Ian

It's extremely possible that I have both misunderstood and misrepresented him. But I believe his point is that while the body-mind apparatus, what he calls the David-thing, can still be said to have experiences, they are not experiences of enlightenment. You can't get far enough away from enlightenment to have an experience of it. Enlightment, the understanding, what is, IS the subject, is what has whatever passes for experiences. Does that make more sense? Of course not. If we understood it, we'd be it. As you wish. But he is very, very emphatic on the "cannot be expressed." There's no copyright on PBS, so I'll see if I can dig up some useful quotes for the scrapbook.

Depends what you're doing. My teacher advises people not to start his meditation practices within 6 months of exams as they can get a bit cloudy for a while. But that's a physical thing, based on having to pull downwards and there being a stage of passing through the head. I'm not personally aware enough to know whether I've been through that or not. Maybe you've been silencing your mind by developing a sort of trance, or otherwise dulling or blurring attention. What folks call mindfulness can be useful, in the sense of allowing the mind to be non-verbally interested in the characteristics of what is perceived. Maybe keeps it bright. Again, what I'm told, wouldn't know.

This is why I keep urging people to read Perfect Brilliant Stillness, because it's just so damn clear about all this stuff. But in short, re "Reasons for why enlightenment (as we define it) either is or isn't an experience.", the reason why it cannot be an experience, according to David Carse, is that an experience requires an experiencer, and that awakening involves the imaginary experiencer being permanently replaced by the understanding that there isn't and never was such a creature. And understanding, in that context, does not mean understanding as we understand it ( ), but is simply the closest available word. And anything further will be paradoxical riddles, because there's simply no alternative. As he repeatedly says "Does exist, cannot be expressed."

Just out of interest, how exactly could one prove, over the internet, the healing of cancer?

Sex is thought. Love is presence. (does the pretentious dance, and runs off to get a baked potato...)

Might be useful to be aware that "I am that" is, if not a mistranslation, at least an unhelpful translation. In Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj's native language it would come out a bit more like: "That" is what "I" is Which is an important distinction in that "that" is a shorthand for ultimate subjectivity, and really really needs to be the subject. All this from PBS.

I am That, by Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj and, especially, Perfect Brilliant Stillness by David Carse. The latter also available spoken by the actor Terence Stamp.

I think there are many different practices, and many different approaches to otherwise similar practices, all of which can get lumped together under the name of spontaneous qigong. For example there was a type of spontaneous qigong around about ten years ago, of which my healing tao friends would only say "the damage isn't always permanent" The impression I got was that people were easily led into stuff where vaguely subconcious forces were just acting out and leading them up the garden path while they thought stuff was actually being cleared. I liked what Ya Mu said about the difference between movements caused by high frequency vibrations and movements from other sources. My practice can involve spontaneous movements, but these only arise if one is sufficiently present, i.e. actively reclaiming internal territory, as opposed to allowing anything else in there. We are often warned about indulgence of the sort mentioned above. The first report quoted I've heard before, with specifics, and am tempted to give it some credence, but that shouldn't imply anything about any other group or practice.

Believe me, I'm not trying to argue with you about kunlun. I've stopped it, for different reasons, and I'm frankly agnostic about it. But I'm wondering if you're entirely sure about the above statements. I mean, how would you know for sure? In most traditions, as I understand it, to penetrate to the absolute depths of who you are is job done.

I got some matches somewhere... (pats pockets, moves piles of paper...) This is so wonderfully, utterly, beautifully wrong, (in my opinion, of course) that finally I can stop reading your posts. I've carried on long after I wanted to, curious about how someone can be so agreeably chatty and really very bright the one minute, and so completely, self-defeatingly, alienatingly, inconsiderate in communication the next. But now I've had enough. Thank you gold, fun while it lasted. P. S. Yodisattva vow unbroken, in my opinion.

I think there was some confusion a few posts back between: One) the ideas of eating no grains, i.e believe grains bad for you, eat other things. and Two) Bigu, eating no physical food. Sometimes, I think, referred to as avoiding the five grains, as in all five elemental types of food. I reckon Mak Tin Si was talking about the preparations for going Bigu, i.e. breatharian, and I for one am quite curious. I've only seen it presented before as something that kind of just happened after lots of high level practice. Had no idea you could plan it. I reckon if it hadn't happened it would have been something worse. In fact, I think it's definitely the lesser of two weevils. I'll get me coat.

First off, both in this question and all the others you've been asking, be advised that there is never one universally accepted answer. You'll have to form your own opinions in the long term, and for choosing harmless and enjoyable ways to investigate it usually boils down to finding people you'd quite like to be more like and doing a bit of what they do. So... chi is generally held to be in some sense imbetween jing (lumpy matter, coarse sexual energy) and shen (light, spirit ) So it can be felt, and can flow, and sorta makes everything, maybe. If your chi flows unobstructed you will be healthy, most probably. Getting it to flow unobstructed can be attempted by: One) Chi Kung (qigong), which is (usually) gentle movements with or without intention, visualising, directing. (big arguments here) Two) Nei Kung (neigong), which is internal and less obvious to spectators, and depending who you ask, dangerous/impossible or v.v. simple. Three) Meditation, which has some overlap with Two), but not much, usually. Meditation can mean a hundred different things, and there are further arguments as to whether it or chi kung is better for energetic health. In addition to unobstructed flow, some people also try to gather and increase chi, sometimes as a first step towards having enough stored in the belly to convert it for other purposes, sometimes just to feel all energised and vital. I think pretty much everyone is agreed that belly breathing is good, and that being in nature is great but you don't want to get dependent on it, and that not being pulled all over the place by negative thoughts and emotions is good. But I can't offhand think of anything else that everybody agrees on. Hope that helps. There is way more. Chew slowly, I'd suggest. Ian

Thing is, you're never paying for enlightenment. It's not possible. Hand over your x amount of dollars, say "right, where's my enlightenment?" Guru says "right there, can't you see it?" What you're paying for is techniques to get a wee bit more out of your own way, such that enlightenment becomes, if you're lucky, a tiny bit more possible. And the techniques are practical, of the world, developed by work, sometimes applied selectively according to analysis of the student, etc, etc. What's not to pay for? And, by the by, it is possible to have a teacher to whom you pay money, who is also very generous, who is your friend, and who nonetheless will occasionally rip your ego to shreds and expect you to enjoy it. But you gotta both be a bit grown up.

Just for topical relief, my mother finds celadrin very effective.

If all you're asking is my good intentions towards water purity, and an expression of those good intentions here, then count me in !

Sounds about right to me. I know one buddhist teacher who has explored his own, and can look at other people's, but he says it's hard work and he won't do it just to satisfy curiosity.

I know exactly what you mean, I think. Try doing the grimace, then letting the whole thing drop down. I find that loses the tension of it, while keeping the up-at-the-edges-ness, even if less pronounced. Also tucking the chin in a bit makes it seem less forced for me (and actually helps more than smiling!) All the best, I

It may be just a word thing. Experience of enlightenment is not enlightenment, if you're still there to have an experience. So that can be lost. But the understanding cannot possibly be lost because it replaces you. I'm told. Anyone who likes wei wu wei, do yourself/ves a favour and read Perfect Brilliant Stillness. It will render so much discussion obsolete. So clear. So unrelenting.

Interesting thread, thank you. Very hard to find positive male attributes/qualities. We live in a raging sea of false yang. Explosiveness, aggression, dominating the environment, exploiting the female, etc etc. A frightening number of women now display false yang attributes also, so pervasive is it. And then a lot of men feel they have to get even more false yang in order to have the yang advantage. Sadly a lot of so-called male empowerment degenerates into pick-up technques based on this principle. It makes a change from men going all false yin ("Am I ok, dear? Is my behaviour 100% acceptable? Please tell me it is...") but it's still a bunch of arse, in my opinion. True Yang? Hmmm. Being self-contained, not being distracted. Staying true to one's purpose. Being open honest, unembarrassed. Speaking one's truth, non-confrontationally, but clearly. That sort of thing. Just a very basic outline. I'm very keen to hear further ideas. And secondly, yes this acupuncture sounds great. Usually anything with "esoteric" in it make me shudder and run away, but this sounds good. I expect it varies a lot with the practitioner and what they can perceive. If your practitioner can recommend anyone in the UK, I'd love to hear about it. And for balancing the sides of body, I don't know much, but there are many exercises using both eyes together. I'd also suggest feldenkrais-y things where one opens both hands at once. Good luck, Ian

Is there not a medium to large sized irony here? Like people need no outside authority, but have to be told this? By, wait for it, an outside authority? If they really don't need an outside authority, then surely they can be left alone to realise this? OR.....is it not feasible that all the "unnecessary" teachers out there are working in their own sweet ways to help students get to the point where the students acknowledge and accept that they need no help.... For surely it seems that there are preconditions to accepting your truth, otherwise people wouldn't be ignoring it and arguing in the current fashion. No? (P.S. I know irony doesn't actually mean that, but it's an accepted usage, so what the hell...)

Please ignore me if I'm interrupting the flow - I only just noticed this great long thread. Just wanted to mention. Michael (AugustLeo) told me about Perfect Brilliant Stillness by David Carse. If you're investigating non-duality it is a wonderful book. As near to describing the indescribable as I imagine it's possible to get. I've been listening the spoken version, read by Terence Stamp. (Not on commission, no vested interest, blah blah) Ok, back to you guys, forget I was here !

That everyone, not just me, is making it up as they go along, hiding the doubts, papering over the cracks, trying to act functional. That what I really am has nothing at all to do with words. That I'm much more in the way than I think, and that all I really have to do is notice and stop doing stuff.

Interesting. My teacher says exactly that. 10,000 hours to start as a healer in his system, and 70,000 to be fully accomplished. Regarding intensive vs regular, Daniel Ingram, at least, is a big fan of both, but says that intensive can get you over humps such that the daily is then more valuable. Obvious, I guess.

Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

So, powering up my rusty apparatus in an attempt to produce reason: Why would you like ithe gain in stature to be fair? Why should other people go along with it in order to produce something you like? Do you believe that anyone appropriate assumes authoritative roles, ever? How do you define appropriate? Ok, reason switching off, as of now. Unreasonably, I would again like to ask if you'd be willing to supply any personal / biographical detail about yourself, however inconsequential. It would be nice to know more about you.