xabir2005

Enlightenment means realising the true nature of reality... the true nature of mind.... There are not just one level of enlightenment, but many. See Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment That link alone covers basically the essential realizations of contemplatives all over the world. So yes, there is indeed a map, and the experiences are common.

Hi Mark Foote, Although I agree that the Pali Suttas are the closest representation to the words of the original appearance of the Buddha, I disagree that Shurangama Sutra is a sutra that is fully faith based rather than verifiable through personal experience. Shurangama Sutra is actually a meditation sutra, it actually provides the method, and tells you how to practice and investigate so that deep experiential wisdom will arise, as well as the many different kinds of meditation experience and pitfalls that one may encounter during the process. It also talks about the importance of samadhi and precepts. That is why many Ch'an/Zen teachers use this text a lot as reference - it is a very helpful and informative guide. It is deeply experiential. They are truly the words of an enlightened master - whether it was the Buddha or not. I can verify the Sutra for myself, because I can see some of my experiences being described there. That said, with regards to the authenticity of Mahayana Sutra, I think those interested to know may find this thread - Are Mahayana Sutras Taught by Buddha? - enlightening. Also with regards to what I said earlier regarding Direct Path vs Gradual Path: those who wish to go through 'direct path' and realize the I AM (and then move on to non-dual and anatta), should read the Shurangama Sutra. Those who wish to focus on Theravadin Vipassana would do well to focus on the Pali Suttas. There is an 'experiential correlation' and technique difference.

The 8 jhanas are not required for cessation. Sotapannas, sakadagamis (stream enterers and once returners) have experienced the fruition, the blip out of reality, the momentary cessation, that marks their entry into the level of stream entry and once returning. They do not have to cultivate 8 jhanas. For example you can attain 0 jhanas and yet still gain stream entry and have a glimpse of Nirvana. It is particularly the experience of Nirodha Samapatti, only attainable by Anagami (non returner) and above, that requires passing through the formless jhanas. However passing through the formless jhanas does not mean you can attain to Nirodha Samapatti: you have to become enlightened to a high degree, that of an Anagami, before you can attain to Nirodha Samapatti. Non aryas and aryas before Anagami will not be able to attain to this state even if they can pass through the 8 jhanas. Also: theoretically, if you are an Arhant who does not cultivate jhanas (this is possible) and does not experience Nirodha Samapatti, nevertheless when you pass away physically, you will still enter into Parinirvana - hence that particular experience of Nirodha Samapatti is not 'necessary' but it is a high form of attainment. The reason I said 'theoretically' is because although the standard texts say you need to pass through the 8 jhanas to reach Nirodha Samapatti, Daniel M. Ingram says "It is said that Nirodha can only be attained by anagamis and arahats (those of 3rd and 4th path) who have some mastery of the formless realms. However, as Bill Hamilton once said, if you are an anagami or arahat, you are bound to run into Nirodha Samapatti eventually." A short note here: you do not have to cultivate jhanas to attain enlightenment. Cultivating (samatha) jhanas simply serve as a strong concentration foundation for insight practice but in itself is not required. Jhanas by itself does not lead to enlightenment. How is Nirodha Samapatti attained? Daniel M. Ingram speaks from experience: ...One attains Nirodha by fusing insight practices and concentration practices in a fairly gentle way that is much less focused and precise than one would do if one wanted to attain Fruition. I find it easiest to attain when reclining, but the first time I attained it I was sitting. There is nothing that can really be said about this attainment, except for mentioning things about the entrance, exit, and the consequences of the attainment. One rises through the samatha jhanas in a very low-key fashion with some weak awareness of their true nature (the Three Characteristics), enters the eighth jhana (neither perception nor yet non-perception), and then emerges from that state. Sometime shortly thereafter, and without warning or very recent premeditation, one may suddenly enter the cessation of perception and feeling. It must be noted that previous interest in attaining this during the preceding days or weeks tends to increase the chances of this attainment showing up. As one gets better at attaining this, one can slip in the inclination (resolution) to attain it after emerging from the 8th jhana and then forget about it before dropping in... ...The texts rightly say that, on the entrance to Nirodha, verbal formations cease first, then bodily sensations, then the whole of mental functioning ceases when the attainment is finally entered. This is traditionally explained as correlating to the first jhana, fourth jhana and then the entrance into Nirodha respectively. However, it may be noticed that in the three moments before cessation of perception sets in (during the complete power failure-like entrance) the verbal formations, bodily formations and mental formations cease in that order also in three consecutive and definable moments, with the whole thing taking about 1/3 of a second. Thus, the texts may have a double meaning, or were misinterpreted by scholars who had not ever attained Nirodha Samapatti. I say this because it is still possible for many bodily and verbal (mental) formations to arise between the eighth jhana the entrance to Nirodha, and thus the traditional interpretation does not quite hold up... ~ http://web.mac.com/danielmingram/iWeb/Daniel%20Ingram%27s%20Dharma%20Blog/The%20Blook/2CECD5EA-6058-4428-8DDD-002856C2E28A.html The process of cessation is interdependent, but when all is ceased, there is no connections left. "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance comes the cessation of concoctions. From the cessation of concoctions comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of mind & body. From the cessation of mind & body comes the cessation of the six sense bases. From the cessation of the six sense bases comes the cessation of contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of vedana. From the cessation of vedana comes the cessation of craving. From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging. From the cessation of clinging comes the cessation of becoming. From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire mass of Dukkha." ~ http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.002.than.html The process of cessation is interdependent, but the state of cessation is not conditioned - I'll give you a simple analogy. A fire is burning on the candle. How do you make the fire stop burning? Does it just happen by itself without conditions? No, you have to do something. You blow it hard. Or you can remove the oil of an oil lamp. Now the fire stops burning. It simply ceased. Is there anything left that is conditioned by anything? No, cessation means cessation, the fire is no longer here, there is no more fire to be conditioned by the 'fuel' to continue burning, or rather there is no more fuel to condition the birth of the fire (if it is an oil lamp). In other words, this is a state unconditioned by the afflictions for continued birth. Going back to the question of Nirodha Samapatti - yes, there is a process of entering Nirodha Samapatti, yet when you enter Nirodha Sampatti, it is a state that is totally ceased and you cannot say that there is any conditions (there is no conditioned arising phenomena) in that state. You cannot say there is a connection in the state of Nirodha Samapatti nor Parinirvana - because what is there to be connected to what? There is literally nothing there in cessation. This is a description about the non-dual, no subject-object nature of reality, but it is not talking about (and not contradictory to) Nirvana/the state of cessation.

Something I wrote on the Actual Freedom and Buddhism document but applies to 3bob's post: As there is ‘interdependent origination’ (with the arising of this, that arises…), there is also ‘interdependent cessation’ (with the cessation of this, that ceases…). And according to Buddha, with the cessation of the 12 links up to the cessation of birth, also comes the cessation of old age and death, and thus plunging into the birthless and deathless sphere/state/non-state where no future samsaric re-births and deaths will occur (as Buddha said, this sphere/state/non-state (Parinirvana) has neither ‘dying’ nor ‘reappearance’). Thus as you can see, the Nirvana (cessation) of Buddhism is also not an Inherently-Existing-Absolute but ‘interdependent’/’dependent’ upon the cessation/absence of various factors due to insight into the actuality of things/the insight into Anatta and Emptiness. For example: the fire on the oil lamp blows out, due to the absence of conditions for the continuation of burning fire – but the absence and cessation of fire is not ‘inherent’ or ‘absolute’. Nevertheless: when the fire has ceased, it is simply known as ‘ceased’, and as such, is a ‘sphere/state/non-state’ no longer conditioned (by the fuel). So likewise, Nirvana is a ‘sphere/state/non-state’ that is unconditioned (by the fuels of afflictions), but at the same time, the process of cessation is set forth like an interdependent chain, and thus Nirvana is not something that inherently existed as an Absolute. It is not some ‘substance’ that is ‘inherently there’ like Hinduism’s Brahman. There is absolutely no such thing as escaping into a Transcendental Self or Absolute through Cessation. Cessation means cessation, period; it does not imply a substance. (p.s. the classic traditional view of the three dharma seals in relation to samsaric and nirvanic phenomenon are as such: samsaric phenomenon are that they are all marked by anicca [sensations change and doesn’t stay the same], dukkha [impermanent sensations cannot be a satisfactory object of clinging] and anatta [sensations do not have inherent self], whereas Nirvana is *not* anicca [not a temporary state subject to passing: no more re-appearance in samsara], *not* dukkha [no dissatisfaction present in cessation], but *still* anatta [empty of inherent self] – none of them would say that Nirvana is Atman [self])

I think that would apply more to Bodhisattvas who have vows to continue appearing in samsara. The Buddha was talking to his Hinayana students in that sutta. He is telling them that an escape from the wheel of samsara is possible. In Mahayana, it is said that Arhantship and the Arhant's nirvana is not final.

Here's the full sutra Notice that the sutta you quoted from is called 'Parinibbana', part of Udana. What is Parinibbana? Parinirvana/Parinibbana is the final Nirvana of an Arhant (one who is liberated). The literal translation of Parinibbana is this: Utter/Final Cessation. When you attain Arhantship, you do not immediately enter Parinibbana. When you realize Arhantship, you only enter 'Nirvana with Remainder' which the Buddha describes as the cessation of suffering and ignorance with the remainder of the senses. An arhant ended suffering, but he is still fully capable of perceiving and functioning with sensory awareness in this world. When does he attain Parinirvana? He attains Parinibbana or Nirvana without Remainder when he passes away from this world. Actually 'attain parinirvana' is not a correct way of phrasing it, it would be more accurate to say that the arhant has nibbana-ed. So, the sutta you are quoting from is describing the state of an Arhant who has physically passed away and no longer returns to samsara. What is it? It is a sphere where an Arhant is no longer born, he is no longer brought into being (reborn), he is no longer conditioned by his afflictions into being born again in the world of suffering. If there were no parinirvana, there would not be an escape from the cycle of samsara. That would not have been possible. But precisely because that an Arhant who ended afflictions no longer takes birth in samsara, there is an escape from the endless cycle of birth and death. And this, my friend, is what the Buddha is talking about. He was not talking about an unborn absolute, he was talking about the end of rebirth.

Agree with your interpretation. 3bob's translation of Shurangama Sutra is a little misleading because it translates the 'wonderful nature' as 'Absolute'.

Yes, I experienced Self, but experiencing Self does not mean you have to deny Anatta. See http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/11/keep-experience-refine-view.html "Keep the experience, Refine the view"

Here's a more accurate translation: http://www.cttbusa.org/shurangama6/shurangama6_15.asp Sutra: The Buddha said, "Ananda, you should know that the wonderful nature is perfect and bright, apart from all names and appearances. Basically there is no world, nor are there any living beings."

Was just reminded of an old post by Thusness in 2005: Just a point to add, (regarding) the pristine awareness "...is formless, as if nothing whatsoever, ungraspable, unborn, undying;..." These characteristics arent attributes peculiar only to pure awareness, all phenomenon existence posses this seemingly unknowable and ungraspable nature. It simply is how reality is where pure awareness has no monopoly at all.

Hi Lucky7Strikes, Thusness told me that after a practitioner has sufficiently de-constructed both the subjective and objective poles, one tends to experience mere happening, mere action, mere experience... your posts suggest you are beginning to experience this... the following links may help. http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=ifcbndKry8UC&printsec=frontcover&dq=albert+low+hakuin&source=bl&ots=ojxxBWay0-&sig=bN8hNW1ttIvbtihV7_4kODQP0cw&hl=en&ei=U7RSTMPQO4-0rAf1ppneAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBQQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false Hakuin on kensho: the four ways of knowing, by Zen Master Albert Low: p.s. regarding the last sentence 'It is just mind only', it is not the mind of Self, it is sunyata. This is also the experience of Maha... The articles Tada and Stainless will also be helpful.

Neti Neti is disassociation, not Anatta. Here's a way to contemplate Anatta: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html There is thinking, no thinker There is hearing, no hearer There is seeing, no seer In thinking, just thoughts In hearing, just sounds In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors. (observe and feel this in direct experience until insight arises)

When the flick, the oil, the air, all these conditions come together... flame manifest. When you turn it off, flame disappears. But can you say that flame originated from somewhere? Did it originate from the fingers, or the flick, or the oil, or the air? No! Flame is a whole and complete end-in-itself. Furthermore: can you say that the flame has 'gone to somewhere' after disappearing? Buddha often uses the analogy of fire to point out that the disappearance/cessation of an arising does not imply that things have 'gone somewhere'. That is - has the flame gone to the east, or the north, or south, or west, or up, or down? Or does it just disappear due to the absence of conditions for continued burning? It just disappears, and such is the nature of Nirvana, you cannot say where the Arhant has gone after physical death. Coming from, and going to, has no place in the understanding of D.O. First of all you need to understand what is the substance of enlightenment. If you follow Shurangama Sutra, then my advice is to practice self-inquiry until you realize your true essence, presence-awareness. It is the self-shining, self-knowing and all-illuminating presence-awareness that shines as the core of existence-being. Then investigate how all phenomena themselves are the substance of presence-awareness... observer-observed dichotomy breaks down. Then further investigate into emptiness. Step by step... like Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment

It is that all those factors such as organs and sense object etc, including a previous moment of mind-consciousness (well a dead corpse cannot hear) come together, that a visual consciousness manifest. Consciousness is distinct from all its conditions but interdependent with them. As Thusness explains in http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/06/bodhidharma-on-awareness-and-conditions.html , Awareness is not like a mirror reflecting but rather a manifestation. Luminosity is an arising luminous manifestation rather than a mirror reflecting. The center here is being replaced with Dependent Origination, the experience however is non-dual. One must learn how to see Appearances as Awareness and all others as conditions. Example, sound is awareness. The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears...are conditions. One should learn to see in this way. All problems arise because we cannot experience Awareness this way.

On the relative level we can say that the appearance is caused, but in terms of luminosity and emptiness (which cannot be separated from the appearance) its uncaused and unconditioned. This moment... this experience... is unconditioned, uncaused, whole and complete, 'end-in-itself' as David Loy puts it. I don't know. Dependent origination does not have to work in a space time limitation. The teaching of Emptiness and D.O. lets you see through the illusory nature of time and locality. For example, see http://twm.co.nz/hologram.html In 1982 a remarkable event took place. At the University of Paris a research team led by physicist Alain Aspect performed what may turn out to be one of the most important experiments of the 20th century. You did not hear about it on the evening news. In fact, unless you are in the habit of reading scientific journals you probably have never even heard Aspect's name, though there are some who believe his discovery may change the face of science. Aspect and his team discovered that under certain circumstances subatomic particles such as electrons are able to instantaneously communicate with each other regardless of the distance separating them. It doesn't matter whether they are 10 feet or 10 billion miles apart. Somehow each particle always seems to know what the other is doing. The problem with this feat is that it violates Einstein's long-held tenet that no communication can travel faster than the speed of light. Since traveling faster than the speed of light is tantamount to breaking the time barrier, this daunting prospect has caused some physicists to try to come up with elaborate ways to explain away Aspect's findings. But it has inspired others to offer even more radical explanations...(See link) Simpo/Longchen wrote: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/search/label/Teleportation The non-solidity of existence This article describes a spiritual insight. It may be quite hard to understand. The things that we experience are registered by all the sense organs. The eye sight registers vision, the ears register sound, the body registers sensations. These perception, sensations and experiences are not happening in some places. They are the experience of the arising of certain conditions. There is no solidity and physicality in the actual experience. What we experienced is not universal and common to all. Here's an example to illustrate that: We know that as human beings, we see in term of colours. Some animals are however colour-blind, thus they see differently from us. But none of us, is really seeing the truth nature directly. The senses of different species of sentient beings experience things differently. So who is seeing the real image of an object? None. Likewise, the various planes of existence are due to different conditions arising. In certain types of meditation, one is said to be able to access these planes of existence. This is because they are not specific locations. They are mental states and are thus non-localised. In these meditations, our consciousness changes and 'aligned' more with these other states or planes of existence. All the planes of existence are simultaneously manifesting, but because our senses are human-based conditioned arisings, we only see the human world and other beings that shared 'similar' resonating arising conditions. But nevertheless, the other planes of existences are not elsewhere in some other places. What we think of as places are really just consciousness and there is no solidity whatsoever. Even our touch sense is just that. The touch sense gives an impression of feeling something that is physical and three-dimensional. But there is really no solid self-existing object there. Instead, it is simply the sensation that gives the impression of physical solidity and form. OK, that all I can think of and write about this topic. I will revise and improve this article where the need arises. For your necessary ponderance. Thank you for reading. These articles are parts of a series of spiritual realisation articles. Remember the butterfly effect - the idea that butterfly wings in Brazil set off a Tornado in Texas? Anyway here's something to ponder: "Chaos theory breaks determinism, breaks boundary, yet does not deny order... a higher order that is too complex to be determined. Initial cause does not result into a predetermined action. From a spiritual perspective, the rigidity of ‘I’ as a fixed pattern order must be broken down for life to be experienced in its full dynamics as wondrous manifestation." ~ Thusness

When we use our concepts to grasp the world and our self... it is inevitable that we hold on to dualistic and inherent thought... because we think that is the sole way of understanding the world (the teaching of D.O. and emptiness is an antidote to that). Even if your parents are enlightened you will still be unenlightened. When enlightenment happens, we realize all concepts are conventions and do not refer to inherent things... like 'red flower' doesn't really mean there is not even a truly existing 'redness' much less a 'red flower' out there, yet we continue describing it this way out of convenience. 'Self' doesn't really mean that there is truly an independent, separate self here. Only through yogic realization do we see the faults of our dualistic mind. Our conditioning and propensities and ignorance do not have an origin - they are beginningless - i.e. dependently originated in infinite regress without beginning, and that is the cause of our continuous falling back into samsaric rebirth.

There are stories of advanced yogis who through deep realization of emptiness is able to walk through walls, teleport, fly, etc. Not exactly necessarily the case for all yogis though. These siddhis are usually the effects of Shamatha/concentration practice, but Thusness did suggest from his experience that these 'non-local' activities can result from very deep realization/insight/clarity. Non-local activities like seeing and hearing without the limitation of distance is possible precisely because of Emptiness. See http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2007/05/different-degrees-of-non-duality.html

Because firewood is firewood, ash is ash! They are each complete and whole itself. For example, you are now thinking of a girl... but 5 minutes ago you are thinking of your mother. Can you say that the thought of your mother is the past of the thought of the girl? No link! They are very different thoughts, and each is an unconditioned whole in itself. Similarly, you don't say that summer is the beginning of autumn, autumn the beginning of winter, or winter the beginning of spring. Winter is winter... complete expression of winter. Summer is summer, etc. Yeah sure, firewood is no longer here. But without firewood, would there be ash now? It's interdependent. That's why Zen Master Thich Nhat Hanh said: In this food, I see clearly the entire universe supporting my existence. ... This food is the gift of the whole universe the earth, the sky, and much hard work.

Shurangama Sutra leads the practitioner to realize the I AM first, before non-dual and anatta (it talks about non-dual and anatta as well, but leads the practitioner to realize the I AM first). It is a direct path teaching. So what Tian Shi said about realizing the 'indestructible mind' is not exactly wrong, just that the I AM is not the final realization. p.s. I appreciate your replies to beoman, I think they are well said.

Not all methods are secret. Some methods are, some are not. Some very effective methods are far from secret. Usually methods that are secret belong to the Esoteric school (密宗). But regardless whether the method is secret - having an experienced teacher is still useful. This is more effective than practicing blindly not knowing where you're heading.

I think Lucky7Strike's posts are great and there's nothing much more for me to add... Dwai clings to non-phenomenal Self, because that is his current experience. It is hard to argue any further because he insists that Consciousness must be a non-phenomenal substratum of phenomena, whereas Buddhism says that if you continue investigating Consciousness you will eventually find that all phenomena are 'conscious'/luminous in essence and empty in nature (One Taste). As such there is no 'The Consciousness', every manifestation is 'a consciousness'. Lucky7Strike has gone through the non-phenomenal Self phase before, but is now having experiential non-dual insight/realization and is now able to appreciate Buddhist teachings better. In light of lucky7strike's post, here's a post by Daniel M. Ingram that hopefully should be more understandable now: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/09/rigpa-and-aggregates.html

Just updated my previous reply.