寒月 Hanyue

After years, this is still a close favourite for more reasons than I could say...

Ah, shiiit....cats outta da bag now

Pm'd

Hey Mike, Yeah, it clears up a lot of stupid 'debate'. I will pm you what the other "non-Chinese" told me This is a big problem. Same name, referring to a different thing. If you let go of the need for definitives and simply stick to one way of viewing things I found it makes things much easier Sam says, if you want to listen to FM20 why are you tuning into FM40!!? Best,

Did I say that? oops if I did. Actually you might be surprised where I put the zhongdantian. It isn't a debate, simply a different system, which is another matter entirely and would hardly be helpful to the thread

Lets see if I'm allowed to send a short version. You can cut open and examine a "body". You cannot cut open and examine a "soma". Thomas Hanna calls the soma the 'living body', or the 'body experienced from within'. Soma and body are two very different but inter-related things. A body without a soma is a corpse. A soma without a body is a spirit. Dantian, qi, qi mai, chakras etc etc exist as felt and tangible experiences within or from the soma, not the body. You cannot find these things in the body, simply because all of the parts and the interconnected relationships involved are too complex, it is not a one-one scenario. It is easier to look at subjectively felt phenomena that arises from the synergistic functions and give them a name "dantian". The fact that it is a 'function' rather than 'structure' is why location is relevant but not in the way many think or feel. The "kua" in moving neigong or martial art is the same. We can simplistically call it 'hip' in English, but if we go with the teachings of songkua, zuokua etc you will find that you may have a 'hip' but not be able to use your kua! Using the kua requires an amazing amount of synergisitc relationships throughout the neuro-muscular system, not just the immediate structure of the pelvis and hip socket. The feeling of correctly using your hip joints, ie a certain potential function of them, is what the Chinese arts are after. I say potential, because you can actually train or develop your hips to function in other ways in other body disciplines, and they are very different. This is to give a more physical example. Dantian is the same in my view. This is why I doubt scientists will ever make a machine that dectects "qi". The only thing that will is a living body. The fact that these phenomena are reproducable experiences is why people continue to pursue such things after thousands of years, unless they, myself and most of this board are simply deluded, which is always a possibility Can you 'find' the subconscious inside? Can you 'find' love inside? But we can 'see' and 'feel' these in ourselves and others, and indirectly measure their presence. Same with dantian. So what IS a dantian? "place where energy storage and transmutation occurs". [courtesy of Yamu] I think is the as good as if not the best short description of what it is that you will find. Now we have a description of the function, so now we need to consider the "location" and why are the attributed locations where they are if this is the function that relates to those locations? Since many seem more comfortable with physiological descriptions. A couple of sources I trust have pointed out that what the Daoists call dantian, in classical medicine were called "jiao", or warmers/burners/heaters. Each of the sanjiao (three burners) are associated with various organs, not simply one structure*. They also relate to the skeletal cavities. So what could it be about the skeletal cavities, the organs and the relationships therein, that the Chinese kept seeing that they kept creating these categories? And then what could it be like to experience and FEEL these relationships.....from within, ie "soma" not "body"..... Best * Both sources include the legs with the xiajiao (lower burner), and the head with the shangjiao (upper burner), which is not how most TCM texts discuss them.

Well I tried but the forum just ate and lost my post twice!! So something out there doesn't want it going out....

Well, of course Experience is what matters. But guidance helps practice, which leads to experience. Problems arise if you are studying mehtod A, but reading about and thinking about method B Thank you.

"The Tan Tien and the chakras are different although they have similar functions and effects." Master Nan Huaijin Tao & Longevity pg 11 Similar but different "Are Chakras and Tan Tiens the same? Not exactly, although both terms denote major energy centers of the human body. The seven chakras of the yogic system (or nine, if you count the chakras above the head) are primarily the gateways to different levels of human consciousness. They only tangentially influence human physical health, through psychological and psychic interlinks. The three tantiens of the Chinese system are also gateways to the different levels of human consciousness. However, the lower tantien also directly controls all the energy channels, both major and minor, which govern and regulate all aspects of physical health. Trying to understand the similarities and differences between both systems intellectually is an immensely complex task. From all sorts of functional points of view, key points of both the tantien and chakra systems are sometimes the same, sometimes similar, and sometimes completely different. It is best, at least initially, to study each system entirely on its own terms. After you have experientially studied both systems equally in depth, the connections and interlinks between them will become obvious." Bruce Frantzis Also... Some old related threads; http://thetaobums.com/topic/1563-sacrum-vs-dan-tian/ http://thetaobums.com/topic/1566-subtle-body-anatomy-of-tan-tiens-and-chakras/

Whats going to really bake your noodle later is, "how are dantian and weiqi related?" But then, we'd have to debate the crap out of just what "weiqi" is first All I will say, is that whether the terms above are used or not, the experience and the teaching guiding you to that are often the same. Sorry, is that too cryptic? The Chinese perspective is not a definitional one, Lao Zi chapter one! It is relational, via function. So any term is a function, not a "thing". And as per Lao Zi, if we can only understand left because we have a right, an up because of down and so forth. So dantian, "on its own", devoid of relationship to anything else doesn't make sense. It is in the inter-connected weaves of the relationships that we come to understand these concepts. So, what is related to dantian, and how can you use those relationships to better feel experience and understand dantian, via embodied rather intellectual knowledge? Best,

I'm not going to get into the 'debate' that has emerged, that appears separate from the intent of the thread itself. Dan tian, is one of those terms that everyone uses and yet if you ask 10 people what it is, you'll get 11 answers (sorry I know I've used that expression before, but I like it ). That is why on a pragmatic level, I listen to my teachers explanations, use that to weigh up my own experiences based on practice, and nothing else. Of course I have past experiences and did much reading before I found those teachers, so let me digress a little. Dan tian and chakras. I know several American qigong teachers who use the terms interchangeably. Most of them however, have more of a background in Buddhist (usually esoteric) teachings than Daoist. Bruce Frantzis, despite all his foibles, has certainly depth of experience in Daoist practice (as well as Buddhist, and Indian Yoga), he says that chakras and dantian are not quite the same thing. If he is not a valid person to cite, the late Master Nan Huaijin, someone also very well versed in Daoist and Buddhist practice, also states that the dan tian and chakra are not the same thing. My direct personal experience of dan tian and of working with chakra have led me to feel they are not the same thing, but I have a long way to go, so who knows how I'll feel in 20 or more years. Now, location, I know I know, you didn't what to go there, but it is relevant I promise . Today everyone talks of shangdantian, zhongdantian, and xiadantian. Qigong has become largely synthesised into a uniformity, everyone knows where these are. All I will say, is that I have two teachers from two 'classical' lineages [meaning they easily trace back past the invention of modern "qigong" and much of all that has happened since] that are unrelated, that not only teach something different to the usual version of "qigong" above but teach a virtually identical approach to understanding what a dantian is, as well as the locations associated with them. Technically the one lineage delineates five dantian, if we are talking "microcosmic location". But both agree about the "macrocosmic" dantian [my terms made up for this post, not lineage teachings]. Location is in fact tied the experience of them, and in my feeling, why they are not the same as chakras, but that might just be me. As for what it is, and I will say this here as it is no secret given my teachers have this information out in the public sphere. I will pass on both descriptions as I like both, and feel they compliment each other. Dantian is the 'deep yin place' of something. Apart from being a reference to only 'the deep yin' place within a skeletal cavity, the marrow is also the "dantian" of your limbs. Dantian is a "place where energy storage and transmutation occurs". Further to this, when or if your shen goes travelling the dantian can be very important I also like the picture JB posted in post # 36. Wrapping your head around your teachers teachings and how it relates to and aids your progress in their methods is all that is important. It doesn't matter if someone else thinks something else. Best,

Indeed. Which is why such things are taught. However the two are still mixed and confused by the majority of people. Given the forum and e-list posts by a lot of people, and even the writings and teachings of many "meditation" teachers : ( It turns out one teacher I knew did it to see who was really paying attention! There is a reciprocal relationship. You can enter the cycle at either point. But neither has to be an either or situation, but shhh its a secret ; )

There is only yiqi 一氣 (one qi). As TM explains the Chinese observed nature, and its patterns of movements and change. These rhythms, cycles, and flows, alluded to by natural phenomenon such as wind (feng) and water (shui) are 'qi'. Is there a limit to the cycles throughout the Universe? Well, the Chinese figured it all went so big you couldn't tell, and so named it Dao, the thing so big and vast you can't label or name it becuase any thing you are looking at is only a part of something more, something greater. Is there a limit to your attention span to observe qi, yes. But this is different. Best,

The simplest, yet hardest and most elusive

Did I? I just view it as Daoist. To me there is only one thing that is being pointed to. If a system alludes to a part of that thing, like taiji, wuxing, sancai, bagua etc then to me that is simply their xuanmen or gateway into the mystery of the Dao. It doesn't mean the other apsects are less relevant in any way. We all need to find a gateway, our gateway. I think we'll all be working on it for some time, there are always higher levels as my teacher says. I was not inferring to focus upon your breath, others maybe. For me this makes little sense. If you place your attention upon your breathing you are doing something (youwei), if you are doing something you can be distracted from doing something when doing something else, maintaining such an active split awareness is effort, and effort needs energy to be sustained. This means it is hard to maintain over time, implying an aspect of endurance. And so the whole thing becomes an endurance test. Now, that being said, I will note that many cultivation schools actually advise and use this very training, for this very reason! Building endurance capacity (physical, mental, emotional, energetic etc) There is always a reason. However, unless this is your aim or reason, then this approach may not give you what you actually want. If you want a 24/7 meditation, then first you need to distinguish "genuine" meditation from expanded consciousness states emerging from physiological manipulation. For myself, I spent years with the view that a "meditation" state was an expanded or altered state of consiousness, something that felt different, something that had something in it. A sense of oneness, a sense of bliss, a sense of serenity, an expanded awareness of qi, something. Of course I missed the point that it is most often described as still or empty. How can something emerging from the unmanifested, a place before 'things' have 'something' within it? True meditation, so I have been taught is something you do not do (cannot do, it is non-doing), but is a deep state that you can fall into but is hard to maintain. Preceeding that is a less deep absorption into full awareness of the present moment. While the deep state of say "true" meditation is something that can only really be achieved while still (unless, well, you are very high level), the preceeding state can be maintained 24/7. Given that it is this state that is in fact the place from where any and all 'breath' watching practices should occur, it is not tied to any active doing. It is in fact a passive state (wuwei), not in the zombie sense, but in a not interfering sense. How can doing anything then distract you from this place? Since you are not splitting awareness or effort to do two things simultaneously, you are doing what you are doing, but from a place of full awareness of the present moment of the moment. Is this not meditation 24/7?? And yet, why is entering and staying in this state so hard? Well I have found entering it is not hard, to my surprise not hard at all. I just didn't have a reference point or know what I was looking for. The story of the guy searching for keys under the street lamp, not because that is where he dropped them, but because that is where the light is (so he can see), is relevant I feel. However even if you can go there, staying there, well that is another thing entirely. The world of 10,000 things is an alluring place My feeling, I hope you are able to find what you are looking for Less time on da bums!? I hear you on that Best,

A Himalayan yogi born into a family of yogi's (in what is now pakistan) who studied with many well respected teacher of different yogas, who began teaching at his teachers request around or after the age of 50, who taught yoga at different levels depending upon the individuals infront of him, and who worked for decades to be able to help a wide range of people with his knowledge, who never charged for teaching, never stopped learning, and died over a hundred years of age. Yeah, thats "commercial self made yoga" I'm done here...

Which traditional yoga methods? Are you sure they are all so safe? A friend and teacher of mine was traditionally (in teacher-disciple relationship) taught a lineage of Himalayan yoga. His teacher was one of Yogi Bajan's teachers and greatly influenced what has become known as "kundalini yoga" in the West. His teacher synthesised a 'modern' yoga from many classical yogas as a vehicle for modern people, and to make yoga accessible to a greater variety of people. Why? Because he saw that many were hurting and damaging themselves with the classical yoga. So he came up with a safer entry point. Please note I did not say something better. The idea being you can graduate to the classical yoga after and more safely. Though many simply found no need to do so. His method also resulted in kundalini, though he didn't make a big deal out of it and simply saw it as a consequence of correct practice. Why mention this at all? One I simply do not believe that older automatically equals better, which is not to say that that is what you are saying either. Yes the benefit of a genuine lineage is that the teachings and methods have stood the test of time. But it also depends greatly upon the orientation and aims of the lineage as to what their methods will do for and to you over time. There are many yogas that are intentionally damaging and dangerous in their pursuit of spiritual attainment. Secondly, I met my friend through Doc Morris. He was a friend of Doc's, and respected and acknowledged Doc's attainments. Doc was Doc, nothing more nothing less, warts n all. Doc did have 'lineage', but (partly because he was American) his intention was to teach the 'good stuff' more openly, without making people wait years (or even decades) for it, or without having to give their life to a guru. In the Chinese traditions I have been told by one of my own teachers that there are basically two reasons for changing the name of something, it is a true yin-yang of Chinese culture. You either believe you have changed and improved what you were taught beyond your teachers and so change the name. Or conversely, you feel you have not reached your teachers level or expectation and do not wish to embarass them or cause them loss of face. Many in the Bujinkan saw Doc's Hoshin as him being American and "empire building" as many other American Bujinkan teachers had done. This is erroneous thinking, especially as Doc had developed the original Hoshin syllabus before finding or beginning to study ninpo in the Bujinkan. Doc largely taught (both the martial and esoteric) under the banner of Hoshin and not his lineages to avoid politics and embarassing his teachers. However he always pushed his students towards the traditions that suited them so they could take their studies 'further'. Of course you can argue and debate over the efficacy of Doc's attempts to do this for his students and that of my friends Himalayan Yogi teacher. However, the purpose and intent behind this is largely the same and had nothing to do with anything else. Teachers of any age of any culture have done similar if we look at the histroical record, some more successfully than others, but isn't that always the way. As for Kundalini syndrome and KAP, all the primary teachers of KAP are part of traditional lineages, and are very well versed in a mulitude of kundalini related things. Their approach to avoiding and dealing with kundalini syndrome is one of the best I have seen. And while I certainly haven't seen everything, I've seen quite a bit. I post this not to convince you, or change your mind about anything. I simply have experience and information that is relevant to the questions posed in your post. Everyone needs to follow their heart and what makes sense to them. All the best,

I have this too. I liked it overall. I am not a fan of the attempts at acupuncture protocols using the qijing bamai in this book. They are way too wildly esoteric and rely on a TCM model of point selection that I find simply odd in comparison to the more pragmatic classical medicine I've been taught. But that is me, others may love them. I found that much of the information was available elsehwere but usually dotted around, so having it all in one place was nice. Of course there are little bits that are rare or new. I have however previously taken the time to personally translate Zhang's 'bamai jing' (it aint all that long) so as to better understand these qimai, so I am quite familar with much of the available material. The diagrams are (credited, and with permission) from JAJ's medical qigong textbooks. The neidan surprised me too, I haven't tried it, but I did like his take on it. It reminded me a lot of MacRitchie's "Eight Extraordinary Meridians Qigong" ( I haven't bothered doing a side by side) but they both originally studied under Mantak Chia so that might be why.

I don't want to derail Mike's thread into a debate about a book. So if you really want to get into it beyond what I say below, start a thread and if I have time I'll participate, or pm me. "This book deals the general configuration of the qigong movement, overlooking regional differences as well as the great diversity of practices and denominations. It would have been impossible to describe each method and group; I can only attempt to present a broad picture of the movement as a whole." Palmer pg 27 I think he does a good job of this. As well as anyone could. But the picture painted is necessarily inaccurate due to the constraints of such a sociological survey. It misses out important figures and paints others in a light that is not entirely inaccurate or quite accurate either. The more you know about many of the people who get mentions the more you will appreciate what I mean. Overall however it is a good read and well worth reading for those interested in how qigong became qigong. Best,

Though one of the few social-historians to mention Master Wang, Palmer doesn't say much at all, and while I enjoyed his book 'Qigong Fever' (and others), he is only ever telling a part of the story (which he acknowledges since you can't do anything else), and sometimes even that is somewhat off.

Hoshin Budo Ryu's Shihan fest event is over this weekend. I have no idea if Santi has gone or is involved but it may be why e-mails are are a little slow. I don't know when the OP e-mailed him, so can't comment on that. Best,

So is Bruce's version of cloud hands It's seriously complex [please note, I said BRUCE'S version. Many teach cloud hands in a much more simple manner]

Everyone learns differently. It is not that you cannot learn from a book, however you might want to bear two things in mind; as has been mentioned already, a book offers you no guidance or feedback your current understanding and experience of the subject will filter what you see and read and get from a book Now if you have teacher, the resources can support that study. Unless the teachings and the book are from different parts of the spectrum, in which case you may become confused. I agree that the two books mentioned in the OP are good books. However having met a number of people who turned up to trainings with Bruce having only ever studied from his book, I can honestly say they never really understood the material. Does that mean you cannot get anything valuable from it at all? No, but it usually is far from the mark. One of the main issues I know some of Bruce's students to have with his books is that they imply you can learn far more from them than you actually can. With Energy-Gates neigong I recommend looking at the standing, breathing, and internal form aspects, ie the Daoist neigong (outer dissolving). The moving aspects you truly cannot get from this book alone IMHO. The swings in particular are very hard to do correctly. Yes I know many do them anyway, but what they are doing is kinda pointless or certainly a far cry from what Bruce is pointing to and why those exercises are in this set. If you want to give them a go however, apart from watching people perform the set on youtube, Dan Kleinman has been putting up a lot of helpful resources related to Bruce's teachings. He also has advice regarding getting the most from the Energy-gates book. http://dankleiman.com/videos/ I also agree on the process laid out by Dr Jahnke in 'Healing promise of qi'. Even if you do not follow the exercises he gives, for someone with no teacher what he lays out removes a lot of mystery. Hope this helps,

If you are maintaining a 'meditative state' through physiological manipulation, then as soon as you stop that manipulation the state will stop. If you enter into a state of aware absorption and presence, it doesn't matter what you are doing. The two are not the same thing. Many teach the former as a way to have you fall into the latter, but it is not garanteed. However changing the physiology (breath, heart rate, muscle tonus etc) can develop an easier platform for many, and can support sustaining the latter state. This is the difference between xian-tian and hou-tian. There is in many ways nothing to do. You need to stop doing, to stop sending your awareness outwards so that you forget yourself. Let the world come to you. I'm working on this too. Best,