cheya

In his book Nine Nights with the Taoist Master, Waysun Liao frames this chapter as an answer to the Prince's question "If I try very hard to reach Tao, can I get it?" In the story Lao Tzu replies "No. Your are trying to 'get'. You are not letting Tao enter you. It is as if you try to stand on your toes and are not steady." Waysun Liao's Chapter 24: "One will fail to stand on ony his toes. One can't walk if he tries to hop. He who tries to make himself stand out will not be visible. He who is self-righteous will not earn respect. He who boasts of himself will get nothing. He who brags will not lead. Extra effort to reach Tao is like extra food and unnecessary luggage. The Saint avoids self-effort."

Someone posted a link earlier with an alternative translation accompanied by the Chinese, maybe not the original... http://huanglao.org/neiye.htm

Hi Manitou, I'm interested! I'm interested! Please do post the chapters! I don't know if I'll be able to offer any constructive comments, but I will certainly be following the conversation. cheya

Check out John Ott's book Health and Light, and his video "Exploring the Spectrum". The connection between full spectrum light and health is mind-blowing. The book and video are really old, but the information is still WAY ahead of what is commonly known about the impact of light on our health. (Note the video starts out pretty hokie, but Ott's time lapse photography of plants, animals, and cells under different light conditions are truly astonishing!)

For those of us forced to use lo-fi due to dial up or old software (or both in my case), having the "view new content" link show up on the lo-fi page would be great. Currently I have to go back to regular view, click on new content, and then switch back to lo-fi once I get the new content page. Sometimes, though, clicking on lo-fi takes me to a lo-fi version of the first page, rather than the new content page I clicked from! Argh! (Lo-fi works well for me otherwise.) Sure would save me loading time if I could just click on "new content" direct from the lo fi version.... Pipe Dreams?

That is so cool! THANK YOU! cheya

Ah well. Even having to switch back and forth, lo-fi is still way faster for me, especially when the board seems to be running slow. Thank you for suggesting it to me back awhile ago.

Hi Marblehead, Yes, I agree. I trip over that sentence every time, and Chen's commentary sounds like she does mean " what the multitudes fear". Possibly a mistake in the text itself. It just doesn't fit! Have you read any of her commentaries?

The Tao Te Ching: a New Translation with Commentary (1989), by Ellen M. Chen. Ellen Chen's translation with (extensive!) commentary has been very useful to me in understanding the cultural context of the TTC. Hers is more academic/philosophical/religious approach than other translations I have liked. Her commentary has been very useful to my understanding, and, for some reason, I think of it in its own category compared to other translations. Anybody else using this translation? cheya

Chapter 20, translated by Ellen M Chen: From: The Tao Te Ching, a New Translation with Commentary. Eliminate learning so as to have no worries Yes and no, how far apart are they? Good and evil, how far apart are they? What the sages fear, I must not fear. I am the wilderness before the dawn. The multitude are busy and active, LIke partaking of the sacrificial feast, Like ascending the platform in spring; I alone am bland, As if I have not yet emerged into form. Like an infant who has not yet smiled, Lost, like one who has nowhere to return. The multitudes all have too much; I alone am deficient. My mind is that of a fool, Nebulous. Worldly people are luminous; I alone am dark. Worldly people are clear-sighted; I alone am dull. I am calm like the sea, Llke the high winds I never stop. The multitudes all have their use; I alone am untamable like lowly material. I alone am different from others. For I treasure feeding on the Mother. Chen's general comment on this chapter: "Chapter 15 describes the Taoist as self-effacing and self-regnerating in imitation of the dynamic non-being of Tao. This chaper is a mystic's self-portrayal. Amidst the hustle and bustle of the crowd glorying in the life of consciousness cut off from the unconscious, the Taoist mystic abides by the root of all beings. The six sections [of the chapter] are variations on the same theme; in each the mystic contrasts those who dwell in the realm of distinction to his own psychological oneness with the Mother." Chen then includes 2 more pages of more detailed commentary on this chapter. Ellen Chen's extensive scholarly commentary is the most useful I've come across in understanding the text, both from the perspective of ancient times and from modern language use as well. (Liao's is still the most useful for me in terms of practice, a skeletal how-to manual.)

Hi Exorcist Great post! Waysun Liao speaks to this extensively in his new book, Tao: the Way of God. He says Chi, Te, Tao are about FEELING, not thinking, which is why words, all words, get in the way of merging with Tao. "The mind follows the body like the stream clings to the world." The mind's job is to witness, not comment! Liao says the process of merging with Te and then Tao is in the realm of sensing and feeling, and can only be a wordless process. Tao: the Way of God is truly radical. Liao's language and concepts are really simple, deceptively so I think, but offer much to mull over. Wordlessly of course. Thanks for starting this thread. cheya

Yes! Especially that last bit. Thank you for posting it!

Nine Nights with the Taoist Master, by Waysun Liao "Master Waysun Liao's story of Lao Tzu's visit to a border town in China before wandering across the Western mountains toward India. During the visit he reveals the secrets of living in the Tao. Portions of these secrets eventually become the text of the Tao Te Ching. The importance of this story is that it lends context to the enigmatic text of the Tao Te Ching. Without this context, the interpretation of this classic will vary widely. With the context of a story, there is a cohesive vision of the eighty-one chapters of the Tao Te Ching which explain how man may live in harmony with the world and the world unseen." (from Dancing Dragon's review on Amazon) Waysun Liao has written another translation of the Tao Te Ching, but with a brilliant new twist: this version of the TTC is embedded in a teaching novel! Liao tells a story of Lao Tzu visiting a frontier province in ancient China, where he stayed with the Prince for nine nights, allowing the prince nine questions each night, the answers to which comprise the 81 chapters of the Tao Te Ching. Each night of teaching is a chapter, followed by another chapter of the story in which the principles are illustrated in the lives of the characters in the story. It's a very easy read, and the story and its principles stick with you. Waysun Liao is the author of The Tai Chi Classics, a book about Tai Chi that was written 30 years ago and has been translated into 7 or 8 languages. He has taught Tai Chi at his center in Chicago for most of those 30 years, but he did not write another book on the energy arts until this teaching novel. Liao says that the Tao Te Ching is actually an instruction manual for attaining the Tao, but that it cannot be properly understood in the absence of the accompanying oral tradition, which he received from the Taoist sage he studied with as a teenager. Having received the oral transmission, Liao writes a story that includes the subtext of the teachings, and so fills the reader in on the real meaning of the Tao Te Ching. Regarding other translations, Liao says it's as if someone wrote a book about swimming without ever having been in the water. And then someone else, reading that book, rewrote the book, also never having been in the water. For over two thousand years then, the swimming book has been translated and retranslated by people who do not swim. Okay, I don't know what the "real meaning" of the Tao Te Ching is. But I can tell you that reading this book got me to read many other translations to see in what ways Liao's "illuminated" translation differs. It has given me a context for understanding Tao and Te which has been standing up very well, not only for Taoist concepts, but also for understanding the underlying commonality of all spiritual traditions. Best of all, it has been a guiding and sustaining light in my continuing attempt to "follow the chi til it leads to the Tao." I am intrigued by the idea that the accompanying oral tradition is the key required for deep understanding of the ancient text. John Bright Fey refers to this secret oral teaching as well. Understanding also seems to be state dependent. I discovered Fey's book, read some of it and was amazed at how clear and meaningful it was. Then, days later, trying to read the book again, I found myself astonished that I had bought such a meaningless book! That was when I began to get a clue that understanding these books somehow depends on the state of the reader. In some states, the author's meaning is clear and profound, and in others, the same text seems to be just gobbleygook! How do I spend more time in the state of understanding? How did I get there? How do I get back there? Having this experience has made me very interested in learning more about the oral tradition. Be warned, this is not a cheap book. The regular version is $25 and the Delux Study Edition is $50! The Delux version includes a foreword, an interview with Liao, the complete translation of the TTC (separate from the one embedded in the text), and an in depth glossary of the important terms used by Lao Tzu. I waffled about getting the Delux edition for quite awhile, but totally recommend it for anyone seriously interested in the TTC.

Hi SFJane, Thank you SO MUCH for posting this! I've read Bruce's description before, but your personal experience and understanding is very helpful to my practice. cheya

Dawei, Your way of comparing and analyzing the verses is very helpful to me. Thank you! cheya

Are preferences natural and thus in accordance with the Tao? Thinking about this reminds me of Chapters One and Twelve of the TTC. Chapter one: on viewing with desire (see the manifestation) or without desire (see the formless source). If we are looking at the world with the five senses, preoccupied with the Tao's manifestation, desire and preferences tend to arise, guided and informed by our external lives. When we are without desire, in touch with the formless source, feeling with our inner chi, it seems preferences are less likely to arise. The more one can flow with the Tao, the more what looks like choices and preferences will simply be expressions of the flow of the Tao.

Prefacing chapter 11, Waysun Liao writes : "The void and emptiness is invisible, but it is substantial. The True Tao includes the power of 'have' and 'have not'. Unfortunately, the usefulness of nothingness is ignored in our daily life," explained Laotzu." After translating the specific verses, Laotzu says "Inside the emptiness there is a useful essence." and then goes on to describe two ways to access that essence, the power of One Chi. (pages 84 and 85 of Nine Nights with the Taoist Master) I'd be so tickled if others who have read Nine Nights would chime in... It's one thing to report what he says, but I'd love to have a deeper conversation about what Liao MEANS!

Waysun Liao suggests this is a series of specific methods and goals in learning to "practice the Power of Tao." A short quote from Nine Nights (p.83) to give you the flavor of his treatment of this chapter: Laotzu tells the prince: "To practice the power of Tao while carrying body and consciousness and embracing the only One Power, can you avoid the separation of body and consciousness? To practice with the Chi, flowing life energy and becoming supple, can you be like a newborn baby? This life energy that we can learn to flow is one step down from the One Chi, the original power of Tao." The first two stanzas of chapter 10 are embedded in that text. Sorry I haven't figured out how to make the actual text sand out with my antiquated computer. But I think the quote gives you the very different flavor of Liao's translation! I love it!

Hi Marblehead, For me chapter twelve contains instructions for staying on the path. It's about keeping the main thing the main thing. The five senses can easily draw us away from the path. Withdrawing from the distractions of the five senses or at least keeping in mind where focusing on them leads, allows us to focus on the internal chi, which for me is the path to merge with the Tao. Thus the mention of the belly is not about eating, but about staying focused on the Tantien, the main doorway to internal work. Liao translates chapter 12-4: "Therefore the saint is guided by what he feels and not by what he sees." Re three chapter posting. Personally, I don't care for the three-chapters-at-a-time plan. It seems to dissipate the focus. I really like feeling like we're all looking at one chapter at the same time. Regards posting specific chapters more randomly: of course I have some "favorite" chapters which I'm eager to discuss, but I'm really happy to wait for them to come up in turn, keeping to the sequence and flow of the TTC.

Waysun Liao offers his translation of the TTC in his book Nine Nights with the Taoist Master, in which he embeds the chapters of the TTC in the text of a teaching novel. To me the most important thing about his translation is that it includes the input of an oral tradition, which gives it a coherence and depth I have yet to find in other translations. From the age of twelve, Waysun Liao studied with a wandering Taoist and in a Taoist temple until he became a full Taichi and Tao master. Considered one of the world's foremost authorities on traditional Taoist wisdom and Chi arts, he is the founder and master of one of the oldest Taichi centers in North America, which is located in Oak Park, Illinois. He is one of the few remaining Tao masters carrying and transmitting the ancient oral traditions concerning the power of Tao, and shares his wisdom with students across the world. Master Liao continues to spread the art of Tai Chi and the science of Tao by giving seminars, group and intensive training, as well as private sessions with sincere students. He wrote his first book, Tai Chi Classics, 30 years ago, and it's now translated into eight languages worldwide. His 3 newer books include Nine Nights with the Taoist Master; Chi, Discovering Your Life Energy; and his newest, just out this fall: Tao: the Way of God. He has compiled a slew of video/DVDs preserving the ancient temple teachings of single form Taichi practice, and has a number of DVDs explaining the Tao (Tao Gong), all available at his website, www.taichitaocenter.com. Note: prepare for sticker shock. His trainings and DVDs are not cheap! On the other hand, his information and point of view are priceless.

Hi Rene Actually, the Prince is responding in frustration to Laotzu's continual emphasis on non-action. The Prince can't figure out how he can rule his complex border state without acting. How can he control his people if he doesn't DO anything??? Laotzu continuously tells him to "broadcast" his intent through exercising the power of Tao, guiding his subjects into correct action simply through the force of his Te. TianShi's translation seems to be in the same ball park, and I'm very curious where he will go with it. Liao's book was my gateway into the TTC. I had a couple other translations, and did appreciate the beauty of the words, but had trouble applying any of it to my life until I read Nine Nights. Then I had enough of a framework, and still plenty of confusion, to search out other translations that could address my growing list of questions! Most translations don't help much at all. Of course I'm just interested in what has meaning for me in my life, not in the finer details of the Chinese language, so I lean toward translations that treat the TTC as an instruction manual for merging with Tao. But every translation is interesting, and I'm totally delighted with the emergence of this TTC sub forum, and all the ensuing discussion!

Hi TianShi, This is such a JUICY translation! Thank you! To me, your translation has much in common with Waysun Liao (Nine Nights with the Taoist Master), whose barebones translation of Ch. 7 & goes like this (p 285 of the Appendix): The Universe is everlasting. Why does the Universe last forever? Because it does not bear itself, therefore, it is ever-existing. Therefore, the saint stays behind his body as if his body goes ahead of himself. And since he stays out of his body, his body lasts longer. It is because he is rid of his consciousness of self that he gains his true self. In the main text, which Liao presents as a teaching novel, Laotzu's words are embedded in the story (p 65). Below, Laotzu is explaining chapter 7 to the prince who questions him: "Because the power of Tao prevails, (7-1) the Universe is everlasting. Why does the Universe last forever? Because it does not bear itself, therefore, it is ever existing. Therefore, the saint stays behind his body and allows the power of Tao to enter his body first; it's as if his body goes ahead of himself. And since he stays out of his body, allowing Tao's power to run his body, his body lasts longer. It is because he is rid of his consciousness of self that he gains his true self. Therefore he lives, by the power of Tao, a much longer life." Then [the prince] asked, "Master, you seem to say that I must turn even my body over to this power of Tao. But if I ever learn to practice so that the power of Tao enters my body, how then will my body function in daily life?....." [Laotzu replies] "Just practice until the power of Tao enters your body, then let the power of Tao run the whole mission for you. Don't worry; it will take care of everything in the best way. See, (8-1) the highest good, the power of Tao at work, is just like water..." [here the text moves on into chapter 8.]

Some TTC translators say that their translation is "informed by an oral tradition", stating that the TTC is just the bare bones of an instruction manual that requires input from the oral tradition to flesh out its meaning. Two such versions that come to mind are Waysun Liao's translation, Nine Nights with the Taoist Master, and John Bright-Fey, in his book, The Whole Heart of Tao. I'm sure there are others that make similar claims. Waysun Liao says a TTC translation from a non-practitioner, or someone not informed by a lineage of oral tradition, however beautiful the words, totally misses the essence. He compares it to a manual on swimming that was written many centuries earlier by a master swimmer, and then translated and retranslated multiple times by people who have never even been in the water! Each translation by a non-swimmer builds on the translations of other non-swimmers, and with each translation, the meaning creeps further and further form the original. For those claiming to be informed by the oral tradition, only those who currently "swim" and have been taught the "rest of the story" from an oral transmisison can accurately convey the original meaning of the TTC. Does anyone have any input on this idea that some translations are informed by an oral tradition and are thus closer to the original intent? Any favorite translations making this claim? As an aside, I did notice with John Bright-Fey's book, that when I first read it in the book store, I thought it was brilliant, and bought it immediately. A few days later I opened it to find I couldn't understand what he was talking about at all, and couldn't imagine why I had bought the book! Then a couple weeks later, picked it up again, and it was all clear again! Something about my mood or state of mind/consciousness opened or closed a door of understanding. I actually found a paragraph in the book in which he describes this very phenomenon!