寒月 Hanyue

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Fair enough. From what I know Chen Zhonghua has altered and changed a few things from how Master Feng taught it, not sure why, maybe it was the influence from his main Chen style taiji teacher. There is plenty of footage of Master Feng on youtube going through the set though. It is just the same as with many Masters, Master Feng, especially in his later years, the movements are so subtle that what he is doing is not always so clear. There is a lot of caigong (gathering) within Hunyuan qigong, it tends to be more omnidirectional rather than turning to face different directions, but is certainly big on Heaven and Earth. Hope you enjoy it

DrT, I have a feeling we are not likely to fully agree. I certainly feel like I am missing something that you are trying to say. And I am damn sure you are not seeing most of what I am attempting to say in my posts. You also appear to have read the first part of my original post in this thread and then not read the whole post where I explain my point fully. Taiji the 'concept' and taijiquan are not the same thing. Taiji can be used, along with its brother and sister concepts to understand anything. They have nothing to do with martial arts, just because martial artists have used them to explain what they do. To me that would be like saying, "gravity" thats a martial thing. I do whole heartedly agree with you about enlightenment though and this is also a pet peeve of mine. It is typical over the top New Age inspired Western thinking. So lets look at this briefly; Enlightenment, what is it? If we consider the attainment of Shakyamuni Buddha as the basis for understanding enlightenment, then anything short of that is well, not enlightenment. Then there is also awakening, which is related but not the same thing. These Daoist practices are xian-tian gong (pre-Heaven practices). That is why they have names using wuji. Wuji means prior to taiji, meaning it is before the undifferentiated state of taiji. Getting back to taiji is hard enough, but then past that to touch wuji is touching Dao. Truly doing this is indeed a high level. Xian-tian gong can be simplistically understood as having two aspects. Straight out meditation, zuowang, jingzuo, jinggong whatever you want to call it. It was this practice that influenced Ch'an Buddhism and is the Daoist practice from which emerged Ch'an meditation [just where the lines of influence back and forth between Daoism and Buddhism lie is still a hotly debated area]. The other part is more of a neigong, that is aimed at refining and rebalancing the system gathering lost energies and strenghthening the original qi. The idea is to provide the practitioner with as good a platform as possible for the above meditation work. This is, in many ways, xing and ming and the dual cultivation of both. But of course there is also post-heaven practice and that is different. The neigong aspect is NOT a method in actuality as far as I am aware. It is a natural process that will kick in once cultivation reaches a certain point. The outer form is something that has emerged from that practice, which is why in some schools any type of this "wuji gong" is 'spontaneous' or 'formless'. The forms that are taught can lead one back to that formless state by helping one cultivate to the point where that process kicks in. That is their aim and intent. It does not however mean that everyone doing them, gets there. But this is what the practices are for. Which is why they end up with such weird Western names with "enlightenment" or "liberation" that carry connotations that are not really there within the Chinese. Can this be done simply through meditation? Of course. But in many endeavours you have supplementary training, and the Daoists were keen on such things sometimes, but not always more so than Buddhists. Just because it can be done simply through stillness meditation, also does not mean everyone can do it that way. Buddha enlightened one mind by holding up a flower. Meaning that even meditation (the method) is not required either. Anything can lead to the awakening of someone, be it meditation proper, a neigong form, eating, walking through a forest, being smacked in the head, or seeing a flower. If there truly was only one way to cultivate then we would not have so many paths. The problem is when someone finds what works for them, and decides that is the only way anyone else can do the same thing. In my view, this is confusing the method for the inherent process that lies behind it. Best,

Thanks for sharing. I saw in another thread that you have practiced Zhu Hui's primoridal qigong quite a bit and really liked it. How have you found it in comparison to Master Feng's Hunuan gong? I am familiar with Hunyuan gong, and always found it a bit weird that it got lumped together with the 'wuji' primordial qigong. They are all pre-heaven based practices, but seem quite different. What are your thoughts?

I'm no expert at all. But there have been threads on here before. Liminal luke, the OP, mentioned Michael Winn's version. It does seem that most have come from Master zhu Hui http://thetaobums.com/topic/8664-wuji-qigong-and-wudang-hun-yuan-qigong/ Master Duan is generally well regarded, he is a catholic I beleive, though don't be fooled by the reports of his age. His age went up drastically over a fairly short period of time! This makes it hard to know which is the truth and acutally accurate. I do not know enough about Master Duan to know where he learned his form from. John Milton's version he learned from Daoists in Wudang, the dvd shows him with them. Here is a thread on his dvd's. http://thetaobums.com/topic/17534-john-p-miltons-dvds/ Here is another thread http://thetaobums.com/topic/11946-primordial-qigong/

Yes yes, but FYI just because taijiquan people do often simplify the name to taiji does not mean everytime the term 'taiji' is said in a sentence or appears within the name of something, that it is taijiquan being talked about or referred to. As well you know. This thread is about 'Primordial qigong' which Milton has said was originally called wuji taiji. Many points coming up here and in the Amazon reviews I've seen all seem to be equating the qigong set with taijiquan forms and styles and getting confused. The same thing happens again and again with the taiji ruler. This also occurs when you refer to the bagua thesedays too, as well as other concepts Why not simply look at things for what they are and take the time to understand what they might be trying to say, rather than imposing what you think they are saying instead? For what it is worth, I have not seen most of the sets, ie Winn's, Rubbo's etc. I do like Milton's however, and agree with Shagrath there is a nice energy to Milton's presentation.

Is there any point?........

That is my feeling too. In fact most of the "waigong" appears to be the daoyin from the medical qigong books. Given the format of Johnson's other books, I would say repetition will continue to be the order of the day. But you never know if some new stuff has also been included with the old information.

reading this thread I can't help but feel people don't know what taiji 太極 is? though granted it is a very profound and deep concept that I certainly make no allusions to understanding. I do know that it isn't a martial art or qigong though. Next people will be talking about a "yin-yang symbol", or heaven forbid saying the 'chi' in taichi is 氣 ....oh my. Taiji 太極 is a concept, an idea, a reflection of a deep observation of nature. Just because a martial art that developed relatively recently in comparison, was later on given the appellation of "taiji", and called taijiquan. Does not make taiji a martial art. Taiji as a term can appear in the name of a method and have no bearing whatsoever on "taijiquan". The name 'wuji taiji' 無極太極 is a VERY profound name for a practice, and to actually live up to that name as a method, or to achieve that through ones own gongfu (time and effort), well. I see that several reviewers on Amazon for Milton's material don't understand this either And I thought it was the "information Age" we were living in Anyway, back to the scheduled broadcast....

I don't care about all the rest of what is going on in this thread. But Amazon did send me an e-mail with 'recommended reading' with Hern's books in it ages ago. He does have a LOT more available now! All I am going to say is this, and this goes for ANY author; When you see such 5 star reviews, simply click on the reviewer and see what else they have reviewed! This will tell you a lot about whether those reviews are genuine. In the case of Hern's books, nearly every reviewer has only ever reviewed his books and always gives them 5 stars. This is, in my view a red flag. At best it is simply devoted students who don't read or review anything else, but that hardly provides anythign helpful to a would be shopper. At worst it is simply self marketting. Best,

Mudra can mean 'seal', 'lock', or 'gesture'. There are always variances of opinion or interpretation in differing traditions. However, classically a mudra was always viewed as physical manifestation or expression, and so it referred to both a whole-body or symbolic hand gesture. A 'posture' can be viewed as a "mudra". And so yes, santishi can be considered a mudra, although in my opinion that is a stretch given what is being trained in santishi specifically. But standing or any posture/gesture can be a "mudra". Martial training can be related to mudra (and 'esoteric' practice). But my view is the connecton is easily mis-understood and abused. So you are more likely to end up deluded and like that kiai chap who had a rude and public awakening at that martial art demo that is still on youtube. The concept of the three and then bringing them together, is a hallmark of esoteric Buddhism and the Daoist lines that adopted such things. These three are body-speech-mind, and they are related to 'right action', 'right speech', and 'right thought'. Which can be understood as 'aligned' body-speech-thought. These are mudra-mantra-yantra. In cultivation you go inwards, and this becomes expressed outwards. In martial art your focus is outwards, but this can become rooted inwards. There are many reasons or explanations for what 'mudra' is referring to. But a common one is that it 'seals' or 'locks' the manifestation into the physical world, hence the concept of 'gesture'. So you have intent (trained through eidetic meditation often using yantra/mandala), breath/qi (trained through repititious use of mantra), gesture/manifestation (expressed via mudra). Today people use a type of 'reverse' engineering, to move from mudra practice to the internal origination point of it. However seeing mudra emerging spontaneously and quickly from a kundalini yogi as an expression of the connection to shakti-kundalini as it moves through them, is quite a different thing indeed. Hence, no juice, well.... So does practicing mudra do anything without that? Of course, but it is misunderstood. Mudra can help to shift the currents of qi, this is basic daoyin. But understanding this seems to bore people. Besides, if you want good qi and so on, how is your overall body alignment? if it is off, is tying the hands in weird ways going to help that? How much do you shut yourself off from the whole while focussing on mudra? Does it do that cool stuff that you were told it does, simply because you shift intent? This is worth thinking about and considering in my opinion. Best, [edit] P.S. Just to throw something out. The I ching discusses 8 energies as the baseline ways energy is manifested in the world, the interplay of these creates change. Over time this understanding was also mapped onto the various aspects that make up us humans, so we have the 8 'layers' or aspects of ourselves and these can be viewed through the trigrams. The martial art baguazhang uses the bamu zhang or '8 mother palms' which are eight statically held postures that relate to the trigrams. These are held while turning the circle. Later these become 'palm changes', or movements rather than static. There are also schools of Daoist that use and teach 8 hand seals related to the trigrams as well as liturgies. One uses hand seals, the other a whole-body posture or movement, both are physical expressions/gestures of the symbolic intent related to the 8 underlying energies of the world and mankind. Does it matter whether the "mudra" is a hand gesture or a whole body gesture if you can truly connect with those energies to express them?

To throw in my 2 cents... Reciprocal-relationship, the interconnected weave of all things. This to me is the fundamental 'belief' [if that is the right word] that underpins even the notion of Dao. Dao is a conceptual knowing born from exploration into the binding relationships of all things. If you dive into that ocean you have to swim in all directions, as Taomeow points out, there is xian-tian (wuji) and there is hou-tian (taiji). The Chinese cosmology is a refinement of earlier animist beliefs and shamanic practices that existed in that part of the world for a long time before 'Daoism'. The world-view of many still existing, but certainly fragmented indigenous peoples also bear a similar stamp of a common root. Exploring what existed before and what has come after is an enquiry that exists into today, it is just the view and tools used to approach it that vary so dramatically. There are no 'beliefs' just the principles found that explained the relationships, do you believe in gravity? Though of course we can argue that anything of the phenomenal world is intimately tied to our 'beliefs' about its 'laws', however such beliefs are certainly different from those based upon faith found in religion. Regardless, this is why knowledge and wisdom of both the phenomenal world and that which lies behind/before it, the Dao, was sought. Best,

Alex is a truly nice guy, never met him, but we've had the occasional chat. He has always been very friendly and encouraging. I really will have to get around to meeting him some day. I have met Serge, but he was keeping a low profile as it was someone else's gig. It said a lot that despite all he knows and the lineages he has, he still takes time out to meet and train with teachers of other lineages that he respects. I can't attest to his gongfu, though everyone I know who knows him speaks highly of it, as all I saw was him on the receiving end. Apparently that is a rare pleasure so I savour that! A friend of mine trains the Gao style, same line as Ed Hines, and he loves it. No esoteric aspect, all martial training which is right up his street. Though he did get told about the strange palm prints Luo has left behind on students sometimes Best,

Learning to find the boundaries of the layers of your energy body, and beginning to become aware of their fluctuations and how that relates to your habits may help. When your fields are very open but you have no sense of boundary you invite a lot in. Drawing the fields inwards and making them denser as in shielding can help. But this is not "contracting", meerly making something smaller. You don't want this all the time either, they need to "breathe". I am no expert, still getting a handle on such things myself. I offer the above only as a pointer for looking into possibilities that may help. Best,

I have used bath salts for years, but usally shower for convenience. After I was advised to try salted baths by a friend, so I revisted them on a more regular basis. Word of warning though, hot bath, good dosage of salts and qigong can lead to weird times! But both the physcial and energy body do sure work out some kinks Best,

Thanks for that, thats great I believe the reason Bodri teaches the meditation starting from the foot (left big toe) is due to the way the qijing bamai (eight vessels) are described as to opening up in some of the old Daoist texts. This seems to be an amalgamation of the Buddhist meditation with the Daoist theory of qimai (channels). For every other version of the skeleton meditation I've seen (which is not all that many in fairness), there is no mention of it. And Bodri explains elsewhere why he describes the stages of progression in opening the qimai in the way that he does. I personally like the version taught by Namgyal Rinpoche, which I have written about elsewhere on the forum. It is very similar to an exercise I got from an adept of the 'Golden light from Heaven'. It breaks the 32 body parts into three, skin-flesh-bones. Simple. I have seen very grandiose expositions on the various Buddhist practices, with ever more complex and sophisticated layers of practice or discourse. Yet all the teachers that I truly respect, state things very simply and the practice as being very simple, deep, but simple. Same in Daoism and the Western school actually. Best,

Regarding knowing the correct bones, well according to the meditation being discussed, as it is taught by that lineage. Then yes, you do need to know the correct bones. Why? Because as was mentioned, it is not a "visualisation" that is separate from YOU. It is a tactile image to help you learn to feel your bones. So if you are visualising all kinds of numbers of spinal vertebrae or 14 toes, then it is fantasy and in your head, and not helping you become present to reality. If you don't think that is important, fair enough. But Master Nan Huai Chin did, which is why he taught it that way, and why he told people to look up the anatomy. Best,

I would listen to Jetsun and Lifeforce, If you want to get somewhere with the practice as transmitted by Master Nan, Bodri whatever then just follow the instructions Bodri provides. It is a 'simple' but DEEP practice, and you don't need to add, in fact it is a letting go and dissolving into emptiness practice, so adding bits kinda goes against a core part of it. I will only add that there is 'visualising' and then there is 'visualising', one is a mental image that has no real relation to anything much, the other is a tactile image that will affect your nervous system and qi. Feeling is better than 'mental' representations. To 'see' the skeleton is to FEEL the skeleton. And as Ya Mu points out, wait for Mandrake to double check his anatomy to jog his memory before trying to locate that focal point, either that or he has a helluva waist! Best,

The location of the "points" (穴 xue) is not anatomically fixed as many TCM texts give the impression. The specific use of anatomical landmarks to locate the xue is a relatively recent direction within Chinese medicine. Much of TCM today expects a memorisation of point location due to anatomical landmarks, and most of the charts and books today rely solely on, diagrams to allow the student to do this. The older charts are not "anatomically correct", not because the Chinese could not draw, or because they did not understand anatomy. It is simply because the learning was hands on, and you learned to palpate. The charts were an additional memory tool. As I understand it most of the 'standardised' TCM charts were created and the point names chosen by a group in either the 40's or 50's. And they have been amended/updated since then. There is a very interesting interview with one of the doctors involved in this process. What does this mean? It means there was, before this, more than ONE map, of the meridian system and the point locations. That is why in modern TCM you have "extra points", because they fall outside of this 'standardised' generally used map. Why explain all this? Simply to say, just because a "xue" is not on a TCM chart does not mean it is not known within Chinese arts/medicine. In fact, the nature of xue is quite different to how many seem to approach them based on the available TCM literature. The same with jingluo or mai too. I have often see people bend their reality to fit the TCM model unecessarily. I used to do the same too. There are many aspects of the meridian system that are not as publically discussed as the xue of the jingluo. Sometimes a deeper 'gate' may be problematic though the symptom or sensations arising are experience more superficially. There is also in the old medical classics, a saying that goes something like 'anywhere can be a xue' to paraphrase somewhat. In most TCM schools this understanding has been relagated to only ashi (painful/tender) spots/points. The "xue" are both locations where symptoms may arise, as well as locations that may be used to tap into the system to affect change. Many of the 'associations' in TCM come from the blending of acupuncture and herbology and have little to do with actual energtics. So I would largely ignore them. Although shaoshang (Lu11) is on the other side of the nail as Joeblast points out, the distal location of the point you mention would still indicate a similar energetic relationship to the jingluo (meridians). This is the most distal area of the channel and as such it is a 'jing xue' 井穴, which is related to the movement of qi from outside into the channel system (no modern TCM doesn't really go here either, shame for them). The character 井 jing, is most often translated as "well", and in modern dictionaries can also mean "mine shaft", what this means is an opening to something that has something deep inside. However; "jing 井 refers to a valley spring; it does not mean a well dug up by man. The places in mountain valleys where spring water first issues are called "jing 井"..." 17th Century Yang Xuan Cao There are 5 locations moving proximally up the limbs on each of the channels that relates to the regulation of the qi into and from our system and the environment. The jingxue is the first of these five. There are many interpretations in Chinese medicine regarding this distal location, they would need to be diagnosed in person by someone who can do that. If you 'dissolve' the blockage, rather than try to move qi through it, then your qi and meridians are more likely to find balance without you having to diagnose and move qi about accordingly. Hope this helps,

意拳 yiquan, the name says it all. The practice is about your 意 yi, initially your awareness, then your intent. Beginners are sometimes advised to distract the yi because they have no discipline yet, and because the postures are going to make you ache and hurt. Trying to apply your 意 yi when you are in pain is pretty hard. So you distract yourself until your body becomes more comfortable, or until you learn the mental discipline. But as soon as possible, sooner rather than later, but eveyone is different. You want to switch to having the development of the yi 意 is the primary aspect of training. The 形 xing (shape/body) is used to train/develop the yi 意. In yiquan you do not want an overly strong focus upon the dantian, it is not Daoist neigong. Best,

For all those Master Nan fans

There have been lots of interesting things posted in this thread. However, the thread is called; Taoist Third Eye Training? And the question was; "The few sources I've read speak of Buddhist 3rd eye. What is the Taoist equivalent?" And most of the discussion has drifted off this topic. Silas, I get that you are interested and intriqued. You sound very young, maybe I'm wrong, but you come across that way. Your ideas and conceptions of these things are a little naive, i'm afraid to say, but I want to be honest with you. If you go to an decent conditioning coach and say, I've seen this guy, he had THE thickest wrists and sickest forearm strength I've ever seen!, Can you give me that? Well, it isn't that you can't ignore everything else and simply work the forearms, but generally the question is going to be, what for? And overall you have to accept that for anything to be "functional", ie 'real-world' strength. You HAVE to also condition what the forearms are attached to! So, the coach is probably going to start by teaching you a solid foundation, and get out the old basics of proper lifting that teach whole body co-ordination, strength and power. And at first you might be thinking, "well, shit! I wanted to develop my forearms like that guy I saw, and this coach, he's got me training squats, and deadlifts and what not....maybe I should find another coach!". But something says stay, and so you do. And you begin to forget about the forearms and concentrate on your form in your lifting. As your form gets better, you find your coach loading up more plates on you. Then one day he brings out the thick axle bar, and something inside you clicks. You realise that your forearm strength has grown immensely since that first day, and you hadn't even noticed! That the power to contract those muscles and to put it into an explosive clean and jerk, has done more for you than your attempts to play with sledghammer training after reading a book on it. As you train with the axle bar, you simply know those forearms are going to get even stronger.... This is what is called 'natural' training, rather than 'intentional' learning. Daoism generally favours 'natural' learning. Yes there is doing, wuwei does NOT mean you do not do anything. But the fruits of your labour are not the goal, in fact often the fruits are not in mind at all. They are simply the side effect and natural result of doing the "gong" (work). . There is a simple model of three important aspects in learning theory; Our “inherited capacity”, or what we’ve been given. What we learn “naturally” through what we do. What we “intentionally” or “deliberately” learn through specific things. Unfortunately, all too often the teaching model of an art/system is put before the individuals who are actually doing the learning. Quite often teaching models only focus on number three, and rarely take either number two or number one into consideration. So, as my teacher would say "YOUR natural gifts, are YOUR natural gifts", and the process of cultivation is meant to bring out YOUR gifts, whatever they are. Yes you can always manipulate things to some degree, but some guys genetically are just going to have better wrist and forearm strength than others!! Make sense? So are there "Daoist excerises for the "3rd eye"?" Well, yes in some systems. But they are icing on the cake at best, they are done on top of the foundational training as that has progressed. And in some cases only if those natural gifts are emerging in the individual. In fact the same in Buddhism. “The exotic exercises than many beings are so anxious to get into are really meant to be a capstone, to be placed on a background of established awareness. They are not a starting point but a tool with which to probe more deeply into the nature of mind.” Namgyal Rinpoche This is what makes such things in military circles so hard (there have and are both 'natural' and 'deliberate' trainings in the military related to this already by the way). But in all fairness, the development of such things in martial lineages is far far different to anything I have seen posted in this thread! And yes it is very real. I have however seen far more Westerners try to shortcut this martial training process and supplement themselves with 'esoteric' practices, and you know what? Well most of them only ended up deluding themselves, some gained something. But it was NOT, and was no where near the level of integrated skill found in the people who simply ate bitter and trained. But then, those that got that far where few and far between to say the least. Nearly all high level martial art, Chinese or Japanese, or Fillipino or whatever, operates from the level of a combatively functioning "3rd eye", whether they developed that intentionally or knowingly or not! But I doubt it would appear that way depending on just what your ideas of a functioning 3rd eye is based on. You want 3rd eye the Daoist way? Learn a decent neigong system (easier said than done, but still). Then work. I apologise if this is not the answer you want to hear, but then honesty often isn't. And I'm sure others have and hold onto a different truth which is fine. All the best,

What do you want to know? Which Daoist lineage? They'll approach things differently. Within "Daoist" energy anatomy there are many locations within the 'energy' body, in and around the area of the forehead, and then deeper into the brain. I have seen most of them described, rather erroneously, as being the '3rd eye' by different pop qigong authors. Can they ALL be? Personally I don't warrant such gross universality. But then we have the same issues with nearly all other cavities too, so!? Since you seem to want names, i'll be academic about it; yintang zuqiao niwan tianmen yuan shenshi fengfu xuandan mingtang dongfang tiantinggong zhizhenggong taihuang liuzhugong yuhuanggong These are all related to the shangdantian. So look them up, but such information really doesn't help understand this very much. Yintang, is the location that most closely 'maps' the location of the 'third eye' from Buddhism as it is often depicted. However it is considered an external location in Daoism. And is not an important point in the lines of neidan I am familiar with. The real development of shangdantian in Daoism is considered shengong, and there are VERY few who I would trust to give much of an opinion on that! My lineages say, get on with the work and such things will happen on their own. There is no '3rd eye' "training" beyond that which naturally occurs as a part of the daily practice. Best,

Always found Master Nan Huai Chin interesting Read his books, or if you can stomach them, Bodri's for explanations of the nine bottled wind practices. Previous threads; http://thetaobums.com/topic/72-the-infamous-9-bottle-wind/ http://thetaobums.com/topic/11314-the-9-bottled-wind-pranayam/ Khumbaka and anapanasati are different and should both be explored according to the Tibetan Buddhist teachings I know (not that I know that much). The "reverse" breathing, ala the Daoist practices I was taught, is different. But then there are many practices going under the name. Same with "Tummo", and "vase" breathing many many versions all under one name. Best,