychological ploys (such as posting grim reaper and obituaries)all they need is a leak, to get into your head. Stating that you do not believe but want to be safe so will....is a way in that you really don't want to put out there. This coming from an old acquaintance of mine who was into hoodoo and knew how to get into peoples heads,especially when they were adamant he could not. If you want to better understand how to deal with psychic or energetic attacks, rather than turn to cultural ritual things you don't truly understand (and say you don't believe in anyway), I would PM people on this board that may be able to tell you a few things that will actually help you, and set you straight. I certainly cannot speak for them so cannot say they will, but two that I know can, and may be willing to help, if you ask politely and respectfully, are Susan or Santi. There are others on here, like 5ETao who may also be able to help if approached appropriately but I do not know them personally. Best,

The self is a micro of the macro, the hands can be seen as a micro of that micro, so can the feet and other areas. As a general view the 'posture' of the hands can be viewed as symbolically representing the whole body, the body in ritual can be felt as representative of the universe etc. There are various systems of understanding the symbology of the hands, not just the five elements, and there are MANY versions of the five element symbology of the hands. NO the knowledge has not been lost, but many will claim to know what they don't like the kuji in. Yes, the information is conflicting. Find a system geared towards your goals (spiritual, healing etc) and stick with that, ignore everything else it will just add confusion. Mudra (asana, kriya etc)are meant to occur naturally through cultivation, the use of replicated specifics is ONLY an attempt to reverse engineer the experience of Being that brought them out. Now if it was YOUR experience of Being then with the correct approach you may be able to find that again. If it is someone elses', without their help (transmission) good luck. Why do you think different lineages transmit specific postures for use? Whether whole body or hands or specific movements? True mudra are far more than self hypnosis using anchor and triggers which is nothing more than Ericksonian hypnotism on the self. Yes it works, yes it does something but it is NOT the same. So, first cultivate self properly Second, study a system that makes sense, in time both will bear fruit Remember that the mudras used are only ever a SMALL part of a whole total system (something the kuji nuts forget ) Best,

Get qi first. Then if you haven't had spontaneous mudra, playing with them will make sense. There are many systems and often with conflicting theories about how or why they work, pick one stick with it, but. No qi, they don't do a lot. My two penneth, Best

Hi Mal I think you'll find it useful. It won't conflict with KAP. The same basic idea of breathing in to the kidneys, sides etc are layed out in the Tian dao course Doc studied, although they teach them after several other breath patterning and other exercises. The breathing CD and the 'Songs of the Dao' are the two of Bruce's materials with the most mileage on them that I have. Best, P.S. I like Dennis Lewis work on breathing for a well rounded perspective.

Bingo! +1 So WHY did they think it was IMPORTANT? Most look at it today simply because they think it is Daoist and so they should. If you are trying to understand what the old Daoists were, then you will be studying the I ching even if you never pick up the book. Being before Doing. Observe change. Dao is change, nature is change you are change. I had written a follow up post but it seems it is not meant to be and the forum has eaten it. Somethings just aren't meant to get posted! The trinity is about understanding change. Start with experience and with guidance use the I ching to make sense of it, it is best not to study an old text and try to make your observations fit it. Be aware of becoming tied up with Chinese numerology, and be aware that the two main sources for the numerology/cosmology are the I ching and the Lao zi, and they give conflicting information. Most use one and re-interpret the other accordingly. You're most welcome, they are only thoughts Best

Bruce explains the classic texts as each sentence being like a book title in itself, a deep well. Many skip to chase the next big thing, or in this analogy speed read and miss a lot. That said, it can go two ways, you can dive to far and never move on ie become stagnant in your practice (I am guilty of both at different times). So moderation and balance and guidance are best. I met someone this year who put so much of Bruce's stuff in perspective for me it was like being given a decoder ring Best,

It certainly gets the left-right brain working! I've seen a lot of people who get bored and fed up because of this too. It is a shame. Andrew Nugent-Head of yin bagua explains that traditional Chinese learning/teaching is about learning A-B-C-D, and the then learning D-C-B-A, and then learning A-B-C-D again but from a different view and then learning D-C-B-A and so on. You use the same thing but keep learning it forwards backwards and in different ways. Western learning is to learn A-B-C-D, and then to move on to E-F-G-H because you want something new. You both will get to the end point and both have the potential for going as deep, but the Western approach tends to be concerned more, initially, with learning 'things' and the outer. The Chinese approach with exploring the 'layers' and depth. His current teacher told him if he wanted to be his student he expected him to learn the classic medical texts by heart (only forwards not backwards as he was not Chinese) and to learn to write with his right hand not his left! Best,

The I Ching is NOT Daoist. There are however Daoist commentaries, as well as Buddhist and Confucian ones. They ALL used it. Just because it it is not a Daoist text, does not mean it has not been utilised by Daoists for a long time. As with anything their appreciation and take on its uses and meanings will differ slightly. Same with many Chinese texts, Daoists have often claimed them, and PEOPLE!, as being about what they do, Buddhists and Confucians also do the same. It is just the way of things. Given that most on here are not so interested in diving into the depths of a rigorous understanding of the entwining of all these things through Chinese history, it doesn't really matter. And ALL history is speculation and opinion even when highly educated, there will always be different versions and debates on it. 天人地 tian ren di Is also written tian di ren and appears in Japanese arts frequently as well. It is a trinity that occurs a lot and is a central and important theme. That said many of the correlations and correspondences you will find are tradition specific so it is kinda pointless to try to catalogue them and lump them all together. It is to be used to understand harmony and balance in ALL things. I would rather appreciate the idea behind it and what it s trying to impart to you, rather than the past ideas of others. Though they may help you understand how to see in to the concept itself. If you want to balance two things you need a pivot or central point no? In relation to ones life, you need to balance spiritual pursuits with more mundane aspects of life that still need to be addressed, this is one aspect of tian ren di. Zhuang gong is based on tian ren di, and standing in particular is seen as a very direct embodiment of this idea. You are literally 'standing' between Heaven and Earth. There are many qigongs which directly play with the mixing of heaven and eath qi into you as the intermediary. Some of these are moving qigong, some are seated. Some combine this trinity with other trinities such as the three dantians, and jing, qi, shen. You can also bring in skin, tissue, bone or martial, medical, and spiritual. The concept itself goes back to the shamanic origins of these things and the tree and the three 'homes'. But unfortunately these days these ideas have been so appropriated it is hard to find any reliable sources and ones that are not re-hashes of newage neo-shamanic waffle based more upon kabbalistic and Western ceremonial type notions of a 'world' map. The commonly seen separated three "worlds" (there is only one world) often depicted as Germanic or Norse for example have no grounding in the actual texts of those cultures whatsoever. And this notion has been further widespread as how 'shamanic' people everywhere view the world, sad (think retcon ). Things are often a little more mundane than many want to believe. Hope this helps, Best regards,

As I have been told, Bruce's requirement for reverse breathing is having a relaxed two minute breath. I have only known him hint at what his version involves in released materials. I can only assume that when he feels it is appropriate to those in front of him he will teach or show parts of it. I cannot comment on it, I don't know it. As per usual Bruce goes in to great depth in to each stage, much more than many teachers do. Bruce does separate the physical and the subtle breaths. His way for you to learn to be aware of the subtle breath is to first clear out the blockages in your physical breath. This is the track listing on the cd. DISC 1: Introduction 1: Feeling Your Breath 2: Learning to Avoid Holding Your Breath 3: Becoming Aware of Distraction 4: Breathing Along the Central Channel of Your Body 5: Breathing Down the Central Channel to Your Lower Tantieni 6: Stabilizing the Breath and Energy of Your Lower Tantien 7: Letting Your Breathing Drop From Your Chest to Your Belly 8: Breathing From the Sides of Your Body 9: Simultaneously Breathing From the Front and Sides 10: Lower Back and Kidney Breathing 11: Upper Back Breathing 12: Breathing Energy Into Your Lower Tantien Epilogue DISC 2: Introduction 1: Relaxing Your Breath 2: Feeling Your Breath 3: Counting Your Breaths 4: Feeling All Sensations When You Inhale and Exhale 5: Developing Continuous Awareness of Your Breath 6: Becoming Aware of the Fog of the Mind 7: The Importance of Releasing the Chest 8: Breathing Underneath the Ribs and Awareness of Emotions 9: Becoming Further Aware of Your Emotions 10: Fear and the Kidneys 11: The Upper Body and the Spine 12: Activating all Energies in the Physical and Etheric Body Epilogue

Please, I hope no one takes my comments as they are not intended. They are ONLY my comments based on my view. You can watch the form of D&T on youtube (though what some people are doing will just give you a good laugh). But there is footage of Bruce as well as his senior students that is worth checking out if you are interested. Remember there is the external shape/form and then there is what is going on inside of it. PLEASE ALWAYS REMEMBER CONTEXT. What CONTEXT is Bruce stating what he does about D&T from? Whether that is his use of "medical" qigong, its ability to heal cancer, or the 'easy' statement. Easy for WHOM? in what context? The co-ordination of the movements in D&T is, at times, more complex than Heaven & Earth neigong, and the jiben gong used in energy gates/spiralling energy body neigong etc. So why does Bruce say it is easy? As I posted I have been informed that the easy reference is NOT in relation to the form and movements of the set. It is a comment about it being qigong and therefore does not get as sophisticated with all the layers that CAN be put into the neigong sets. So the shape of the neigong is easier but as you add layer upon layer it becomes much much harder. I also think that given the greater freedom from Bruce's complex physical alignment requirements in his neigong sets, many that then learn D&T get a sigh of relief! But that CONTEXT is D&T compared to the neigong, not to other (non-Frantzis) qigong that purports to teach essentially the same aspects of qigong. I have watched many people become completely baffled by the co-ordination required by several of the movements in D&T, and I know people who have gone through learning it several times and still find it confusing. Now if you give it a go and find it easy, does that mean these people are wrong? No. It means some get on with it well and it 'fits' them and others do not. But having witnessed this, when asked, can I honestly answer with "yes D&T is easy to learn." No, I cannot. Bruce makes a good attempt at making things 'easy' to learn from his materials, but there is (as with anyone's) a very real danger of creating a much greater impression of what can and cannot be learned solely from such resources. This is also why Bruce only puts certain things in his books and dvds and will teach other things in person. I AM NOT SAYING that the book or dvd is worthless, but personally I think such things are only worth the investment as additional resources to learning from a decent teacher. Can you get something from them without a teacher, probably, but time with a teacher is far more worthwhile what ever it is they are teaching IMO. D&T is primarily taught to introduce some of the qi based elements, but they are also present in the neigong sets. The basic ones being projecting qi from laogong and connecting to and influencing energy lines in the body as well as the etheric body outside. But personally I have been taught qigong sets (outside of Bruce's system) that are much easier to learn that also teach you this, and the neigong sets also do this and can be used to focus upon these components too. So when I learned D&T I found the content helpful but didn't get on with the shape of it. It seemed overly complicated to me for what it was being used to teach. But as I said before I view it like marmite, more than any other of Bruce's sets I have seen a love it or hate from those that learn it So until you give it a go, how will you know? Best,

Depends if you get lost in them and find yourself doing what feels right. Best,

My personal choice would be the CD set. Bruce's steps vary a little from one product to the next, the chapter in 'energy gates' and the lessons in 'relax into your being' are probably the best written sources (the chapter on breathing from his Dragon & Tiger book used to be free as a downloadable pdf somewhere on his site or one of his sub-sites). The DVD is interesting but the CD pretty much brings all of it together and you can simply follow along or use mp3's to make a playlist of where you are at. I also prefer the progression on the CD which is not the same as the written sources or dvd. It starts with energetics, goes back to fill in the body and then rounds out with energetics again. But this is just my opinion. Best,

+1 You can't learn it from the book or dvd despite the illusion that you can. It's one of those grey areas. Like energy gate qigong, don't think the book is enough by a long shot. Find someone who can teach it to you. I know Bruce softened it from its apparently "Buddhist" origins, but the movement patterns I just found far too alien and I prefer the neigong approach rather than the qigong one (as per Bruce's definitions). By the way, when Bruce says it is "easy to learn" he means easy to learn in comparison to NEIGONG in that in the neigong you continue to sophisticate it by adding layer upon layer until what you are doing is fairly complex. It is NOT an easy qigong to learn, not when compared to plenty of others. And PLENTY of people find the shape far hadrer to learn than the shapes of his neigong sets, it is just that overall you will not go as deep with D&T and so it is "EASY", FWIW I view it like marmite given the reactions I've seen to it Best,

I never got on with it. A personality thing maybe, I intend to try it out again in a few years to see if things have shifted. I like his neigong, but never liked the movement of D&T. I like the qi work content just not the shell. Best,

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Thanks RV will check out the thread Best,

I know Susan (shaktimamma) has always, as long as I've known her (8? years), stressed this too, surrender and love. All real teachers seem to hold it as important and a key. But it appears to be something that expresses itself as a RESULT of correct practice, not a hint for behavioural modification Best,

Glad to hear you like it as well. If someone hadn't pointed it out to me with a hearty recommendation then I would never have got it, or even realised it existed. This is why, when I think it will be well received and not simply sniffed at, I pass on that recommendation. I agree %100 the actual information in the book is not well represented by the cover and the title, because of the impressions it creates. Which is simply that it appears to be just one of thousands of newage energy/sex books. Though as I posted above, if you read the whole book the title takes on quite a different meaning and actually makes much more sense. Primarily in what the author is actually referring to as 'the lover within'. It's just a hidden in plain sight thing. I simply suggest that if you find it worthwhile and valuable pass on the recommendation and help people look past the prejudices the cover and title can evoke. I also think it is worth pointing out that this book was originally written in 1986 and although it has been revised the author actually states that it is not the book she would write today if she was to write it. I think checking out where she is now is also worth it to help put the book in perspective. Best,

If you read the book the title makes sense and not in the way it first appears. But it is certainly not a book I'd read at work RV, I was actually going to recommend this to you when we were talking. I don't think the exercises themselves are so relevant for you, certainly not with how you've been getting on with SM neigong. I did feel you may like the understanding and approach of the book in its description and discussion of energy, energetic relationship, and boundaries etc. I think you'll like appendix B Best,

You're welcome. When you read something what you get from it is very dependent on where you are at the time, so recommendations can be hard. You can't expect someone else will benefit, at least not in the same way. I don't recommend it for the exercises (though I do like them), it is more the way she writes and explains the 'how' and the 'why' rather than simply the 'what', which can be found elsewhere. She writes from the approach of an understanding of and appreciation of energy and energetic relationship, not in teaching 'gongs and I found this useful. Like learning about the heart of art rather than having someone say "now this is how you paint in watercolour". Given her Tibetan teachers I am not surprised you find a familiarity to KAP. You've lost me there Is the recommendation of Paul Ekman http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Ekman which I posted not enough? (There is more about Julie's working with Paul towards the end of the book.) Hope you enjoy the rest of the book, as a supplementary book to get more out of a tradition it is one of the better books on energy I've seen. Best,

This is my two penneth for what they are worth. INTENT Many a martial system has turned to cultivation practises to make use of the training of INTENT. The system Ya Mu teaches simply cuts straight through the bullsh*t. There is also evidence of 'formless' forms of neigong being associated with martial arts in several countries going back a long way. Why? because of the freedom and PRESENCE to the moment. Simple answer Yiquan is Yiquan and SM standing neigong is SM standing neigong. David Yeh has provided a good basic difference between types of zhan zhuang. There are many ways to practice "standing" and they are done for different reasons. You have to look past the waixing (outer shape/form). The reality I would say is that until you practice a lot of standing SM neigong you will not know the benefits it could give your martial practice, everyone is different. After doing SM and GoT neigong for two days and when doing medical qigong on the third day I had my eyes opened to why santishi is practised the way it is in xingyi. I recalled comments made by Sun jian yun about why her father, Sun lu tang, changed the lead hand of santishi for practice. And at the time I had no intention regarding martial art I was doing my best to help heal someone. I can honestly say I learned more about the potentials of zhan zhuang in that moment than in months of practicing with martial teachers. So while Ya Mu does not teach martial arts, if you are studying them then it has the potential to help in unexpected ways. Best,

Is the best thing, just go without expectations. Best,

+1 You want to do what!? Ha ha

Ok, I am going to try again. Hopefully I won't lose the post this time . I don't feel age is as important as Being. If you believe in past lives then they would also be a factor. Ya Mu told me he prefers not to use culturally specific terms if possible and has been moving away from them. I am still in a place where understanding the Chinese terms used within Daoism is of interest, I simply try to understand their meaning via experience over the dictionary. Being (心 xin) is something I have slowly been becoming more and more aware of through practice. When I met Ya Mu his way of helping you to glimpse and open to "who you really" are was an even deeper experience of clarity of what I have come to understand as "Being" or your true self, that part of you that is you without all the crap that we accumulate. I have always liked the following; "Remember that meditation is already there inside you.... it is not something waiting to be learned. It is not something additional to who you are now.... (it) is the experience of who you already are.... it is how the world looks when you stand still and see it for what it is instead of distorted into a blur by your own perpetual motion." David Fontana For me SM neigong does this with spades on. After the workshop I was re-reading an alchemical text and the following jumped out at me, and so I post it here in case it is of interest. "All of the so-called higher states of consciousness one reads about are the result of the presence of certain energies in a person. Without these energies being present, the higher states won't be there. The process of developing and using these higher energies is what the art known as alchemy teaches. The immutable law of such teaching as ours is that one should balance knowledge with the level of one's Being. Knowledge..must be on the same level as Being. If it is not, the data will seem too abstract or will not seem applicable to some. This is due to their not yet having developed Being to understand and be conscious of the uses for that data. It is not the endless hours of practice alone that produces results. It is the level of one's Being also. Doing something successfully depends from one's Being, not the reverse. We have all seen examples where one person seemed to learn and perform a skill quickly and with ease, while another would struggle and seem to take forever. This is this law in action. True internal art then, deals totally with changes in Being. Old-timers studying with us always say that after a period of practice they can go back and re-read the lessons and gain still more insight. This is one way to show yourself if you are growing in this art. The one drawback to teaching Westerners is that their education is totally devoid of any training that explains this concept regarding Being to them....The Western student needs to develop an understanding of Being...Eastern students see things differently and have less need for defining Being as they are often [already] aware" Anon adept of 'Golden Light from the Heavens' monastic order For those reading, please keep in mind I am but a student of Ya Mu's and my thoughts are my own. All the best,