ralis

Please state a reference to the Gurdjieff book so that others can read the entire context.

Please retract that piece of revisionism. Talk about twisting what I write. My post was for the many Buddhist practitioners that post on here that don't seem to have a clue as to what Dzogchen is about. Sure, they make take retreats with Norbu or whoever, but the proof is in how they communicate. Creation made a very clear post today as opposed to the vitriol that certain banned Buddhists have consistently engaged in. BTW, free speech doesn't mean that one can say anything without limit.

Sri Aurobindo did state the portal is behind the heart and Mirra Alfassa 'The Mother' was in agreement. However, given the close association with the physical heart, it is very easy to put too much stress in that area and cause heart problems. 'The Mother' had a number of heart attacks and noted that she had problems with palpitations. She did say it was from the stress of focusing in that area. Tricky business! Ken Wilbur has discussed the prevalence of heart and cancer problems among meditators in his book 'Spiritual Choices'. Irina Tweedie notes heart issues in her book. http://www.amazon.com/Daughter-Fire-Spiritual-Training-Master/dp/0963457454/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1412709461&sr=1-1&keywords=daughter+of+fire http://www.amazon.com/Spiritual-Choices-Problem-Recognizing-Transformation/dp/0913729191/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1412709691&sr=1-1&keywords=spiritual+choices

@BKA, Here is one thought for your consideration. Norbu said this in a retreat that I attended in 1989. "What is the difference between a statue of a Buddha and an ash tray?"

According to what I remember, all the tantras contain the primordial state i.e, Dzogchen, but the trick is to recognize it. Actually all phenomena are the primordial state which is termed the great perfection. The problem is one of how one relates to the inner judgment of phenomena, acceptance/aversion and so forth. Language constructs are problematic as to how one relates. Humans are far too serious as you can see by my joker avatar.

Tonglen can make one physically sick. I had to stop doing it back in the 80's because of that. Mainly because I feel far too much of the pain in the world right in my heart. Ken Wilbur discusses such practices in the book 'Spiritual Choices' and the dangers of. These practices are not to be taken lightly!

@BKA, Here is a little book that Norbu wrote that distinguishes between Dzogchen and Zen. http://www.amazon.com/Dzog-Chen-Zen-Namkhai-Norbu/dp/0931892082/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1412697147&sr=1-1&keywords=dzogchen+and+zen

Simply put, tantra is about transformation of various emotions to their opposite. Dozogchen transforms nothing, but sees all thought, emotion, unpleasant events and so forth as part of the natural state or pure energy.

I don't agree with your assertion. I almost have a photographic memory and can see and hear what Norbu said in regard to the primordial state and secondary practices. Those memories date back to 1989. What he did was break down the primordial practice into thogal and trekcho for those who don't get it any other way. There is no separation whatsoever.

I am wondering given the nature of the posts from several Buddhist who claim to have taken teachings from Norbu, as to the reason for positing vitriolic filled posts. Vajraji was the same way. I think it is that some of Norbu's students have not understood the teachings. During one of Norbu's retreats he was defending himself from the criticism coming from the monastics and other naysayers. The primordial state is so damn simple, most entirely miss the point. Furthermore, transmission can come in ways least expected.

The foundational practice in Dzogchen has no visualizations, drops, or channels. Those practices are secondary, but are not a requirement for realizing the natural state. I have an excellent memory from my time with Norbu back in the 80's and he made those points very clear. The rainbow body practices are in addition to the primordial state teachings.

I would add that Gangten Tulku who I previously mentioned has a group of students in Crestone Colorado attempting to achieve the rainbow body. Gangten requires a traditional three year retreat before such advanced teachings can be practiced. So far I have not heard that anyone had success. Norbu always stated that such practices are only a passport, but are limited.

Can you explain why?

From my research, I have found evidence of what the Sufi's call the 'body of light' which is the same manifestation.

His Eminence Gangteng Tulku Rinpoche was asked why he hasn't achieved the 'rainbow body'. His response was "I have too much to accomplish here". I guess renovating a stupa as opposed to building schools that would bring his people out of the dark ages is another karmic excuse. Gangteng requires all students to complete the preliminaries before receiving the so called higher teachings. I have taken teachings from him on several occasions.

To fall back on the karma excuse as if karma is an immutable law of the universe is just another unfounded belief system. Or, if you will, a useless mind game. The belief in karma leads to the abuse of others and leads to authoritarian hierarchies i.e, reincarnate Lama's (Tulku's) that keep their position due to rebirth.

Of course the practice can be done while playing video games. Remember it is all phenomena/not phenomena or if you prefer, manifest/unmanifest and where one places attention. Eliminate the unnecessary variables...............

@katsura, Here is a post I made earlier that may be useful to you. The Tibetans made this stuff up, I certainly didn't. http://thetaobums.com/topic/36522-what-is-the-difference-between-dzogchen-zen-and-anapanasati/page-2#entry584431

Not certain that I follow, but if you mean that only Tibetan monastics practice Dzogchen, that is an incorrect assumption. Furthermore, anyone can practice regardless of religious affiliation or culture.

The foundational Dzogchen practice is 24/7 in all activities.

@asunthatneversets, Here is a direct quote page 31 from 'The Torch of Certainty'. Any reasonable person, myself included, should be appalled at such religious fundamentalism that is foisted as truth, which is based in fear. BTW, I rarely cut/paste, but the Buddhist literature speaks volumes.

My reason for challenging asunthatneversets narrative is due to the fact that he frequently posts cut/paste snippets that are largely out of context with no comments on his part and his responses are usually one liners. I have requested that persons posting here to write in a clear/succinct manner so that a discussion can ensue. However, most of the time there have been lengthy cut/paste of what Malcolm's opinions are. There is a taboo disseminated by the Tibetan hierarchy that such teachings are only given by qualified guru's. The teachings are said to be protected by forces which are depicted in traditional Tibetan iconography and if one breaks the rules, then certain karmic problems will arise i.e, hell realms and so forth. For all the insight some Tibetan Lama's possess, there is a clinging to certain superstitious beliefs i.e, karma, hell realms and so forth. E.g. the text titled, 'The Torch of Certainty' is full of various beliefs and commands that are right out of the 'Middle Ages'. I still see Buddhists clinging to these superstitions and for the most part have jettisoned critical thinking and accepted such writings with complete acceptance as opposed to asking as to what the consequences such belief systems lead to. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/jul/01/lama-sex-abuse-sogyal-rinpoche-buddhist http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_pg_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Cp_27%3AJamgon+Kongtrul&page=2&sort=relevance&ie=UTF8&qid=1412536852

I will respond to the rest of your post later. I have been practicing Dzogchen since I was very young. The practice just came naturally with no teacher.

There are a number of very good discussions regarding Dzogchen here on TTB in the Buddhist section.

Why copy/paste as per your usual motive? That is just tabloid BS and has nothing to do with a Buddhist discussion. Is this guy special because he is Trungpa's son? Thousands have died in West Africa, who are not Buddhists. Why would it be interesting to anyone? Readers who believe every word in tabloids such as 'The Dailymail' and 'The National Enquirer'. Viruses such as Ebola, don't discriminate whatsoever.