寒月 Hanyue

When Doc developed Hoshin he gathered a series of meditation and qigong techniques to teach his students. These were drawn from his experiences. He used his students to sound out and refine these methods. The things that worked stayed, the stuff that didn't was dropped. Over time a core was developed. This is Hoshin Tao Chi Kung. The Chi Kung of the Hoshinroshi Ryu. Years later when Doc met and began teaching with Susan Carlson (Shaktimama on this forum), they developed a workshop for awakening kundalini that drew from both of their experiences, yet largely used the 'core' practices from Doc. This became the Kundalini Awakening Process (KAP). Hoshin Tao Chi Kung varied over the years as Doc taught different groups, but the 'core' remained. At some point he had some students develop it more fully. This was further developed again later on by other students at Doc's request. So depending on who learned with who and when, what they will have learned as "Hoshin Tao Chi Kung" will vary. Though everyone would have learned the core and most important methods. The Meditation Mastery tapes/cds are the early recordings of many of the original and core Hoshin Tao Chi Kung. What people learned also depended a little on how well they knew Doc and how long they studied with him, he primarily came from Japanese Budo background remember. KAP was later further developed at Doc's request by Santi and Tao, they refined stuff, added stuff from Umma Tantra and so on. This is the KAP program as it is today. In all fairness to Santi and Tao they really put a lot in to the new program to make it what it is, taking Doc's stuff and with his guidance finding a better way in for people. KAP comes from Hoshin Tao Chi Kung, but is its own animal. Some of the ingredients are the same, some are different but really it is the recipe that is different. And the real benefit from the program is the contact time with the teachers who pass on the nuances and many aspects of 'oral' tradition (kuden) that Doc never wrote down. I don't know of any better teachers of Doc Morris esoteric stuff than the KAP guys, and I have studied with all the "Hoshin" groups that arose out of his death. Sometimes it is the why and how more than the what that is needed.

入前門 ru qianmen Enter [through] the front gate. This is a Daoist saying that means 'we have a front gate and you are welcome to come in, please do not try and sneak around and in a side or back door'. Qianmen in Chinese also refers to having an honest and upright approach. Michael has opened the front gate, he is a very warm caring and open teacher of the lineage that he holds from Master Wang and all it contains. He is also a very gracious and patient teacher. If you enter the front gate and do so honestly, what else is there? If the lineage doesn't appeal, it doesn't appeal. But if it does, approach it honestly and through the front gate. Best, Back to hibernation and lurk mode

Your logic is based on fallacy and the marketting that gets thrown around, to be a little direct and blunt. There are two related points here. One. Every system has a point at which it can collapse if pushed. The energy-body is no different. However since most are not directly aware of their energy-body, they tend to approach the practice of qigong without that awareness. Some over do it and cause a system collapse resulting in fatigue. In a similar vein to the people who like to feel the effort, burn and fatigue from a "good workout" there are people who will wear such badges of honour in energy circles. Usually with the proviso that to get 'better' you have to 'go through' it. To each their own. There are also indigenous practices that intentionally cause energetic collapse to help break the spirit from the body for various reasons. Detoxing is different. Detoxing will cause fatigue as the body expunges the toxins. Certain practices that really get the circulation and blood going, couples with a strong massage of the organs can cause a heavier detox. This is not what I am talking about regarding 'energetic collapse'. Two. Depending on who you are, and your energy habits, certain practices done a lot may cause a system collapse. Some may not want to hear that but it is the way of things. If I was to attempt to run 10k I know I'd have a physical body collapse! As with most physical activity most people do not care about what the state of their body is before attempting that activity, nor the possible effect it may have on them. It is why running is still one of the most innjury related activities. But try pointing out to a keen runner that their gait and pre-conditions are damaging them. Trust me on that, even when they come to you in clinic with complaints they still can't 'hear' you. Energy-body activity is no different. While one person can go to a qigong class and say do 3 hours of mico-cosmic orbit practice and experience nothing but elation, someone else will find it begins to move and brings up much stagnation and will feel pretty crap fairly quickly, another will get the same benefit as the first person from 30 minutes. Knowing when enough is enough for YOU is often ommitted, people then get the impression "well they said it was 'good' for me, so if I do MORE, it's even better.". But everything has a point of diminishing returns, and going beyond that can lead to collapse and fatigue. You mentioned doing 2-3 hours. The opposite to all the above is causing bouts of 'mania' and insomnia that is as though the person has drunk a pint of esspresso! Doing this, usually will lead to a backlash of fatigue. Qi-gong = energy work management Best,

It's called energetic collapse and can be triggered in numerous ways. Over doing certain energy practices will certainly do it. Its kinda like hitting the gym really heavy and then not being able to move because of muscle soreness. "There is a big difference between losing your energy through a habit of collapse and having a consistent energetic connection with earth. One leads to fatigue." I do feel that depedning on your habits, certain 'qigong' may exacerbate a pre-condition, in the same sense physical activity can. Given the massive variances available in approaches and methods of qigong practice, it may simply be a case of 'not the right fit for you', at least at this point in time. We all have 'energy-body' "habits" same as we have physical body ones. To me, learning qigong is to become aware of these habits and to lessen or drop the dysfunctional ones. Best,

What is your hand, or arm? How different are peoples arms? What about their experience of them? I've known labourers, bouncers, martial artists (of various persuasions), farmers, gym rats, all people with 'developed' arms, but all through very different means, some intentional, others not. Why are there various descriptions of 'dantian'? Is it because it is esoteric and so hard to define? No. It is no different than the above. Different people and different 'approaches' will yield different development and different 'experience' of YOU. Explanations and descriptions serve the training of a method, nothing more. I listen to my direct experience, to my teachers, and to the lineage. The latter informs my experience, it doesn't dictate it. I have not seen in print anyone fully discuss dantian as I've had it taught to me. And the 'pop' qigong books are more often than not quite different in their approaches. Yet both Ya Mu's teachings and my classical Chinese medicine teacher pass on remarkably similar explanations, I wonder why that is? Best,

No, he died during the cultural revolution. Hu Yao Zhen 胡耀貞(1879-1973)

I just found out that Farrell has released a 2nd edition of 'Magical Pathworking: Techniques of Active Imagination' with a changed title called 'Magical Imagination: The Keys to Magic' which was published last month. "Based on Nick Farrell's previous book Magical Pathworking, this greatly revised and expanded edition includes new chapters which further develop the techniques of pathworking for magical and spiritual purposes." They say greatly expanded, but the number of pages is only about 30 more. There are however two new chapters, chapter 7 Imagination as a magical tool, and chapter 8 Objective pathworking. What is not so clear is how much of the text he has changed or revised. In the Introduction Farrell writes; "When I wrote the first edition of this book more than a decade ago, I used psychological ideas a lot more than I do now." He then address the limitations he found and explains how his views have changed. He has then updated a nd revised the work to "open the techniques for a more magical and spiritual purpose." http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=n5zXfosCH2MC&printsec=frontcover&dq=Magical+Imagination:+The+Keys+to+Magic&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PCr0UY_RAeLB0gX-iICQDA&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Magical%20Imagination%3A%20The%20Keys%20to%20Magic&f=false Personally I do not think this disqualifies the original edition. I actually find looking at the personal evolution of someone very helpful. And of course depending on who you are, and where you are, you could find either edition more or less helpful due to what you need at the time of reading it. Best,

Thanks mate, Yes it was helpful, and you actually hit the nail on the head as far as i'm concerned, and your experience reflects mine. I was introduced to the approach in a Western tradition, and I struggled with the rigidity of it. Whenever I tried to go one place I'd end up somewhere else. At the time I didn't have the understanding to grasp what was going on. Years later I found many of my experiences to be confirmed, by reading the accounts of someone else and finding it was like reading my own journal! Doc Morris work was better for me, but I still found it a little too structured. But that is me. I have always been a 'natural' with this side of the work. I know Doc' ninpo teacher Hayes teaches this work too, but Doc always blended things and made them his own. When I revisted the place I used I was shocked to find that the changes that had occured in my inner place were reflected in the actual location, again it was great confirmation but still surprising! Talking with Ya Mu about the similar aspects of his lineage has been refreshing, since it is more inline with the natural path. Though I don't use intent to go anywhere thesedays. If I go I go, if not I don't. Thanks again, I like the look of Nick Farrell's writings on his site and blog, will bear him in mind

Looked up the author, found this on his blog and I like it, humour with truth I think it goes beyond Hermetics, hence crossing that out of the title. What sort of stereotypical hermetic student are you? Hermetic groups are packed with lots of different types of people, but you start to notice a few stereotypes. Here is my list, it is not complete and not to be taken seriously. The TouristThe Tourist joins lots of different groups and never settles with one. They can be trying their hands at Tantra at one moment and crystals the next. They never get anywhere and would be better off being muggles. They have strong opinions about the niceness of the world because they never tend to hang around long enough to see its dark-side. The Pendant Do not tend to stay long in esoteric groups because none of them match their exacting standards. Feel that a group is defined by the punctuation in its course material and will often ask questions that they already know the answer too. Will get pissy if the answer comes back as something they are not expecting. Most likely to be thrown out of a group by a frustrated group leader fed up with having to explain why when he provided the complete secrets of the infinity he boldly split an infinitive. The Intellectual These are people who believe that the esoteric and spiritual path can be understood on the volume of books and intellectual study. They often do very well in groups until they prove unable to do any practical works of magic. They will hold onto their “correct way” because it has always been done like that and quote you chapter and verse to back themselves up. The Grade HunterOften masons, they believe that they will somehow be improved by going through the next initiation. They will often do the minimum work to get them to the next grade as fast as possible. They always fail because grades are a reflection of reality not the reality itself. Even the best initiations only open doors which it is up to the student to go through. If you don’t go through them it does not matter how many grades or sashes you have. The FundamentalistThis person looks for assurance in the literal interpretations of magic and the teachings of an Order. They are critical of anyone who they feel do not met the same literal standards. Often they are looking at occultism for a replacement for the discredited family religion. They get very cross and let down when their teacher challenges them to think out of the box or point out that a system evolves. The “born leader” This person wants to run their own group. They will join another group in the hope of either taking it over or to get enough members for their own Order who they will stage coup. They will push for accelerated promotion and will often spend their time undermining the leadership when they think they are out of earshot. Often they will end up running a group but will lack the ability or training because they have not focused on the necessary self-development work first. If they do not join another group they will often claim a high grade and hope it is never challenged by their own order. Unfortunately, like the grade hunter, they will never hang around long enough to get training. The hewer of wood and drawer of water These are service oriented people who volunteer their services to build. They are absolutely brilliant to have from an organisational point of view because they can be relied on to make the group work. However from a magical point of view this lack of self-confidence makes it difficult for them to progress. The “eternal student” These are another useful person to have, up to a point. These are the people who study and work very hard. They always have questions and are considered a “model student.” But the group has to work to make sure that such a student moves out of this phase otherwise they will stay in it. Their normal state is to fear that they will stop learning if they are placed in a position of responsibly. Normally eternal students end up being shafted by their order or teachers so that they are forced out of this state and have to find their own contacts and apply what they know. Teachers often find eternal students difficult to deal with because they always remember what they say and quote it back to them. The Coaster This person shows up, does the minimum of work, hardly contributes, but end up staying for a long period of time. They can be relied on in so much that a group needs them for the numbers. The couple These are people who always show up together and are usually a husband or wife. Only one of them is really interested, the other one is coming along to keep an eye on them. If one leaves the other always does, if one is unreliable, so is the other one. If the couple breaks up, it is rare that either of them stay. Belonging to the group appears to be part of both of their lives. The weirdo A group usually has a weirdo, who is the outsider’s outsider. They often bring in some unusual energy and can bring in some odd questions. However they are usually distant from the group and have their own contacts. The frequently disappear for long periods of time and never really explain why. Group members suggest they might have been kidnapped by Aliens or fairies during such periods. The politician This person joins usually because they like the idea of a group to play with. Once inside they get very interested in the dynamics of the group rather than magic and start to form cliques or play off different elements of the group. They are generally useless from a magical point of view and better off getting rid of. However by the time that they are revealed, they are usually embedded. They often work with the “born leaders” but will abandon them if their star sinks. The self-appointed teacher This person is the Paul of Tarsus to any esoteric teacher’s Jesus. They offer to interpret the teachings, often in front of the teacher, to suit their own leanings. They are not leaders as such, but like the idea of people listening to their views. They can be useful, particularly if they have any experience, but they can also have their way of working which is the opposite to way the group, or its teacher works. They can be incredibly offended if they are not given teaching roles. Their main problem is that they often do not learn anything new as they are constantly adapting new information to suit what they already know. The New Ager These are the people which get into esoteric groups from the more fluffy end of the market. They are mostly harmless, often cornering people with interesting cures for imaginary illnesses they have. Eternally positive about everything, they don't even mind when people get the giggles when they suggest drinking their own urine. They last until something deep and hairy hits their unconscious and they suddenly find themselves very busy with beagles to rescue. The Witch All Hermetic groups include several witches, mostly because this is a starting point for many esoteric quests. On the plus side they believe in magic and take things very seriously. On the negative side they tend towards the stereotypes of a wiccan circle which are a little different from the hermetic ones. For example you sometimes the woman who sees herself as a high priestess of the Goddess who is about as tolerant of males as the Taliban are of barbers, or the bloke who acts like he looking for a woman to jam his testicles in a vice. But of course that is not funny. Posted by Nick Farrell at 13:11 http://nick-farrell.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/what-sort-of-stereotypical-hermetic.html

Looks like an interesting book. I had a quick look inside on Amazon. They write of the subject in a very accessible way without a lot of hooha. The stargate analogy I find amusing, for my own reasons. Can you say more about what they say pathworking means? I'm curious to see if it is the same as what I was taught or expounds on it and adds more depth. Thanks for the recommendation.

Different traditions argue over the location and route of the 'central' channel. They have done for centuries, so I doubt anyone here is going to clear it up One school of thought says the central channel runs up through the spine/spinal cord. The other takes a straight direct line from the perineum to the crown of the head. There are also arguments over just how ida and pingala move through the body, exactly where or how often they intwine and how this relates to the chakras. As well as the number of chakras, their locations, their association etc etc. My honest advice is to become aware of all this, not get your knickers in a twist about it, and simply allow your own unfolding experience via whichever practice you do, to be the main understanding you have. If a model or theory supports your experience fantastic! But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, remain open and you may be surprised to find that some other time you experience phenomena that better fits another model. Bear in mind, all practices "dao yin" ie 'guide and lead' the experiences. This is why certain schools tend to adhere to certain models of the energy body. Regarding anatomical features being parralels, one thought, what would FEELING your vagus nerve be like? What emerging sensations and arising internal experience would it give you? Do you think that it would be confined only to the specific anatomical structure of the nerve itself? Worth pondering? Anatomical structures as an explanation has been popular for decades, it helps people accept things and do the practice. If you experience what you are meant to does it matter? Best,

In that case you might be interested in; http://www.amazon.com/The-Body-Light-John-Mann/dp/0804819920/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1374783079&sr=8-2&keywords=body+of+light It has its flaws, but still...

I will further add, The use of the term weiqi by JA Johnson in reference to the layers of the energy fields is something that has always intrigued me. Does anyone know of anyone else who does this? So I want to clarify something. Sloppy Zhang said "The Dragon and Tiger Medical Qigong is most directly for getting you to feel qi, and specifically to work with the wei qi" and this is completely true and correct. However I do want to clarify that this reference to wei qi is NOT talking about the fields around the body that JA Johnson calls 'wei qi fields'. This comes from personal conversation that I've had with probably the most knowledgable person regarding D&T qigong other than Bruce, his senior student Bill Ryan. Bill was teaching us how to engage with our weiqi and how to clear crap out of it. Because I wanted to be clear and not confuse terms I asked him and he said he has never heard of Bruce referring to the energy field/body as wei qi. When they talk of connecting to the weiqi layer within D&T they are using the term more inline with Chinese medicine, it is the layer under the skin and is related to the superficial fascia. This theory does include an emanantion to just outside the skin, but it is not the fields/bubble of energy around the whole body. This layer is worked in D&T ( and in other neigong like Heaven & Earth) when the palms project to and connect into the layer and then traces along the body drawing out the blockages and smoothing out the qi. There is a very specific and tangible feeling when you connect into this layer, and it can lead to some very funky stuff. D&T does of course also work with the external field, but it does not call it the wei qi. So any reference to wei qi from D&T is not referring to the external energy field. The external fields in Bruces system are the 8 energy bodies that extend larger and larger. Of course, the terms and what you choose to call these things does not matter. However, since the question was about a specific school, I wanted to clarify how they use the terms and just what they are in fact referring to with those terms. Best,

Relax into your being Dao of letting go These two are probably the ones that cover the 8 bodies theories of Bruce most. Both are by Frantzis himself. His student Frank Allen* wrote of the 8 bodies in relation to bagua in his book; Whirling circles of baguaThe only other teacher/author that refers specifically to the Daoist eight energy bodies is Dr Serge Augier. I cannot say it is the same as Frantzis' model, but it appears to be very similar. It is mentioned in passing during a lesson to his student Alex Kozma in one of Alex's out of print books. It does not go into the subject in detail. Here is a quote; "Each of the eight trigrams represents in symbolic form one of the eight ‘bodies’ that make up the totality of our being." The closest but indirect model for the energy-body to Frantzis' that I have seen elsewhere is probably Barbara Brennan's. There are differences, but they both map 8 bodies from the physcial all the way up. When I studied with one of Bruce's longest standing students, they were very honest about this subject. The way they taught it was simply that there is the spectrum of the totality of ourselves. Bruce's tradition splits that into 8, while other traditions split it into 5, or 3, or 9 and so on. They explained that no model was perfect, and that they are just that. A way to more easily understand a whole that is too complex to look at otherwise. It doesn't matter which model you use, the model is there to serve the practices of a tradition that lead to direct experience of yourself. Don't confuse the finger for the moon? The only way to know any of the layers of your being is through direct experience. Hope this helps, * Please note that last I saw Allen was denoucing Bruce's system. Poltics always rears its head.

I'm actually a fan of Grilley's, and his teacher Paulie Zink. I like what they do. Even if I disagree about the idea of a direct correlation of fascia with meridian. I found Grilley's blending of Motoyama's meridian tissue theories, dao yin and yoga to be an important stepping stone for me. I know and appreciate WHY Grilley et al believe fascia to be meridians, but to me its like mistaking the moving leaves of the tree for the wind. I'm not sure I can explain it, show it maybe, but words elude me. Opening the physcial body is important and directly related to the opening of the energy body. I think affecting either will affect the other, it doesn't have to be a one way street. Yin yoga is an enjoyable and great practice

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In the medical qigong books there are "medical qigong prescriptions", the exercises from pg 682 in the original hardback are Master Feng Zhiqiang's Hunyuan neigong. They are NOT medical qigong prescription exercises from a clinic or hospital. Although JAJ mentions training in Hunyuan in his CV on his site, there is no reference or credit for the source of information. And the line drawings are actually tracings of Master Feng from his VCD. Some of the lines drawings from the first exercise, re-appear within the waigong-neigong book, though they are used to illustrate a similar exercise rather than the actual Hunyuan one. It just always surprised me that JAJ never gave the credit.

That sounds a bit backward to me . But then some Chinese just never shut up! I was told by my friends that studied his medical qigong, that since they were desgined to support that study, it would be a bit much and more than someone just into qigong would need. I was lucky and a local second hand store had his original textbook on the cheap, I don't think they realised that at the time it was selling for nearly $1000 online! It is good to have a teacher who can bring levity to such topics without simply falling into farce. A teacher with humour is always a good thing! Yeah, they do. However he does not actually give credit to nor list certain resources he takes from in the bibliographies of those texts. Not even the expanded re-prints. The Hunyuan neigong is a good example. Best,

Thanks, looks interesting. I like Dr Saso's blog as well

In the publishing houses in China, certainly around qigong and TCM, most of the authors simply copy materials from each other. They don't really recognise 'plagerism' as such, and tend to just grab and edit things. Of course, it means if someone publishes something that is incorrect, well, it can end up in plenty of other books before anyone notices, and even if they notice I doubt much happens. I can't recall all the details but a friend of mine worked for one for years and used to describe all the stupid things that go on. I also remember Ken Cohen's frustrations with the translation of one authorised hospital text into English. They do produce quite a lot of books though I admire Johnson for all that he has achieved and done. He held himself and his school of medical qigong upto the highest standards as found in the Chinese University hospital system. Sought and gained acknowledgement by them, no mean feat. Apparently one hospital wanted to adopt his original medical qigong textbook and began translating it into Chinese, but gave up But any model has its positives and negatives. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSckmrkH8d8 I think this video is worth watching to better understanding the nature of the descriptions versus the reality of some of his methods (since his descriptions can be academic and dry). "it happens naturally. You're just now consciously creating the energy." 1.04 It also shows his sense of humour

I think it is great for the pick n mixers, and it certainly satisfies the curious ego. But I do wonder about the monkey mind?

Yeah, in some of his other books the exact same passages appear again, and again, and again. Each time you think maybe it'll be different or more indepth info, but no, just copied from before I think this book is a very comprehensive book, and covers a lot of things while helping putting them in perspective. But..... Yeah sorry, there is a but.. Did anyone else notice just how many different sources, ie unrelated martial arts and Daoist sects are drawn from? It's like a game of spot the ............"pai" Someone say pie!? I'm not a fan that he writes things like, "Ancient Daoists say...." Instead of actually stating the origin of the quotes, sayings or statements. I just find it annoying, but I'm like that.

Thank you that is fanatastic. Very interesting that more of his lectures and teachings have been made more public. Great stuff He's even on youtube!

Jetsun, Can you share more titles that you are aware of? I'm very intrigued. Swimming with the whale has gone in the shopping basket

Placebo surgery on knees has also been shown to be as effective as real surgery. Much to the surprise and dismay of the surgeons! Abstract BACKGROUND:Many patients report symptomatic relief after undergoing arthroscopy of the knee for osteoarthritis, but it is unclear how the procedure achieves this result. We conducted a randomized, placebo-controlled trial to evaluate the efficacy of arthroscopy for osteoarthritis of the knee. METHODS:A total of 180 patients with osteoarthritis of the knee were randomly assigned to receive arthroscopic débridement, arthroscopic lavage, or placebo surgery. Patients in the placebo group received skin incisions and underwent a simulated débridement without insertion of the arthroscope. Patients and assessors of outcome were blinded to the treatment-group assignment. Outcomes were assessed at multiple points over a 24-month period with the use of five self-reported scores--three on scales for pain and two on scales for function--and one objective test of walking and stair climbing. A total of 165 patients completed the trial. RESULTS:At no point did either of the intervention groups report less pain or better function than the placebo group. For example, mean (+/-SD) scores on the Knee-Specific Pain Scale (range, 0 to 100, with higher scores indicating more severe pain) were similar in the placebo, lavage, and débridement groups: 48.9+/-21.9, 54.8+/-19.8, and 51.7+/-22.4, respectively, at one year (P=0.14 for the comparison between placebo and lavage; P=0.51 for the comparison between placebo and débridement) and 51.6+/-23.7, 53.7+/-23.7, and 51.4+/-23.2, respectively, at two years (P=0.64 and P=0.96, respectively). Furthermore, the 95 percent confidence intervals for the differences between the placebo group and the intervention groups exclude any clinically meaningful difference. CONCLUSIONS:In this controlled trial involving patients with osteoarthritis of the knee, the outcomes after arthroscopic lavage or arthroscopic débridement were no better than those after a placebo procedure. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12110735