寒月 Hanyue

Joeblast Thankyou for the kind words : ) Cameron, Stigweard Personally i agree, i think it is harder to remain in the witness state and let things be, given the concept of the body, mind, qi and Shakti as having an 'intelligence' of their own (in various ways). And that we should just stop obstructing them from doing what they should be rather than trying to then get them to do what we want, like we know what that should that be. But then guiding qi has its place when there is a specific reason for it, healing seems to be one. Many forms of qigong are based on dao yin, but then there is again a difference between using a calm mind and movement to 'guide' qi, and sitting still and using the yi to move qi. But then i suppose that also depends upon how your translate 'yi' and the concepts of using it in relation to qi. Even Micheal Winn has said he teaches dong gong (one of which is a form he learned from B Frantzis) to open the MCO as just sitting there and mentally doing it was found to not be so effective for his students (see his website). I think once you HAVE 'qi', so to speak ie opened the body and the mai then stillness and moving the qi is different, like patting a basketball spinning on your finger to keep it moving is different from trying to get it going. So both seem to have their place, just for different things. I think both have their potential draw backs for 'bad' practice or not going anywhere too. The main one regarding conscious circulation is, as you say Stigweard, a "phenomena junkie" chasing rainbows and thinking that what you have experienced is more than it really is. The 'Ch'an' approach of course also has it's own potential pitfalls, and can just as easily lead to false understandings of achievement. There is much in the classical and modern literature about mistaking being 'halfway up the mountain' for standing on the peak. I suppose that is why have your experiences 'confirmed' by those further along the path is important? All the best,

Hi to all taobums : ) Have ended up on the forum numerous times when having a nosey on the web, so thought i'd join. I studied anthropology at University, and have been involved in several martial arts over the years. I am currently focussed upon Daoist neigong and meditation.

Wow talk about thread drift Isn't appreciation of 'context' in regards as to who said what, when, why, and to whom important? Personally I've found Bodri's translations of Master Nan's work varies drastically, and my reading of his work appears to contradict Master Nan as translated elsewhere on occasion. Bodri is a little blunt at times and seems to court putting things in a way as to cause a reaction. Tao and Longevity is a preferred read in my opinion. As i understand it, Master Nan speaks in the context of spiritual achievement (define that as you will), so his comments relate to that. Comments that may seem to deride qigong, are in regards to such practices that are great for health (and other things) but will not provide spiritual achievement. It is not that Master Nan is slagging these practices off completely, but pointing out their shortcomings as RELATED to a specific use/aim. Something that is worth pointing out, as there are people that think all these things work the same and will get you to the same place, which as we all know is not true. Comments regarding neigong found in nejiaquan fall under the same misunderstanding, neigong as needed for martial prowess is not needed for spiritual attainment, confusing these practices with those that will help you with spiritual achievement is what Master Nan's 'writings' are about. Everything has its place, they all overlap in some places, sometimes more than others, but understanding what you are doing, what it is for and how to achieve that is something that i would have thought everyone on this forum would appreciate. Of course there is also nothing wrong with a varied path, as many follow and emphasise different things at different times in their lives. Use a hammer when a hammer is necessary and not when swatting a fly...? As for 'circulation' or not, again think context. Again, Master Nan is talking about spiritual achievement (something i will not claim any knowledge of, but given Master Nan's experience i will certainly listen to what he has to say). Master Nan takes the approach that if you cultivate correctly then you will have increased energy, and energy moves, it flows it does this naturally, so why do you need to move it? Here we can take the position that you either have energy and it is flowing through the orbits/channels etc or you do not (meaning 'higher' cultivated energy for those that will say 'everyone has energy, you are born with it'). If you do not, then with 'circulation' practices all you will be trying to do is move something you don't have through intent/will through these orbits, which Master Nan think is a waste of time as he feels that is not the way to get the energy in the first place. So you are better off focusing on what will get you that energy whilst also moving you further along your intended goal. If you do already have the energy and it is flowing/moving, then per spiritual achievement as the goal, you do not need to 'play' with it as this all too easily becomes a distraction from further development, energy being a by-product of the path not the goal. Moving the energy around and playing with it if you have it again can have applications, healing, magical, or combative, each of these is useful given a specific context, if you do not have that context then it is a waste of time. A 4x4 beach buggy is great on dunes, not so great for commuting : ) The WAY you are learning and WHAT you are learning will layer and allow you to develop in a SPECIFIC way, in a world of choice gone made it is easy for people to miss what they are really after through practicing something that takes them somewhere else. Are these practices then wrong, no they were just used for the wrong context, intentionally or not. I'm sure i am not alone in having experienced this! it is part of the learning curve in finding out just what you DO want and where you ARE trying to go, let alone HOW to get there. It is probably why so many masters have practiced a wide array of things at different times in their lives. Now the Ch'an/Zen school has a particular way of aiming at and defining spiritual achievement, as do all other schools. Again context comes into importance, many schools like to teach a range of abilities and skills as you move along the path, others will not always see the relevance of them, and some may even become distracted by them and not go far along the path. But that is the nature of the different traditions no? Debate it all you want, change it you will not. I don't know of a qigong/neigong teacher who didn't advocate stillness of mind/cns as being the key to switching on to your qi to get any real juice before doing anything else. Otherwise it can just be 'mental masterbation'. Visualization is about becoming aware of what is happening and then deepening that, more than trying to 'make things happen', if you're not quiet how can you hear? All the best, B