Simon V.

Hello all Back in the late nineties, or around 2000, on the old Healing Tao Forum, around the time Sean started this site as I recall, there was a thread dealing with what I remember as stemming from a particular understanding of how Qi development progresses. I have been thinking of this off and on for a while now, because for years a significant element of my practice has been developing handstands as a species of qigong practice--standing practice but on the hands, simply. In yoga they often say that handstands develop the solar plexus centre, will, potency of intent. Maybe this comes just from the fact that one is forced to be very severely attentive to stay balanced. But I have associated it with the heart more: as developing circulation between hands and heart and also throat, though I also often use the dantian or all of the above. I find it also to be a good 'longevity practice'. In this old thread that I recall, someone had piped up to say that the heart was ultimately the centre one ends up using--at a certain level of qigong development--to circulate the qi, i.e., not the dantian. It was clearly how this person had been taught in his or her tradition. Does anyone recall that, or know of a formal understanding of practice that says this? I know that Spring Forrest qigong uses the heart from the beginning as the central focus, but that is not the same as seeing it as a sort of technical, energetic physiology question, namely that given good energy flow and body development, the heart is found to be the site that naturally lends itself to 'qi circulation'; as in, first you need to build up some 'gong', some craft, in the dantian, clear the channels, then the heart becomes the sluice gate. I am finding this personally to be more or less the case, and yet I am very influenced by reading and teachers that emphasise the dantian/hara as the site from which one directs qi to different locales. I'd love to hear anyone's feedback on this. For example does this ring any bells in terms of specific traditions anyone knows of? Simon

I agree that there is a deeper layer--to all the centres. And there's something about letting go of the localized focus at a certain point (I'm thinking of in a given session). Simon

Thanks for the link. He's someone I've been meaning to explore. My first teacher--still however primarily a Chinese arts oriented teacher--has a strong Sufi connection and I've been influenced by the whole tone of their approach. I find there is something to centering in the heart, then being able to, or even feeling actively inclined, like it is natural, to work the lower dantien from there, also the upper. And I agree though that the development of the lower is a separate important element of practice, or in any case it works well to do it that way, to build up gong/craft as they say (standing practice, one pointed focus in lower dantien, etc). Ultimately there is a kind of threshold past which things are open enough to draw in energy from above and below, & through the hands and feet, which centering in the heart I find greatly facilitates. I think the lower body opening/development could also just come from jogging or similar heavy lower body workouts (like in martial arts), and/or from having an excellent and intense sexuality; i.e. I think one can end up just starting from the heart naturally (perhaps more common with women), like apparently is done in Spring Forrest qigong, in Brugh Joy's method, or similar approaches, given an already opened up lower region. (I have a theory that many megawatt superstars, like say David Bowie or Madonna, have naturally opened up energy, maybe largely because of an intense and uninhibited sexuality, and also of course due to the blazing intensity of performance.) But there seems definitely to be something to the Taoist jing-chi-shen theory, as in it correctly maps onto how the layered (gross-subtle) mind-body works. Always interesting to me has been the Tibetan Nyingma lore around the heart being the best meditative locale for 'realizing the the nature of mind'; that seems to jibe with the message of that Sufi link, substituting 'nature of mind' for 'God'. Simon

I think there is a key insight there about finding a quiet centre, and then there being a natural advent of 'things taking care of themselves', of getting in sync thereby with an innate intelligence; this is like the Indian lore of 'Kundalini' having in it the whole of the path when communed with rightly. Still there is a specificity in terms of 'energetic physiology' that I'm interested in, re how I and others experience/have experienced particular aspects in practice (like with regard to the heart centre), where that experience, closely examined, may shed light on commonly accepted theory (Kan and Li etc). Thanks for the interesting input. Simon

I find this to be true. That connection is also affirmed in Tibetan Buddhism. I think it functions as a go between--between upper and lower--just as would be suggested by its middle location. Simon

Exactly this kind of observation in myself is behind my interest in this. Part of my fascination is to observe what 'kan and li' may be phenomenologically, to look at what experiences are in practice (quality of energy in different locales, spontaneous developments), apart from firmly overlaying theory right from the start--to see what may have originally inspired the theory. Simon

Makes sense; without basic quieting focus things will remain relatively murky wherever the locale is. Yes, that's my line of inquiry, which seems to match my experience--that given a coherent clear development (entailing facility in quieting down) the heart may more naturally be the energy-flow directing/encouraging centre, with its brighter emotional charge which 'inclines desiringly toward things, situations'. Simon

Thanks for the feedback. That sounds in the same ballpark as my experience, that sense of naturally progressing, hitting upon it. Agree about them not being mutually exclusive. I feel it is a natural experience of what originally inspired the practices of 'kan and li'--the heart energy simply is more fiery, and also, perhaps, more 'emotionally cognitive', desiring, moving. It just feels right at a certain point to interact from the top down, heart to dantian (which I tend to call 'the well', to give it an English moniker), making 'fiery water'. Simon

"It's a sort of youth-not-wasted-on-youth brand of psychological finesse." --Jane Roberts

Thanks for sharing this Sean, it really struck home. Simon

I don't know about TCM lore re smoking, but I used to smoke cigars on a moderate basis (this is without inhaling, but they are strong and scorch the throat, upper bronchial area, mouth, and nose). I did enjoy them and they seemed to sometimes provide a certain purifying effect--but generally it was their negative effects that required extensive qigong to purify, rather than them benefiting me in that way; these negative effects I find are more serious and long term, more problematic than, say, over indulging in some wine of an evening. While doing them I would take periodic breaks from them. Finally I realised by comparison that my qigong level was clearly much better when I was not induling in the cigars, and that my dreaming practice also quickly improved in their absence. The ability to enter deep relaxation was also better minus the cigars--particularly important for deeper meditative work. From a practicioners point of view, I would recommend not smoking. Simon

My favourite (not his, but he liked to quote it--a standard masochistic buddhist saying) is 'Samsara is like licking honey off of a razor'...

I agree with the spirit of this, but also think that as meditors we can address the 'deep shit' aspect of ouselves using a more focused and 'willing to suffer' intent, akin to what sometimes (but not always) seems to be the kind of intent brought into therapy. Chogyam Trungpa calls this 'leaning into the sharp points'. But there can also be the danger of 'exaggerating what you focus on'. That's why I like to emphasise, in my own practice, thorough and repetitive philosophical focus/study/contemplation. Working with dreams can be very effective in this regard, but it takes some doing. Simon

I have experimented with a practice group (gigong) and with a discussion group (whereby all philosophical superfreaks were welcome to attend). Both efforts I made as temporary big toe in the bathwater type affairs. But now I think that if I do something similar it ought to be of indefinite duration--just a regular occasion to get together and practice together, to discuss; I knew that was an issue for people, that it be something that they could just come to without definite end. Simon

That link to Mistele page is remarkable. Very complimentary to my current study of RJ Stewart's material. Simon

Simon' date=' do you still work with Dion's material? She strikes me as a very balanced and saner Crowley. Does the material in this book provide anything over learning banishing rituals? . [right']8863[/snapback][/right] Yes, the book is packed full of all kinds of useful information and very interesting and entertaining anecdotes. I've only read The Mystical Qabalah and Psychic Self-Defence and one novel of hers (I believe it's called Moon Magic), but plan to get into all of her stuff eventually. I also want to delve into Gareth Knight (her most well-known and polific modern spokesperson, and an old friend of RJ Stewart--the man who got him published intitially in fact). Right know I am mainly working with RJ Stewart's material--reading Fortune was due to her book being in The Miracle Tree's bibliography. Simon

Agree--many thanks. Simon

Tibetan occult culture certainly has its shady side too. Through fraternizing with kadgyu buddhists I've become aware of the nastiness of some elements of Tibetan politics. Learning about the history of the Dalai Lamas is a nice dip in cold, disillusioning water. The office of the Dalai Lama (of the Gelugpa or youngest lineage--the Dalai Lama is only the political head of the Tibetans, but is only the spiritual head of the Gelugpas, not of the other lineages) has been very nasty to the Kadgyu lineage over the centuries. One thing I've learned: there is a difference between true lamas with big hearts and deep understanding of 'emptiness', and 'buddhist magicians', talented people who have successfully gone through the very effective Tibetan mind training program. A very good book on this whole topic of occult shadiness and how to trump it: "Psychic Self Defence" by Dion Fortune. Don't be dissuaded by the cheesy seeming (from our modern cultural perspective) connotations of the title. Much insight into magic in general in there. Simon

I'll check out that site, thanks. Great meditation image... Simon

Interesting thoughts. I've noted the shamanistic/magical side of dzogchen, as well as its sort of inherent tendency to shed any dogmatic stickiness, something the other lineages are not as savvy about I find. I'm getting what you said above re akasa through reading William Mistele's material--I have Bardon's book on the way to me in the mail. "...manifested from the akasha and not by the ego..." reminds also of western alchemy--the real alchemy is done, given the cooperation of the alchemist engaging in the art, by the Natural Light, or God, and buddhism offers a skillful way of interacting with that in fine detail, not too loose, not too tight. Simon

It is a great community of like minds, a Brave New Sangha. It was on the tip of my tongue to ask you if you were German, given the nickname you're using. : ) I lived in Germany for six years, in Stuttgart. Now that I'm back in Canada I still keep in touch with German friends and do some translating on the side. I still find myself saying "bitte" instead of "excuse me" in supermarkets etc. The funny thing is that no one notices; they just edit in the English version without even blinking. I agree re the vibes one can receive via internet contact. Simon

That is a great painting. Glad you put it here to so I can copy it and print it out on some of that fancy paper. I also like her use of the terms 'anabolic' and 'catabolic'. Stewart has adopted this. I read that book because it was on the recommended reading list in Stewart's book on the qabalah, The Miracle Tree--his first teacher, W. G. Gray, studied with Dion Fortune. Simon

RJ Stewart has said something interesting in this context in a book called Advanced Magical Arts. To paraphrase: If you are in a high state of potency, of concentrated energy, in silence, negative desire-based entities will not be able to persist in that environment because they will not be able to sufficiently self-reflect. This is extremely useful information in my opinion, eliminating much potential hesitation, and in it shows some of what is best about the western tradition--it can offer truly pragmatic, 'scientific' clarity to otherwise often very fuzzy spiritual subjects. The dzogchen view does not preclude getting into magical activities. The dzochen tradiion is actuallyvery mystical or magical, is very focussed on dreaming practice for example, and works extensively with the energy body. Simon

I've sensed this too. A good overview of magic in the context of the qabalah: The Mystical Qabalah, by Dion Fortune. She specifically deals with the question of establishing yourself in a liberated, detached state before engaging in magical work, which in that lingo is to 'be initiated into tipharet' (which is like the goal of zen etc.), to get in contact with the internal sun. Of course, many skip this part. I would say it is along the lines of what Sean has recently had to say about happiness being more important than anything else, a kind of basic ability to relax into your own skin, a conscious innocence, that cuts through encultured lines of meaning, agendas, where ego is game-like rather than carved in anxious stone. Simon

Hi Cameron Your comment on Eric was very kind and understanding. I haven't practiced his methods myself and was also shocked back then by his behaviour. You can tell when Winn talks about him that Eric is his friend... Spiritual teachers are human beings with emotions, loved ones, who experience good times and bad times. As the gnostics knew so long ago, to be born into flesh is to risk its dangers, its fragility, as well as its pleasures and potentials. Zen is the basis of my practice too, the foundation of my sanity/happiness really, what allows me to experiment without becoming too confused and diffused by information overload. Zen provides the crazy wisdom to take the bad with the good, to see it all as some mad, glorious work of art. Simon