xabir2005

you and I have different understanding of emptiness then. Eternalists have also said that their atman is unfindable, yet it exists. Obviously emptiness is not just being unable to pin down its whereabouts. Emptiness is about seeing through the reification of extreme views such as existence, etc. just like we impute car-ness of car, chariot-ness of chariot, weather-ness of weather when they are completely conventional designations without real existence. You can't pin down true existence but not merely because it cannot be located.

Wisdom.

there is nothing wrong with what I said. Recognizing clarity is not the same as realizing its emptiness.

i am not talking about meaning but the realization of it.

you don't need shentong view. It can be extreme depending. You need to have direct realization of luminous mind and perceive its emptiness.

Tony Parsons is talking about substantial non duality, or the one mind. Now obviously, luminosity is not something that needs to be developed. Th mind is already luminous by nature, as Buddha pointed out, only that it is temporarily obscured by adventitious defilements. The only development is in the purification of such adventitious defilements. Then when the luminosity unveils, simply relax into natural clarity.

bump

Indeed. The Clear Light* as emphasized in teachings like Shentong is actually important, but should not be reified as the HHDL carefully pointed out. *This luminosity of mind is taught right in the earliest teachings of Buddha in the Pali Canon: AN 1.49-52 PTS: A i 10 (I,v,9-10; I,vi,1-2) Pabhassara Sutta: Luminous translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 1995–2012 "Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person — there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that — for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones — there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2}

http://hhdl.dharmakara.net/hhdlquotes22.html Philosophical questions on Creation Select a link to find the Dalai Lama's answer. "You have said that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no Creator, no God of creation, and this may initially put off many people who believe in a divine principle. Can you explain the difference between the Vajrayana Primordial Buddha and a Creator God?" "...Like all spiritual traditions, Buddhism conveys a cosmogonic myth. And yet Buddhism rejects the idea of creation. Why?...Would you [also] ... speak to us about consciousness in its relation to matter and the universe?" Q: You have said that according to Buddhist philosophy there is no Creator, no God of creation, and this may initially put off many people who believe in a divine principle. Can you explain the difference between the Vajrayana Primordial Buddha and a Creator God? A: I understand the Primordial Buddha, also known as Buddha Samantabhadra, to be the ultimate reality, the realm of the Dharmakaya-- the space of emptiness--where all phenomena, pure and impure, are dissolved. This is the explanation taught by the Sutras and Tantras. However, in the context of your question, the tantric tradition is the only one which explains the Dharmakaya in terms of Inherent clear light, the essential nature of the mind; this would seem imply that all phenomena, samsara and nirvana, arise from this clear and luminous source. Even the New School of Translation came to the conclusion that the "state of rest" of a practitioner of the Great Yoga--Great Yoga implies here the state of the practitioner who has reached a stage in meditation where the most subtle experience of clear light has been realized--that for as long as the practitioner remains in this ultimate sphere he or she remains totally free of any sort of veil obscuring the mind, and is immersed in a state of great bliss. We can say, therefore, that this ultimate source, clear light, is close to the notion of a Creator, since all phenomena, whether they belong to samsara or nirvana, originate therein. But we must be careful in speaking of this source, we must not be led into error. I do not mean chat there exists somewhere, there, a sort of collective clear light, analogous to the non-Buddhist concept of Brahma as a substratum. We must not be inclined to deify this luminous space. We must understand that when we speak of ultimate or inherent clear light, we are speaking on an individual level. Likewise, when we speak of karma as the cause of the universe we eliminate the notion of a unique entity called karma existing totally independently. Rather, collective karmic impressions, accumulated individually, are at the origin of the creation of a world. When, in the tantric context, we say that all worlds appear out of clear light, we do not visualize this source as a unique entity, but as the ultimate clear light of each being. We can also, on the basis of its pure essence, understand this clear light to be the Primordial Buddha. All the stages which make up the life of each living being--death, the intermediate state, and rebirth--represent nothing more than the various manifestations of the potential of clear light. It is both the most subtle consciousness and energy. The more clear light loses its subtlety, the more your experiences take shape. In this way, death and the intermediate state are moments where the gross manifestations emanating from clear light are reabsorbed. At death we return to that original source, and from there a slightly more gross state emerges to form the intermediate state preceding rebirth. At the stage of rebirth, clear light is apparent in a physical incarnation. At death we return to this source. And so on. The ability to recognize subtle clear light, also called the Primordial Buddha, is equivalent to realizing nirvana, whereas ignorance of the nature of clear light leaves us to wander in the different realms of samsaric existence. This is how I understand the concept of the Primordial Buddha. It would be a grave error to conceive of it as an independent and autonomous existence from beginningless time. If we had to accept the idea of an independent creator, the explanations given in the Pramanavartika, the "Compendium of Valid Knowledge" written by Dharmakirti, and in the ninth chapter of the text by Shantideva, which completely refutes the existence per se of all phenomena, would be negated. This, in turn, would refute the notion of the Primordial Buddha. The Buddhist point of view does not accept the validity of affirmations which do not stand up to logical examination. If a sutra describes the Primordial Buddha as an autonomous entity, we must be able to interpret this assertion without taking it literally. We call this type of sutra an "interpretable" sutra. GO BACK TO TOP OF PAGE <a name="bigbang"> Q: Interest im the discoveries of modern astrophysics and the "Big bang" theory reveal both a great fascination in the cosmos and a probing interrogation by members of our generation into their origins, their destiny and the meaning of their existence. The "Big bang" theory has had a significant impact on our way of looking at matter and nature; it has introduced considerable conceptual innovations. The formation of the structures of the universe, which function in interdependence, and which new research continues to reveal, is a seemingly endless source of wonder. Like all spiritual traditions, Buddhism conveys a cosmogonic myth. And yet Buddhism rejects the idea of creation. Why? Most Western scientists think that life and consciousness are a magnificent result of the universe's material evolution, and yet they know neither how nor why matter emerged in such a way as to fulfill the conditions necessary to engender life and consciousness. What they do know is that these conditions are very strict, yet have nevertheless been fulfilled in our universe in an astonishing way. You have a very different point of view on this subject. Would you therefore speak to us about consciousness in its relation to matter and the universe? A: Why is there no creation possible in Buddhism? It has been said that one cannot find living beings at the becoming of the universe for the essential reason that causes have no beginning. If there were a beginning to the universe, there would also have to be a beginning to consciousness. If we accepted a beginning to consciousness, we would also have to accept that its cause has a beginning, a sudden cause which would have instantly produced consciousness; this would lead to a great many other questions. If consciousness had arisen without cause, or from a permanent cause, that cause would have to exist on. a permanent basis, always, or not exist at all, ever. The fact that a phenomenon exists intermittently proves that it depends on causes and conditions. When all the conditions are met, the phenomenon is produced. When those conditions are absent or incomplete, the phenomenon does not appear. As causes have no beginning and stretch back to infinity, the same thing must apply for living beings. Creation is therefore not possible. Let us now consider a particular phenomenon, a glacier for example: it does indeed have a beginning. How was it created? The outside world appears as a result of the acts of sentient beings who use this world, These acts, or karmas, in turn originate in the intentions and motivations of those beings who have not yet taken control of their minds. The "creator of the world," basically, is the mind. In the Sutras, the mind is described as an agent. It is said that consciousness has no beginning, but we must distinguish here between gross consciousness and subtle consciousness. Many gross consciousnesses appear as dependents of the physical aggregates, of the body. This is evident when you consider the different neurons and the functioning of the brain, but just because physical conditions are met does not mean that this is enough to produce a perception. In order for a perception which will have the faculty to reflect and know an object to arise, it must have a consubstantial cause. The fundamental consubstantial cause, of the same substance as its result, will in this case be the subtle consciousness. It is this same consciousness or subtle mind which penetrates the parental cells at the moment of conception. The subtle mind can have no beginning. If it had one, the mind would have to be born of something that is not the mind. According to the Kalacakra Tantra, one would have to return to the particles of space to find the fundamental consubstantial causes of the external physical world as well as of the bodies of sentient beings. Buddhist cosmology establishes the cycle of a universe in the following way: first there is a period of formation, then a period where the universe endures, then another during which it is destroyed, followed by a period of void before the formation of a new universe. During this void, the particles of space subsist, and from these particles the new universe will be formed. It is in these particles of space that we find the fundamental consubstantial cause of the entire physical world. If we wish to describe the formation of the universe and the physical bodies of beings, all we need do is analyse and comprehend the way in which the natural potential of different chemical and other elements constituting that universe was able to take shape from these space particles. It is on the basis of the specific potential of those particles that the structure of this universe and of the bodies of the beings present therein have come about. But from the moment the elements making up the world begin to set off different experiences of suffering and happiness among sentient beings, we must introduce the notion of karma -- that is, positive and negative acts committed and accumulated in the past. It is difficult to determine where the natural expression of the potential of physical elements ends and the effect of karma -- in other words, the result of our past acts -- begins. If you wonder what the relation might be between karma and this external environment formed by natural laws, it is time to explain what karma is. Karma means, first of all, action. We distinguish one type of karma which is of a mental nature, a mental factor of volition or intention. There also exist physical and oral karmas. To understand the connection between these physical, oral, or mental karmas and the material world, we must refer to the tantric texts. The Kalacakra Tantra in particular explains that in our bodies there are to be found, at gross, subtle, and extremely subtle levels, the five elements which make up the substance of the external world. It is therefore in this context, I believe, that we must envision the connection between our physical, oral, and mental karmas, and the external elements.

There are late texts such as those of Dzogchen that talks about an 'all-creating king' (this is not an external being but your OWN Mind), but as Loppon Namdrol/Malcolm puts it: The mind that is the all-creating king, as Norbu Rinpoche makes clear, is the mind that does not recognize itself, and so enters into samsara, creating its own experience of samsara. All conditioned phenomena are a product of ignorance, according to Dzogchen view, and so therefore, everything is not real. The basis of that ignorance is the basis, which is also not established as real. In Dzogchen, everything is unreal, from top to bottom. The basis, in Dzogchen, is described as being "empty not established in any way at all". If the basis is not real, then whatever arises from that basis is not real. In Dzoghen, dependent origination begins from the non-recognition of the state of the basis, when this happens, one enters into grasping self and other, and then the chain of dependent origination begins. ................ "I, the supreme source ["All-Creating King"], am the sole maker, and no other agent exists in the world. The nature of phenomena is created through me ... The very manifestation of existence itself depends on me ... I am self-arising wisdom that has existed from the beginning. I am the supreme source of everything, pure and total consciousness ...'Consciousness' means that self-arising wisdom, the true essence, dominates and clearly perceives all the phenomena of the animate and inanimate universe. This self-arising fundamental substance, not produced by causes and condition, governs all things and gives life to all things ... As my nature is unhindered and all-pervading, it is the celestial abode of wisdom and luminous space: therein abides only self-arising wisdom. As I am the substance whence everything arises, the five great elements, the three worlds [i.e. the worlds of Desire, Form, and Formlessness] and the six classes of beings [hell-denizens, ghosts, animals, humans, Titans, and gods] are only my body, my voice, and my mind: I myself create my own nature ... The root of all phenomena is pure and total consciousness, the source. All that appears is my nature. All that manifests is my magical display. All sounds and words express only my meaning ... "I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that exists. I am the foundation of all that exists. I am the root of existence. I am 'the core', because I contain all phenomena. I am 'the seed', because I give birth to everything. I am 'the cause', because all comes forth from me. I am 'the trunk', because the ramificationsof every event sprout from me. I am 'the foundation', because all abides in me. I am called 'the root', because I am everything [emphasis added]" (Translation of "The All-Creating King", published as The Supreme Source, tr. by Adriano Clemente and Andrew Lukianowicz, Snow Lion Publications, Ithaca, New York 1999, pp. 137-141, 157).

http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebdha068.htm (The Buddha:) If the creator of the world entire They call God, of every being be the Lord Why does he order such misfortune And not create concord? If the creator of the world entire They call God, of every being be the Lord Why prevail deceit, lies and ignorance And he such inequity and injustice create? If the creator of the world entire They call God, of every being be the Lord Then an evil master is he, (O Aritta) Knowing what's right did let wrong prevail!

http://nichirenscoffeehouse.net/dharmajim/DharmaView.html John Reynolds, among western scholars I am familiar with, has written with clarity on this issue: As for the existence of God, of the Creator of heaven and earth, this is the concept central to religion as we know it in the West. Was the Buddha an atheist or an agnostic in relation to the existence of a Supreme Being or God? ... In the Suutras there is found a Buddhist account of Genesis. [This account appears in several sources both in the Mahayana and the Theravada Canons.] In reply to questions from His disciples, the Buddha explained that the humanity found on this planet earth once inhabited another planetary system. Ages ago when the sun of that world went nova and the planet was destroyed in the ensuing solar eruptions, the bulk of its inhabitants, as the result of their arduously practicing the Dharma for ten thousand years, were reborn on one of the higher planes of the Form World or Ruupedhaatu, a plane of existence known as Aabhaasvara or “clear light.” Here they enjoyed inconceivable bliss and felicity for countless aeons. Then, when their great store of past karma came onto maturity, our own solar system and planet earth began to evolve and some among their numbers were reborn on the lower planes of the Ruupadhaatu in the vicinity of the nascent earth. This plane of existence where they found themselves reborn is known as Brahmaaloka. The first of these beings to reawaken and be reborn, upon seeing the solar system evolving below him, exclaimed in his delight, “I am the Creator!” In this way, he came to believe that he was the actual creator of the universe which he saw about him, for he did not remember from whence he came and was born without any parents. But in actuality the manifestation of this universe was due to the collective karma of all in that company and his own individual manifestation, which was a case of apparitional birth, was due to his own great stock of meritorious karma coming into maturation at that time because the requisite secondary conditions were present. ( Self-Liberation Through Seeing With Naked Awareness, translated by John Myrdhin Reynolds, Snow Lion, Ithaca, NY, 2000, pages 97-99.) The principle here, derived from the core insight of Interdependent Transformation, is that all things appear from a causal base. This understanding is extended to the existence of entire universes or world systems. The Dalai Lama makes this same point in his commentary on Shantideva’s Guide to the Bodhisattva’s Way of Life, the Ninth Chapter on Wisdom. Verse 124 speaks directly to this discussion: 124. ... f Creation were dependent upon conditions, the complete collection of those causal circumstances would be the cause, and not Ishvara [Note: Ishvara was a common name for God in ancient India, similar to Yahweh.] If the complete conditions were assembled, Ishvara would be powerless not to create; and if they were absent, there would be no creation. The Dalai Lama’s Comment: If creation and destruction are dependent upon a collection of causal conditions, the totality of those conditions would be the cause, and not a God who is independent of and uninfluenced by events. If the causal conditions were assembled, Ishvara would be powerless not to create the resultant phenomena; and if they were not assembled, those phenomena would not be produced. ( Transcendent Wisdom, the Dalai Lama, translated by B. Alan Wallace, Snow Lion, Ithaca, New York, 1998, page 93.)

Anatta realization may be equated with stream entry (see http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment ). Stream entry realizes anatta and ends the fetter of self view permanently. Stream entry means entering into the noble eightfold path that leads straight to full liberation, an irreversible conveyer belt to Nirvana. It is the first out of four stages culminating in arahantship. Stream entry comes with opening the eye of dharma that perceives the nature of dharma. Stream entrants are assured of arhantship by Buddha in no more than seven lifetimes, and no more births in lower realms. This is why it "leads to" arahantship.

He has experiences with reading minds, recalling past lives and so on. Oh I never said Thusness said he is first bhumi. He could be tenth bhumi for all I know? He didn't say what bhumi he is in.

But anyway, you are free to think whatever you like with regards to thusness attainment. But if you think twofold emptiness are not buddhism then you obviously don't understand buddhism.

No, these are the stages that I and Thusness gone through. They don't represent Buddhism. For example, the first four stages are found in Hinduism, Advaita Vedanta, Neo Advaita and other contemplative paths as well as Buddhist ones. Not all Buddhists go through same stages in same linear way. They are just the particular experiences of our particular path of practice. Stage 5 and 6 however are Buddhism twofold emptiness and so is Buddhist enlightenment.

Realizing luminous clarity aspect of mind essence is not the same as realizing its emptiness. The latter, more rare.

Think what you want man, I know for a fact that Thusness has realized emptiness and has manifested siddhis. I think emptiness realization is rare but there are those who realized emptiness today (not just Thusness).

It's quite a good book for pointing to the I AMness.

Why should I bother with that trouble maker? He's often banned in many places for all the trouble he's caused, lol.

Of course, William or whenever someone says Thusness is a fraud, that is 100% AlwaysOn in his many disguises. Nobody else in the world says such a thing. He will make ridiculous statements about Thusness out of his own blatant ignorance. He even said Thusness is a "fake dzogchen master" when Thusness is neither a teacher nor a dzogchen practitioner, nor claimed to be. LOL

http://www.airdemon.net/blackhole.html

When entering this forum I saw the warning screen that this site is an 'attack site'. Safe Browsing Diagnostic page for thetaobums.com What is the current listing status for thetaobums.com? Site is listed as suspicious - visiting this web site may harm your computer. What happened when Google visited this site? Of the 5 pages we tested on the site over the past 90 days, 0 page(s) resulted in malicious software being downloaded and installed without user consent. The last time Google visited this site was on 2012-08-26, and suspicious content was never found on this site within the past 90 days. This site was hosted on 2 network(s) including AS19066 (WIREDTREE), AS13335 (CLOUDFLARENET). Has this site acted as an intermediary resulting in further distribution of malware? Over the past 90 days, thetaobums.com did not appear to function as an intermediary for the infection of any sites. Has this site hosted malware? No, this site has not hosted malicious software over the past 90 days. How did this happen? In some cases, third parties can add malicious code to legitimate sites, which would cause us to show the warning message. Next steps: Return to the previous page. If you are the owner of this web site, you can request a review of your site using Google Webmaster Tools. More information about the review process is available in Google's Webmaster Help Center.

Sounds like the intensity of luminosity being experienced. This can be experienced dualistically or non-dualistically however. Do you feel like the separate observer has dissolved and fused into everything or is there still a sense of separation?* *(Something I wrote back in 01 Dec 2009, it is the experience of the intensity of luminosity but still dualistic): I wrote: I think 'What is it' is a powerful koan and pointer. Whatever you say isn't It (it's your interpretation of It, which thus is not It), you can only 'know' it by becoming ONE with it. Actually there is not even a becoming one, there is only actually IT, our mind merely projects separation. When we experience Awareness directly without using our thoughts, everything is experienced as having a magical, alive, shimmery, fresh, amazing and blissful quality to it. Life is not not the 'boring and ordinary' as the mind interpretes it, even the most ordinary things (such as eating, walking, etc) just feels awesome. You will be naturally attracted, pulled towards the pristine awareness than to stressful thoughts. The ego will melt in the wonder and majesty of awareness. Awareness will literally blow your mind away. One moment I was just dreaming stressful thoughts, the other moment I 'woke up' and was totally drawn to Awareness itself... there was no compulsion for me to go back to the dream. It's just such a huge contrast. Sometimes it's so blissful that people around me wonder why I'm smiling. But surely I'm not mad... it's mad to not notice Life... hahaha ----------- I was reading this interview by Eckhart Tolle just now and thought to myself "Oh my god, that's exactly the same order as I have experienced it". First I was lost in suffering thoughts, then I had a compulsion to transcend the thoughts as I can't stand them and what I did is precisely the same: asking Who am I? Then everything was dropped off and what remained was just this I AM, this beingness that doesn't have a form but is clearly present. Afterwards I'm just absorbed in this formlessness and next there was just this amazing clarity and experiencing everything as if like a miracle with almost no thoughts, like he said, 90% of the thoughts gone. There's just no more interest in the thought, I'm just basking in wonder of pure awareness, everything ordinary becomes wonderful. I'm only interested in 'feeling' everything than thinking about it. And I too felt that I needed to write it down "in case it leaves me or I lose it", and that is why I wrote it here. The experience isn't equally intense in all moments of my life, but this 'peak experience' is actually not a distant experience but is something accessible at any moment (there's only One) Right Now in the Present Moment, Pure Awareness is the ever-present shining sun that can never be lost. It just becomes temporarily obscured as we become fixated on thoughts, or become distracted... if we just turn the light around we discover this state is our natural state and never leaves. The thought that Eckhart Tolle's intro chapter in The Power of Now was very similar to mine did came to mind on that night as I was writing the post, but it never occured to me that the order it all unfolded was actually similar.