exorcist_1699

The classification of Taoism as philosophical or religious is some kind of Western conventional wisdom, which does not fit Taoism ; never should it be subject to such kind of arbitrary slicing. To me Taoism looks more like some kind of 'hybrid ' : When we consider Taoism's repeatedly stress about proofs , in every step or stage of our practice , so as to justify its theory , it looks nothing different from any Western scientific discipline. However, its claim about spirit 's capability of existing outside of us , which no science can agree to , makes many people astonished , maybe disappointed; they reluctantly admit that Taoism can be a religion ... How careless Taoist Western followers are ! When they are told that qi exists everywhere , inside or outside of our body, they should then sense the theoretical implication of the above assertion for wherever there is qi, based on the logic of Taoist equation : jing-qi-shen, there is an extra spiritual dimension , shen, co-exists with it , notwithstanding it has nothing to do with the Western sense of being religious . Besides, Taoist ability of providing basic interpretation for all things happen in this universe , of course, defines itself as a philosophical system.. Last but not the least, because Taoism lays the foundation of all basic healing principles for the Chinese medicine, including acupuncture, it is undoubtedly a medical system. The fact that TCM's most important classics , the " Huangdi Neijing"("黃帝內經") , is always classified and included in the Taoist canons (" 道蔵 " ) , only reconfirms us this.

Even Enlightenment can have many layers and deepness , so describing it as "sudden " and likely banging is true, but hardly is it something final . A Tang Dynasty Chinese monk deliberately writes a very famous book called 《頓悟入門 》 ( "Initial guidelines for sudden Enlightenment" ) which teaches people how . Its methodological beauty and simplicity is amazing, but better read it in Chinese, otherwise its effect is largely abated . An abrupt appearance of Taoist meta-Mind (元神) is similar to Buddhist Enlightenment , the difference is that in Taoist case, there are always accumulated jing and qi to pop IT up . Just raise a simple example : when we are tired , we can't memorize and understand well what we are reading despite how simple the materials they are. Enlightenment is a much deeper and clearer kind of understanding with extra spiritual dimension , so we need to accumulate much more jing and qi .... and IT will come upon us at sometime... suddenly ; that means never should we deliberately search for IT :- )

Mindlessness can have many layers, maybe endless layers.... The ability of crossing these layers with ease defines how talented you are in qigong/Taoist practice; more precisely speaking , it enables how delicate and powerful the qi you can initialize ; qi and the mindless Mind is just two faces of the same coin: Tao . A forever deepening mindless Mind that doesn't mind Itself is what we want ( that means never should you try to search ; whenever you try to search /attain it , you lose it ...) .

Make use of what seems useless , for example, emptiness in front of our eyes .. :- )

I think Deci Belle is talking about something many Chinese Taoists hesitant ( more candidly speaking , timid ) to express it so explicitly...; her/his explanation may not be 100% correct, but it really involves something crucial especially when we enter the higher level of our practice. What is lack of here is the concept of post-heavenly and pre-heavenly when we explain things in terms of 5 elements, for example , at post-heavenly qi level water doesn't give rise to metal , it gives rise to wood ; it is a jump from post-heavenly level to pre-heavenly level , through counteracting the fire , that water becomes pre-heavenly metal ( primordial qi / Meta-mind ). Consider how difficult all other religions in fighting against our senses/ desires / fluctuating daily consciousness, Taoist treatment , the formula of " water counteracts fire" , of the issue is really a great invention for human beings...

One of the achievement of Taoist alchemy is the identification of the existence of a divided self ( note: nothing to do with the Western medical term 'schizophrenia' ) inside us : One exists on the top , one seemingly hides below us , likely somewhere in the abdomen region , and the fight of them against each other...; the existence of such a divided self is undeniable just by seeing how many times guys regret of having done their ejaculation, but then keep repeating their mistakes... In fact, the more the jing we accumulate , the stronger the bottom self grow , making the further accumulation of jing more difficult.... How Xing ( ' 性 ' , the spiritual Nature /Self ) assimilate the ' desirous self ' ( ' 情 ' ) , in Chinese , the term so-called "以性攝情" , is never a simple issue , but something life-and-death . It is also one of the critical issues hardly can we solve it ourselves , no matter how clever we are, but require some keys from others...

Repairing the "undermined" jing is a life and death issue, and it can only be done by the following ways: 1)Post-heavenly way: you eat better and rest longer, your jing then starts to re-accumulate again .But as people getting older and older , they find this way gradually becomes not workable ...This is why loss of memory, easy to become tired, sour pains in muscle, loosen teeth.. are difficult to cure . 2) Pre-heavenly way : No matter how old you are, your jing can be repaired . However , if following the Taoist dual cultivation, an opposite sex of you is needed. On the other hand ,in single cultivation , you need to know how to enter a non-dual spiritual status.

Thanks .

To ChiDragon and DAO rain TAO : Non-dual spiritual way or awareness is a Buddhist term , which tells us to place our mind neither in the past , nor in the future; stick to neither goodness nor evil ; focus on neither the inside nor the outside..., so that it is easier for us to situate our mind in a state of nowhere. But what is the purpose of this ? People may ask. For the Taoists , it is to initialize higher -quality qi, but the Buddhists don't agree or don't say it clearly, so most people follow it just fall into a state of unproductive void and still think that it is what they are told to do , or what they can achieve.. Clearly, underlying that " state of nowhere" , certain deepness is needed to dig , otherwise it is useless besides giving us a feeling of peace ; it is like digging a well, if only at a depth of 100 feet can people reach the water, it seems futile to ask people to do it if you know most of them ( 99.99%) are only capable of digging 10 feet... Taoist greatness is that , by introducing jing and qi, we can always counter check the deepness of our spiritual adventure by using them as reference. Dual cultivation is a Taoist term , it has too implications: - it refers to a practice in which you need an opposite sex to help you repairing the undermined status of jing and qi . - It refers to the essence of Taoist alchemy , which in fact is the intercourse between Shen ( spirit) and Qi ( as jing is already absorbed in it , so just mention Qi is enough). Which implication I use depends on what I want to elaborate in that particular case :-)

Repair of jing ( the term is true to both sex, only in the female body, it appears a little more complicated ) , its achievement can be expressed in different layers or stages: Skin layer : your skin looks brighter,or wrinkles, say those around your eyes , flattened; Bone layer : Fixing of loosen tooth, re- blackening of white hair.. Marrow layer : cure of deadly disease, maintenance of the density of bone, rebirth of fallen tooth.. Experienced practitioners clearly can sense the quality /subtlety of the qi they initialize , which is proportional to how full and pure the jing they can accumulate...

Hardly do my teachers appear to me as any physical forms, they mostly come upon me as some kinds of apocalyptic inspirations in my meditation , my half-sleeping or reading of the classics :-) Although my way is not so common , it is not exceptional in Taoist history ; there are several records of similar cases..

Once again it reassures me: Better read the original Chinese Taoist writings; Why? It is same as if you want to know the essence of Modern Physics, you don't read a Chinese secondary school Physics teacher's writings published in China, no matter how talented he is, you read Bohr's or Feynman's...

In fact, it is only when the qi we can initialize is small and weak that makes us limited to some location, say the lower or upper Dantian. If that qi we can initialize growing bigger and bigger , such an emphasize becomes less meaningful . For example , when we focus our attention on the the upper Dantian, we can immediately feel the rise of qi from our lower Dantian, or vice versa ; even if we project our attention to the space somewhere outside us , say the space some distant from our eyes, we can still find qi arising inside our body; of course, the best is having a capability of pay attention to ' nowhere' and still find some qi rising inside ,even outside us ... To any individual in this world , I think nothing can be more blessing or happier than the capability of initializing some energy at hands just somewhere close to him/her , whenever he /she needs it .

Thank you for your questions. Although I know many instances of what you ask , I don't want to go through them here for even I raise them in detail , people will still challenge them and raise doubts in this or that way... after all, it is personal experiences , those proofs, that persuade people most . So, to be candid, besides the ' Spirit leaving body ' part , most mentioned are mainly from personal experiences... After hearing that, even I continue to boast of how many volumes of Dao Zhan( 道蔵 ) and Buddhist Sutras that I ever read, people here will still blame me : Why you carelessly believe and preach that part/ level you have not experienced/reached? My argument is that if all Taoist preaching about Jing and Qi meet my past experiences, then why the masters cheat me or why they exaggerate in the final part / higher level? In addition, sometime you need to believe in your own theoretical insight ....and, Taoist theory is a coherent system , I mean , on some occasions it looks like a scientific system ; let me explain : if you know that the gravitational force of the moon is just around 1/6 of our earth's, then before the US astronauts ever walked on it , you should already have imagined the approximate manners of how their bounce around ; if you later hear the Chinese astronauts claim about their success in walking on the moon , but moving like a heavy gorilla , you of course can laugh at them.. Similarly , if you are told that Qi exists everywhere , inside and outside of us , and in our body , it is Qi's existence that make our spirit ( shen) alive , then you should have a theoretical sense to reason that a refined spirit , with all the essence (Jing + Qi) absorbed in it, should get the possibility of living outside of our body ( ie, nourished by external Qi) .... In fact, the capabilities of eating less and less, sleeping less and less , stopping our breathing at our own will ..bit by bit , don't they already point to us the growing strength of this Qi+shen , and its capacity of shaking off those biological shackles gradually , to become more independent ?

Thank you for your openness. In fact, I am occasionally lazy to write my own post and choose to make use of other member's , which by accident meets my point of view to elaborate something in more detail ; so there is nothing personal , nor should it be viewed as my deliberately targeting at someone... Anyway, when we read the Taoist writings, let say the famous " Preaching of masters Chung and Lu" ( 鍾呂傳道集) , we always find quite a typical style as follows : First, the masters talk about the principles underlying the practice, then they tell you the ways and the physical outcomes , as proofs, after your having practiced these ways.. Why mention the physical symptoms on the body? why not the spiritual aspects ? Simply because they are the least disputable : A smoothening of a deep wrinkle on our face or a rebirth of a fallen tooth is so explicit that hardly can people argue against it . Besides, shouldn't the simple proof of immortality start from our capability of reversing aging ? Maybe at first look , it seems Taoist Neidan also uses some kinds of digits or diagrams, and says that they are magical, for example , saying Fire is 2 , Earth is 5 ..etc, yet it is really a cloak somewhat deliberately made to cover what really talk about are Jing , Qi, Shen ..which unfortunately does confuse many people .

Nathan's comparison are , regrettably , superficial and just repeating those conventional ideas. He ignores Taoist demands , which represent the most important argument from the East , on both spiritual and physical proof when talking about immortality ( BOTH spiritual and physical ) . Such an emphasize on physical proofs makes Taoism close to science, which also makes it free from the trap of mysticism that no other religions/ systems of thought can avoid. In the practice towards immortality ,Taoist Neidan talks about things such as the capability of eating less and less, an abrupt change of our way of breathing , fixing loosen teeth, change of the color of our feces and blood, our sweating becoming less and less..etc , and their corresponding spiritual changes , all are so unique that hardly any system , even the Indian , can cover them so detailed , so deep. When talking about the spiritual proof, Taoism emphasize the difference between nourishing a Yin spirit and a Yang Spirit despite both of them can be refined to exist outside our body; it also talks about those steps, symptoms (say , " snow falling from the sky" ) and precautions ( say , " splitting another Spirit as a safeguard for the body") for our Yang Spirit (Shen) in its process of leaving the body that even the Tibetan Buddhist preaching can hardly match. Maybe I sound a little harsh, but the Eastern achievement, mainly Taoist, in anti-aging , in attaining immortality ,are in fact unmatchable ; on the other hand, although the Chinese invent the compass, the printing , the gunpowder , the missile..., their dislike of separating the object from the subject, analyzing and rendering things to their smallest units , abstracting their reasoning into strange symbols and doing tedious calculations... all makes them go astray from the road towards something we now call it science.

Women start from the middle Dantian (middle of breast) , ordinary men start from their lower Dantian; Talented people start from the upper Dantian , genius start from the Dantian of nowhere.

No exaggeration, it is really Taoist point of view about Dantian ; concretely speaking , the theory of the so-called ' Magic Gateway' (" 玄關") . Its clear explication* is at least ,say 200 years , earlier than those ideas in modern Physics... However, two points have to be pointed out : 1) The Magic Gateway 's location is NOT at the "lower dantian"; 2) It is always something Mind /Spirit related ( as the Dao De Jin says: "谷神不死, 是謂玄牝; 玄牝之門，是謂天地根"; ch.6) ; in modern Physics , on the contrary , insists that anything intelligent can only appear billions of years after the "Big Bang" .. *See Liu I-Ming's writings, also see :《唱道真言 》;

If you attach to something , anywhere or any level of your mind , then you already are not or unable to enter the state of " Samadhi " , so how can you claim " get attached to Samadhi" ? Isn't Samadhi something free of any attachment? Forgive me to say that such a warning is contradictory , or even ridiculous, I wonder why so many incompetent "masters" are said to be living in the West ..

I wonder any preexisting, presided concept , say "not allowing myself to lose consciousness" is good, or any concept of expecting something , great or strange, be happening is good; in such way , right before you start, you already failed for you have used a "post-heavenly " ( or yin-typed) mind to prevent the possible emergence of a meta-Mind ( Taoists call it 'Yuan Shen', Buddhists call it 'Buddha Heart')... It is only after the pseudo one 'lost', the real One arises...

More and more people are becoming capable of reading Taoist material in Chinese, so on the internet , how to search and identify the right content, needs some guidelines: 1) Nearly most of Taoist books and material can be found free or free to download online, some websites are especially abundant in such contents : baidu.com ; sina.com; 360.com..etc provided that you can input the right words; 2) Many contents of Neidan ( internal Taoist alchemy ) are in fact hidden in TCM writings, so in order to find them , sometimes you better search for TCM contents, not Taoist alchemist , especially you are oriented to find some cure for certain disease or you are in fact interested in medical qigong; 3) Taoist alchemical material written in or before the Yuan Dynasty, owing to full of strange jargons : tiger, dragon, lead, mercury ,baby..etc, are in fact, unreadable to most Chinese, not to speak of foreigners, so better choose those written after that period , ie, material written in Ming or Ching Dynasty. Besides, the language used is a little close to the modern Chinese, so they are likely easier to understand . 4)Material written after 1949 , year of the Communist takeover, although full of scientific terms, most of them are unlikely to be useful .. I mean if you are searching for the essence of Taoism ; if you are searching for material related to medical qigong, then it is another story.

Although from time to time, there is always someone who stands out and points out some common misconception in people's understanding of Taoism , it seems a rough summary ­­ of them is helpful : 1) The Micro cosmic circulation that most prevailing qigong adopt , which makes use of qi existing in our organs and the meridians, grants us no eternal life; the most of its effect is to help us curing some diseases or becoming a little younger ; because of this, even we do that kind of MCC for 100 years, we still can't become an immortal. 2) Neidan is different from qigong, more precisely speaking , different from those varied kinds of medical qigong we can easily come across in the West ; the key is , whenever we mention ' dan', it refers to something that can ultimately solve the key issue of our life, not those relatively minor issues : cancers, AIDS..etc; 3) Dantian is not any kind of acupuncture point, it is nothing already existing there; in fact, different from acupuncture points that exist even when we are in a status of sleeping , dantian appears only after our having reached certain level in our practice. 4)Pre-heavenly and post- heavenly qi is not classified by the time sequence: One exists earlier than other..; 5) Whenever we talk about Dual Cultivation , we mainly refer to the intercourse between Shen and qi, not between male and female; the prevailing sex practices , in whatever forms they appear , all work at the post-heavenly qi level , therefore hardly can they enhance our life force, but undermine it.

Really ? I do hope so ... To many Chinese Taoists who knows the TTJ and have some practice , the TTJ talks quite a lot about the basic principles of Taoist alchemy , but hardly can many foreign Taoists accept such a claim . For example, to the Chinese Taoists, wuwei can't be interpreted as 'doing nothing ' or ' doing things in a natural way'..,so unless we can initialize the ' primordial qi ' , the application of wuwei is difficult...; however, since the TTJ doesn't mention the 'primordial qi ' , we are blamed as adding some alien element into the pure , original Taoism ..etc.

Never is dantian a concept of TCM , and we should always keep in mind about its difference with an acupuncture point. If an acupuncture point is a specific , quite precise point at which we insert a needle into so as to get qi, then dantian is an indefinite area , its appearance always spirit-related ; a place our mind better not presupposes where it is , what it is .. In fact, never should we presuppose how big , how deep , where dantian is for dantian is like some kind of ' white hole ' in the human ' micro-cosmos' ; although we can measure the size of a physical white hole, maybe based on its mass and density (?), hardly can we measure the size of the dantian for whenever it appears, we enter the world of primordial qi in which size , time sequence , order of things ..is governed by another set of rules. This is why when talking about dantian, the Taoist classics in many cases describe it as " 其大無外, 其小無內" ( " so big that it has no boundary, so small that it has no substance/ singularity " ; these descriptions are , sadly always mistaken by some shallow mind , as some kind of relativism .. ) ; this is why foretelling those not-yet-happened is possible...

Although Micro cosmic Circulation is widely experienced and talked about by many Taoists , it can't reach that degree we claim fundamental ; the two most fundamental principles I think of are : 1) The jing-qi-shen process/ framework; 2) The principle of dual cultivation ( Spiritual cum Physical ) ; That means, even people don't experience MCC , the methods they adopt can still be Taoist. However, if anyone doesn't talk or follow 1) or 2) , then hardly can we claim his/ her Taoist; in other words , his may belong to Buddhist or other Yoga's... How about Yin and yang ? people may ask.... because both I-Ching and the Confucians talk about it , so it is not the sole Taoist suff..