evZENy

Once again, apologies for my existence (or the illusion of it, if you prefer :-) Not familiar with Kashmir Shaivism. But happen to be learning from another Siddha tradition. I enjoyed greatly the explanation by T.N. Ganapathy in "The Yoga of Siddha Boganathar" on the Siddha systems and the problems in learning about the lives, teachings and even identities of the Siddhas. In the case of Bogar, who my teacher accepts as his own guru, there are lots of texts, supposedly written by himself. Full with magic and unbelievable accounts. Which gives the charm that many teachers have. For one, there is a theory, that he is Lao Tzu himself, which suits me perfect as then I have both worlds in one :-) I find this lineage quite interesting, very practical and applicable. While firmly attached to the scriptures, they seem to put a strong stress on one's own effort in finding the truth. Hence from my point of view, I do see lots of parallels with other mystic based teachings, incl. Tao. How this relates to the discussion? The most ignorant of you all, I dare suggest that even if we do not agree on the sameness of the concepts which started this thread (Dwai), we probably shouldn't be comparing teachings which are so broad, they can hardly be described systematically. Hinduism doesn't have a creator, so it relies on tons of scriptures. But how can you say what Hinduism means, if there are thousands of years and millions of words which all claim to be Hinduism? Even the different Siddha tradition look as different as separate religions! Buddhism has an originator, who used mainly Hinduist concepts to help the other realize in the same way he did. But did Buddha himself created all the heavy material discussed here? Or was it put down by followers of his followers of his followers...? Would he sign in the same way under Mahayana, Theravāda and Vajrayāna? And under each of their branches? If "yes", then all their differences don't matter. If "no", then some are better or all are wrong. Didn't he say "Appo Deepo Bhava" to remind us not to get attached even to him and his teaching? Isn't that the sign of the true master? Shouldn't we find a path that works for us, change if we feel like it. And stop wasting days and months comparing mental contructions than actually go into practice? To REALIZE these concepts. Since I haven't quoted anything yet, here is one. The last sentence of a not bad book: " ...only Buddhists have developed deep meditation. Everything else in Buddhism is just a help - not significant. You can even discard it. If you can meditate without any other help, then you can discard the rest." And even that is not the whole truth, as the author likes to tell in other books :-)

well said! (P.S. Osmium is heavier :-)

Z(:N... The concept of Metteyya Buddha is what gives me the flavor I don't like... Together with the many scriptures, philosophers, relics, remains, prayers etc... Based on his own words he wouldn't like it much either :-) My humble memory says that right after his dead the teaching split into the Early Schools, going all the way to 18-20 of them. Which is to be expected when humans are involved. And organized religion is born. Not sure what exactly was connected by B.C. - still lots of branches out there even today, no? Which is the reason why this arguments flying around here on Buddhism vs. Hinduism are not really worth the time reading - many of the branches probably disagree in the same way as the other religion does on some of the points, no? And Yes, the different approaches can lead to different outcomes. Unless one has been "enlightened" in several traditions (somehow loosing it in between :-), who is to tell which one is the right? And for every and each of us !? I am somewhat jealous of your experiences. And I work on mine. Would love to learn more - off line.

Vajrahridaya, You still use too many words. And too many quotes. You also take the position that A is better than B, which I also take sometime, just to remind myself that it's wrong later. All the people after Buddha who wrote about (and hence created) Buddhism had done the same what the church has done for Jesus - distort and kill his teaching (hence called correctly Paulinism by many scholars). At least Buddha predicted his teaching will die (in the original way) soon after his dead. Jesus probably didn't even expect there will be a teching on his name, especially since he realized his followers don't really get it :-) I guess we'll settle on Zen with you, which I like to say is good extraction of Buddha and Tao in one :-) evZENy (blink, blink :-)

Thanks for it, dear :-) Yes, you were rambling (nothing wrong with it of course :-). But I didn't ask about Taoism. I asked about Tao :-) You guys talk about Buddhism and Hinduism and not about Buddha and the Vedic rishis. Which is OK, because you are not them. Can't be. We can only read what's in their books and the books about them, and use our logic to create an explanation that hums well with us. And I guess that's OK too. I happen to believe one has to be a mystic, search for his own experience and realization. I know the energy meridians work, since I've worked with them and have seen the effects myself. Worked on others and they felt it too. Don't care where the system comes from. Today I may see them as nadis, tomorrow - as jingluo and next week - as keiraku. Does it matter? Does it make one of Ayurveda, TCM or TJM better than the others if I pick the word? Should I prefer to do Tai Chi, Yoga or Makko-Ho? Isn't my body the same independent of the system ? :-) All the wise guys who realized had to share their knowledge using words. And we are stuck to the latter, as this thread shows. Their best intentions turned into religions, philosophies and teachings. Every time. Unavoidable. But by following the latter we won't become any of the masters who started them. Because we are not. Even the cup of tea made in the same pot, using leaves from the same jar and the water from the same well is not the same as the previous cup :-)! I still enjoy the thread, as it tries at points to compare two Nothingnesses, which by definition of Nothing should be the same, but the mental concepts build around them don't agree with it :-) Keep on rambling! I mean - writing! :-)

Risking to be kicked through my monitor in my e-face, I am wondering where would you put the Tao in this discussion. Simple and ignorant as I am, I accept its presence in everything - material, phenomenal or not. Don't see any form of God in it (don't see Godness in anything). Yet I accept that Tao exists without borders and beyond time. Constantly changing it manifests as Reality with all its forms and their phenomena, which just transition into each other. Nothingness and Emptiness are Tao in its One-ness. I also enjoy tea. Sometime go for the green, often for the black, but recently even some puerh makes me purr. They all come from the same plant. Different people work it, brew it and drink it differently. Then taste is different. But the plant brings pleasure and joy to all the million different palates longing for it, despite its numerous forms. Or because of them? :-)

Time for another reminder. This site is called The TAO Bums. It's all Tao, my friends. And as it says in TTC: I don't know who gave birth to it. It is older than God. Keep on making the wind. Just keep in mind what the pharse means in French :-)

I am still confused how two Emptinesses can be compared !? If they are empty - there is nothing to compare :-) Seems like you compare concepts of the Emptiness, without having experienced it. That would be similar to compare in which language the word for "tree" or "rose" or "life" is the best one. You either know what tree is, how rose smells like and what to be alive is. Or you've wasted too much time reading books. And, yes, I have no idea what are you arguing about :-)

Didn't all the wise ones say we shouldn't be talking too much !? This threads is painful to read - so many words and mental concepts... I am sure the crickets chirping under the stars outside won't care either... A friendly reminder from Rumi: Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and right doing, There is a field, I'll meet you there.

Are there any Taoist temples that offer lodging similar to the 'shukubo' in the Japanese Buddhist temples? Could be in any country. Thank you! e.

Sorry for renewing the question, but I was planning to start a new thread and found this one. I've been reading recently some Taoist methods of working with a tree. Quite detailed - different levels of interaction (energy exchange, purification etc.), what type, size, age of trees etc. I usually practice under an old willow tree and tried some of the things today. Which got me even more interested :-) So my question is for systematic, purposeful practice with a tree. Otherwise - yes, we all enjoy them and like to be around them. As the book says - they are big, rooted and always in meditation - can't help but love them :-) Let me know, please, if you use such approaches! Thanks!

Reading all this I want to be able to walk in an old village somewhere and find a guy who works in the rice fields, drinks when he is thirsty and sleeps when he is tired. Where are these guys? I heard one of them was invited here in the USA 1-2 years ago, but he disappeared back in his village... The trouble with the real people of Tao is they do not look for publicity. And those who do, are not the real people of Tao (to rephrase you know what :-)

Neither does requoting pages and pages of what the others said :-) Sure, if you don't agree with my points, you are free to disagree. Would be nice to have your own. And doesn't make either of us right. This became too unsubstantial and monologish for my lack of time... Enjoy the rest of it :-)

I guess you don't share my Taosit opinion, that words are meaningless. But since you insist on this and I am a simple person, I can answer to your two points. If you read my statement carefully, it says: "Politicians and bankers are not guilty, that people jump to get loans they can not afford to pay back." I didn't say they are not guilty for the mess. I say they are not gulity for the stupid decisions people make. No flip-flopping here! As for "guilty" and "responsible" - that's so much non Taoist to compare - there are dictionaries to check with. Just a small example, from a non-native English speaker like me, to wrap up this before dinner: Your child breaks the neighbor's window while playing baseball. Who's guilty? Your child. Who's responsible? You. have a good Now! Hyok, I happen to be reading the US constitution right now. Where the power of the government branches is defined. The president is not the one creating and voting the bill that doesn't pass the Congress. he is the one who can sign it into law or veto it. Not sure where exactly you see him failing. So far I see only positive things. And a Congress that still acts like 6 years olds who play war with each other. And don't care for the people who put them there.

MPWay 1. There isn't a difference between beeing guilty for something and being responsible for it? 2. Shouldn't we try not to get attached to the words? JOEBLAST True. Wars also start from the government. But it's the people who go and die on the front. That's part of the agreement - we elect the government with the agreement, that they use us to fight in wars. In the same way - we've allowed for the government to create legislative failure, but it's us, the people, who have agreed to use it! I still wait for an example, where someone was FORCED to get a sweet loan to buy a house (or whatever else). If no one was going for the amazing deals, would the crisis be created !? If no one wanted to get the low-interest-don't-ask-why-it's-0%-downpayment loans, how were the bad credits going to be created? I enjoyed watching the Flashvideo explaining where the money comes from, who makes it and how does it change with the time. very simple, but most of us don't think about it! Let's say thinking about how the stock market or gloabl economy is too much. But learning the meaning and the value of money... It is in the revolutions, when the people say to the government: "OK, the deal is over. You are out - new rules" In the same way the rules wealth is created, the meaning of money, the economic growth - all will have to change. With a revolution. Which can not come without change of the consciousness for most of us. I am just sharing what wiser people than us here seem to think. From my Taoist practice I got convinced in what I only knew before: Things that can be paid for are not the real source of happiness. Things that can be stolen from you are not the real source of happiness. Things that can be replaced or thrown away and you still can survive are not the real source of happiness. So if you want to be happy - why go after them first!? My humble opinion.

Or complete cow? :-) Sure - the guys who trick you into signing are responsible as well. Would never say they aren't. However, this would be like blaming the drug dealers for the drug addiction. Yes, without them people won't get stoned. But it's the demand of the people that justifies their "business". Since I have perfect credit and lots of saved money in the bank I used to receive phone calls offering me up to a million in loans! Well, a paper, a pencil and few brain cells are enough to figure out, that it's a risk not worth taking. So I didn't. I rather spend my money travelling, helping people in my poor country or elsewhere and of course - taking Tai Chi classes :-), than living in a big house that I don't really need. Have few friends stack now with 2 houses. And even the ones with 1 just complain how hard life is. Well, it isn't. Life is what you make out of it. So that is my point. We say at home: "It' snot crazy, who eats the whole cake, but whoever offers it to him". People decided to offer their future to the bankers, who saw the opportunity to make the easy money. I don't blame the ones or the others - just feel sorry, that nowadays people seem to be so blinded by the material, that some of them end up killing their families and themselves at the end, when their dreams got shattered. I am just sceptical if the lesson will be learnt for this and the next generations.

Again - not sure how sharing my fear of how people make statements that are against the Constitution (e.g. freedom to practice religion and the right of everyone to be elected in federal office despite his religious believe or absence thereof) makes me judgmental. Not that I really care. I just make an observation. Judging is more like guessing someone age by the way they type :-) And format their sentences :-) As for the topic - I have accepted Osho's view on people who get in politics... And I don't say Obama is going to save this country. It's way too messed up right now. And it is human greed that led to the mess we are in today. Politicians and bankers are not guilty, that people jump to get loans they can not afford to pay back. Hence it will need revolution of human consciousness to start getting things in a better shape. Seems like the time has come for a new economic, social and political revolution. Globally. The current "free market" economy proved it is not the answer, as the socialism in the way it was practiced wasn't. As someone who tries to reflect on the Tao, one should understand the constant need of movement, the forthcoming fall of the strong and the unavoidable suffering for many. Life moves on. Obama or not in power. Republicans or Democrats in power (can't wait to get an alternative :-) USA or someone else in power. Not-so-young people can take the "stupid" risk to move to a different place if they believe that only the rolling stones don't get...:-) "In making a move, know how to choose the right moment" TTC 8 "...To move constantly in the path of Virtue" TTC 28

:-) I don't judge anyone. Feel sorry for them. And express surprise by what I read here. Including your remakrs on my post :-) On the second post - don't know. How old is old enough? :-) And how an opinionon Switzerland reveals one's age or/and arrogance !?

I am afraid there are quite a lot of people thinking like this Texan guy. Scary for me too. Another scary thing - even people in this forum seem to thik along the same lines. And it is supposed to be a forum for people trying to wake themselves up. Imagine the ones who feel fine sleeping in front of the TV or in their beloved churches... Gets quite scary to think about it some times. I am thinking of moving to Switzerland...

mYTHmAKER, to add to forestofsoul. The closing of the orbit with the tongue is quite important as can be seen in most of the teachings discussing energy cultivation and circulation. For me the best way to do it is move the tongue back and forth until it gets the sensation of connecting the energy flow coming from the Governor channel into the Functional channel. I recently had to learn a lot about the structure of the mouth and throat (related to the science of sleep). For example I used to suck my thumb till I was 9 years old. And my palete is very high. Depends whether you were breastfed or not, your genes etc., you will have different shape and size of the mouth cave and tongue. So for me, the point is significantly high and back. Lifting my tongue it is rolled and touches indeed with the underside of the tip. I've seen it described this way by other systems as well (e.g. Mantak Chia) I've tried to search behind the teeth, but dont get the flow, so I go where I find it :-)

> Is it unnatural for a bird to intervene with the nature of their nest and start adding shiny blue objects to it? No, it is not. The bird gets whatever it finds and considers useful. Because there are more and more unnatural things available, there are more and more animals who die or damage themselves suffocated by, caught in, swallowed etc. our unnatural creations. So their choice is natural. The chosen things are not :-) Same with humans. Of course, everyone wants to be liked and works on changing themselves in a way to be (what one believes :-) more likable. It's also about the need to be unique. And of course, you can reach to the point, that you can generate a fashion of being unique (let's say piercing and tatoos), which by the definition of "fashion" makes you not so unique after all :-) So as far as that is concerned I will some waht disagree with you, despite your valid points. The way we shave, colour (you are not in the US? :-) etc our hairs, for example, is a question of fashion, hence it is cultural programming. 20 years ago in my country I haven't heard about waxing one's more intimate parts (kind of new in US too - read the history of the Brazilian Wax recently :-). Now it's a must. Look at the chess hair in the James Bond movies - how it changes witht the years/episodes :-) It is our desire to be like the others (so we don't get rejected) opposed to the other desire to be unique, that we follow in making these choices. Comparing the cultures even today or slicing a culture through the time you can see how the trends differ and change - about shapes, hair, clothes etc. They do sell artificial intimate hair in Japan that you add down there, while here on this site of the ocean painfully remove it! Go figure :-) Don't recall any person of Tao to be concerned with these things. I guess that was my whole point. I understand I don't follow in the currently accepted norm, but I don't plan to change my nature, so someone finds me less disgusting :-) smiles :-)

Just few points. The numerology in the Chirstian literature (Theomatics) is quite strong and has its Jewish (Kabbalah - gematria) and Greek (isopsephia) roots. Good to check with it, because even the Christians are not quite familiar with it and misinterpret many numbers (everyone knows 666, but few talk about 888 for example. Similar with the reversed star - few people have a clue of the original meaning!). Just finished reading few interesting articles on that. So unless you are uneducated Christian - why do you care? If you are not - can't the number mean something else? Exempli gratia, since I became obsessed with "The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy" I see 42 everywhere. Probably more than you see 333. At least once a week I send e-mails to my equally obsessed friends with a new revelation :-) [makes me think - didn't I join TaoBums on 4/2? Nope 4/3. Man that was close. Like 335 would be for you? :-)] And we have a good laugh at it. Demons are created by us. Check lots of the more reasonable teachings and books - from Bardo Thodol to Tao and Osho. So don't create one. Divide by 111 (which summed is 3 again!) and think about the role of Trinity in all world religions :-) [e.g. Yang, Yin and Chi] P.S. Not much help if you are uneducated Christian :-)

Dude / Dudess. Natural are the things that happen without your intervention. Like your hair growing. The first 20-something years. Then stopping. Or thinking about sex (and then stopping? :-). Getting hungry. Or angry :-) The things that we humans don't touch and they go on their own way, a.k.a. Nature, where "Natural" comes from. That's what "reality as it is" is. Not Gillette :-) Well, there is a reality of the fashion of shaving, but that doesn't make it natural (unless you get on Wayfarer64 point, and we should indeed move it somewhere else then). The growing of the hair on your body is the Natural thing - it is on the man, but not caused by him. Why can't you accept that !? :-) And as Eric says below (sorry man, didn't read the posts), the point of course is, that you can't be looking at this practices which work with energies and are on spiritual level and be still concerned with the looks. Especially if you don't ask your partner if he doesn't object the way you look :-) The first Tantra teacher I met was one of the fattest women I had seen by then (lived in Europe at the time and she came from the US :-). Yet she knew and could teach a lot, because Kundalini doesn't get better cultivated in the good looking people. Or the shaved ones (again - the two things are not the same :-). I hope that cleared, that I (or a sage) don't have to think anything about reality - it just IS. My hairs grew few more unshaved microns while I finished that :-) Good points Wayfarer64. No reason to get serious about a joke :-) But still can be used to bring unrelated serious questions. smiles

With all the respect, edepot, didn't hear or see any secrets in the video. Tai Chi symbol 101. And only part of it. My daughter knew more about the symbol (as well as the nice horse story published in several children books) at the age of 3. And she also drew it more correctly - with a dark circle in the light part (seems like empty circle in the video). It would be more interesting if you could answer why red and not black is used, because that is a secret many people don't know. That's how I have it on my uniform. Otherwise you are just promoting your site and products. Not sure if this is the right place to do it (read: pretty sure it is not :-)

Similarly to forestofsouls I study in Master Liao's school. He has given quite reasonable answers - I can just sign behind them. And try to bring even more objective balance to the topic. Also to the original question - master Liao warns in his book that not only this practice, but many practices at lower levels SHOULD NOT be done without proper supervision. It is true, that just because someone writes a book it doesn't make him an expert. Even when he writes few books, which is the case with Master Liao. It is the acceptance of the book by the peers and its effect on the lay men, that the person should be judged by. And you may guess I don't say that without a reason :-) I dare say we are all lay men here (a sage won't waste his time chatting in a forum ? :-). And I can see his books have had an effect, though different in different people. Which is normal and to be expected. Similarly, while the center is in Illinois, Master Liao is often invited and travels not only the US, but around the world to teach. And his book has been translated in quite few languages. Read this in any way you are biased to :-) On the single hand form approach. I happen to have studied the system of William C.C. Chen, have his book etc. Never have been taught or seen him or anyone from his school mentioning it. And yes, other people may use the concept, which does not mean they understand it. The same way I use airplanes or my PC in the moment :-) And yes, please don't put the "=" sign when you mention Liao and Clyman in one sentence. I admit I studied with Bruce Lee, OK ? :-). And even if I had, that won't mean what I "teach" has anything to do with what Bruce Lee taught or he would have aproved it, right ? :-) On the White Crane discussions - just a smile, guys. Want to keep the good tone and sense of humour, expected by the people of the Tao :-) Send Master Liao an e-mail and ask him, if you are so curious about it and his background. Have a good NOW!