xabir2005

You are diverting the issue with claims I did not make. First of all you are implying that 'having a schema' by which I take it that you're refering to the stages of realisations, is equivalent to 'neo-Zen/Advaita'. I am simply pointing out that if this is the case, then ALL traditions of Buddhism will be classified under that, since Theravada, Mahayana and Vajrayana including even traditional Zen and Mahamudra talks about stages in their own unique ways. Tolle and Adyashanti is Neo-Advaita because they are teaching about the Atman-Brahman, which is the Vedanta view. As for Adyashanti: strictly speaking he is a qualified Zen teacher who is given permission to teach, he has no Advaita lineage. However having flipped through his book, it is quite clear that as of recent, he is at the Stage 4/Advaita Non Dual level of realisation. Nothing about Anatta or Emptiness. That is why I do agree he can be classified as 'Neo Advaitin' even though his lineage is of Zen. Thusness is not teaching about Atman-Brahman, so 'neo-Advaita' is inaccurate. Neo-Zen? How did you get that idea? He did not claim to be teaching Zen. He did not claim to be teaching anything. In fact he did not claim to be a teacher. Just because you write some articles on Anatta and Emptiness doesn't mean you must be classified as Neo something. Anatta and Emptiness is universal in Buddhism. Lastly, what does 'nondualist' mean to you? If by that you mean realising the union of atman and brahman, obviously Thusness is not a 'nondualist'. You are talking about the *View*. I do agree that the View is beyond bhumis, because it is not a thing, it is simply the insight of the union of luminosity and emptiness, with the emptiness specifically the twofold emptiness of self and phenomena which corresponds to the description of 'stage 5' and 'stage 6', not some 'void'. The union of luminosity and emptiness is already spontaneously perfected from the beginning, as described in Stage 7. It is not a stage, it is what is already always the case, but only out of 'skillful means' that it is being listed that way. But in terms of *path*, there is a long way to go (for most people) to realising fully the View, the Spontaneous Perfection. By the way, even in the most basic Theravada teachings, emptiness is understood not as a stage but as 'spontaneously perfected'. I am not interested in arguing whether this is the same as Dzogchen, but my point here is: Anatta is already always anatta. It is not that you enter a stage where you annihilate the self, rather it is a *Dharma Seal*, something which you must realise Anatta fully as *always already the case* in order to realise Arhatship. So this understanding/view of *always already the case* is present right in the early teachings of Theravada. Yet, people still go through four stages to Arhatship. So, you're saying it isn't true? Initial non-conceptual glimpse of Atman = Buddhahood?

As I wrote to someone in my blog before: "A 'You' flowing with the current is the cause of suffering. Although you see stages as useless jargon, others may find it appropriate. You hold onto an ultimate view, but what I see is a dependently originated view, simply skillful means. Lastly, awakeness is important, not concepts." Thusness has always stressed that his map is a skillful means that can hopefully serve as a guide. Though reality is already 'Spontaneously Perfected' as described in Stage 7, and as such strictly speaking there is no need to go through any steps or stages, but realistically speaking *almost nobody* has achieved full enlightenment in one day, except maybe beings like Padmasambhava who are 'Buddha emanations'. Most will go through the stages of realisations, even in Dzogchen*. As I warned earlier, don't think that you can skip stages to Non-Meditation straight away. One has to honestly ask if he is of the capacity to skip to 10th Bhumi (Non-Meditation) straight away and bypass all other stages? The 7 Stages map has been of help to many - otherwise for example, you could be stuck at a certain stage (say the I AM) thinking you're fully enlightened. By the way the person to whom Thusness wrote his stages to, got enlightened to non-duality simply by reading one line of the Stage 5 description. He wrote this to him as he knew the conditions were present for it to 'work'. It may not work for everybody, but to some it might. This shows how skillful means work. The map was written solely to that person only, as Thusness knew the conditions were present for him to give rise to insight (and he doesn't speak to people unless he perceives that the conditions are there). However I felt it may be of benefit to others as well, that's why I posted to the blog. * http://www.berzinarchives.com/web/en/archives/advanced/dzogchen/basic_points/introduction_dzogchen.html Those Who Progress in Stages and Those for Whom It Happens All at Once There are two types of dzogchen practitioners: those who progress in stages (lam-rim-pa) and those for whom it happens all at once (cig-car-ba). This differentiation regards the manner of proceeding to enlightenment for practitioners once they have realized essence rigpa. In other words, it regards those who have become aryas (‘ phags-pa, highly realized beings) with the attainment of a seeing pathway mind (mthong-lam, path of seeing) and the true stopping of the emotional obscurations. Those who progress in stages proceed through the arya bodhisattva ten bhumi levels of minds (sa, Skt. bhumi), one by one, gradually removing the cognitive obscurations. Those for whom it happens all at once achieve a true stopping of both sets of obscuration all at once with the first realization of essence rigpa. Thus, they become aryas and Buddhas simultaneously. [see: Ridding Oneself of the Two Sets of Obscurations in Sutra and Anuttarayoga According to Nyingma and Sakya.] Although dzogchen texts usually speak more of the second variety, only a tiny fraction of practitioners is of this type. Their elimination of both sets of obscuration with the first realization of essence rigpa is due to the enormous amount of positive force (merit) they have built up with bodhichitta and dzogchen practice in previous lives. That positive force may also enable them to proceed through the stages before achieving a seeing pathway mind more quickly than most. Nevertheless, no one asserts the attainment of enlightenment without the buildup of vast networks of positive force and deep awareness, from intense practice of preliminaries, meditation, and bodhisattva conduct – even if the majority of this has occurred in previous lifetimes. Therefore, when dzogchen texts refer to the recognition of rigpa as the one that cuts off all for complete liberation (chig-chod kun-grol, the panacea for complete liberation), we need to understand this correctly. For those for whom it happens all at once, the first realization of essence rigpa is sufficient for cutting all obscurations for the complete attainment of enlightenment. This does not mean, however, that realization of rigpa is sufficient by itself for attaining enlightenment, without need for any preliminaries, such as bodhichitta or strengthening the two enlightenment-building networks, as the causes for achieving that realization.

Btw Stage 1 (I AMness) is also about 'distinguish clarity and conceptual mind'. If you experienced the I AM, it is non-conceptual, undeniable clarity, beyond conceptual thoughts, no intermediary. But at this point, you do not understand Non Dual (oneness of Absolute and Relative), as well as Anatta, Emptiness, Dependent Origination. Spiritual path is not as simple as you say Having an initial glimpse such as the I AM is not the end of the path.

Mahamudra, considered on par with Dzogchen as another 'highest teachings', taught the four yogas/stages. Furthermore: Mahayana and Vajrayana understands there are 10 bodhisattva bhumis. Theravada, the most original/early Buddhist teachings, understands there are 4 stages to Arhatship. Even the traditional Zen masters have the 5 Ranks of Tozan, 10 Ox Herding pictures, and more to map the stages of enlightenment. Is that neo-Buddhist? Also how is Thusness's writings about Advaita? If you say Stage 1 to 4 is Advaita that is understandable. But Stage 5 to 7 is Buddhist. If you think Advaita teaches Anatta and Inter-Dependent Origination instead of Atman (Self) - Brahman (The Ultimate Source/God), you probably don't know the difference between Advaita and Buddhism well enough.

Hi SereneBlue, Just want to make some points. It is not that things cannot be explained logically or step-by-step. It can, and that is what Buddha's teachings are all about. Even though Buddha's insights on the nature of reality and liberation is not derived through conceptual analysis, logic, etc.. all his teachings are skillful means to lead a practitioner to the right understanding and the path towards the direct experience of liberation. Contemplating on Dependent Origination is the means to realise emptiness and see through the sense of self and solidity, which leads to/is the direct experience of what liberation is. Just to see through the sense of self and individuality one begins to experience thoughts in a not so solid manner (rather than grasping onto the stories like they are 'me' or 'mine', they are experienced like wind passing, nothing solid), and just that alone one begins to feel more freedom and clarity and expansion. But liberation goes further than that. There are many levels of liberation that is described. Some sees "I AM" as liberation. Some sees non-dual and oneness as liberation. But in Buddhism one must factor in emptiness as well and this leads to an even deeper level of freedom, so liberation is in the direct insight and experience of the union of luminosity and emptiness. Through insight practices, we will experience what freedom is, not logically or conceptually.. but through cycles after cycles of deep contemplation, investigation and practice, one clearly sees 'liberation' as it is. In direct experience.. if you see through the clinging to a self, to something solid... you will feel the sensation, the expansion, the openness, the non-solidity, the non-self, the dancing sensations, the aliveness, the obviousness, of everything. It is not deriving anything logically... it is the direct experience of what liberation is. In Buddhism, all practices are centered on luminosity and emptiness, be it Vipassana, or Dzogchen, or any systems of insight practices: it is the same in this regard. They all lead to the direct experience of liberation and direct realisation of the nature of reality. Even these teachings are practices are skillful means, but they are necessary. The Buddha clearly saw the cause of suffering and prescribed the right medicine.

D.O. is Stage 6 Stage 1~2: I AM/Eternal Witness Stage 3: Entering Nothingness (like a samadhi of oblivion to dissolve self) Stage 4: Non Dual, One Mind Stage 5: Anatta & No Mind Stage 6: Emptiness (Dependent Origination) Stage 7: Spontaneous Perfection and Non-Meditation Some people think they are at Stage 7 without going through the previous insights. They think they can 'skip stage', but actually they are really not there yet. Stage 7 requires deep insight of anatta and D.O. for true effortlessness and non-meditation to arise, otherwise tendencies to view 'inherently' and 'dualistically' will continue to arise, there will not be true effortlessness. In Mahamudra, there are four yogas which are stages like the bodhisattva bhumis (One-Pointedness, Simplicity, One Taste and Non-Meditation), and furthermore there are three degrees of each of the yogas, e.g. there is lower, medium and higher Non-Meditation, the highest of which is equivalent to Buddhahood, also known as anuttarasamyaksambodhi, also known as "Unexcelled perfect enlightenment". But you can't just skip from 'one pointendess' to 'non-meditation' (unless you are some beings like Padmasambhava, idk). When Anatta and Emptiness is seen everywhere, aka 'Spontaneous Perfection', one enters into effortlessness non-meditation. His phase 7 is the effortlessness due to the above reason, however it may be different from the Mahamudra 4 Yogas.

I've talked to Thusness about this... he commented that even after glimpses of non-dual and anatta, one may be unable to overcome tendencies especially for one that has engaged in too much concepts in the past. Because these tendencies are strong, it manifest in your disheartened-ness. Hence at this junction, it is important to boldly step out of the mental loop without further thought in the correct way and most direct manner. At this point, it is like the Zen master twisting the nose of the student ( http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/05/words-of-three-zen-masters-realization.html ), it is about Tada, the luminosity and suchness of things ( http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2010/04/tada.html ) - a direct pointing to the "vivid aliveness", i.e. the pain of the nose. One must know when to drop concepts when it is time and when to pick it up again. Otherwise one might have to face a period of confusion and suffering for a while.

He said, "To practice the Way singleheartedly is, in itself, enlightenment. There is no gap between practice and enlightenment or zazen and daily life"

Hi, I wrote my own experiences on this over a year ago. Which is actually similar to what Thusness said (6:49 PM) An Eternal Now: the more the self disappears the more everything manifest its clearness (6:50 PM) An Eternal Now: and naturalness (6:51 PM) An Eternal Now: and spaciousness... but spaciousness is not like void.. but the more spacious the more clear everything is.. (6:56 PM) An Eternal Now: today im surprisingly awake even though i only slept 2 hours

Great post. Thusness and I thinks you have expressed it well. This is true non-duality p.s. here's a poem by Thusness years back, it's about the intensity of direct non-dual experience: Division of subject and object is merely an assumption. Thus someone giving up and something to be given up is an illusion. When self becomes more and more transparent, Likewise phenomena become more and more luminous. In thorough transparency all happening are pristinely and vividly clear. Obviousness throughout, aliveness everywhere! In thorough transparency, both phenomena and awareness cannot be found, just vivid happening that is 'obviousness throughout and aliveness everywhere'

Monotheistic involves God. In Buddhism, no God. No seer does not mean you cannot see. No doer does not mean you cannot act. http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/03/on-anatta-emptiness-and-spontaneous.html The 2 stanzas below are pivotal in leading me to the direct experience of no-self. Although they appear to convey the same stuff about anatta, meditating on these 2 stanzas can yield 2 very different experiential insights -- one on the emptiness aspect and the other, the non-dual luminosity aspect. The insights that arise from these experiences are very illuminating as they contradict so much our ordinary understanding of what awareness is. # There is thinking, no thinker There is hearing, no hearer There is seeing, no seer # In thinking, just thoughts In hearing, just sounds In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors. Great compassion. Vows to attain Buddhahood and save sentient beings. If you do not have these vows, you will not return, as there is no more conditions for birth, you simply pari-nirvana. The Buddha said that any teaching that teaches the eightfold path will result in enlightened beings. Which means if the teaching does teach eightfold path in full, then it is a true teaching that leads to liberation. Furthermore, The Buddha says that the four foundations of mindfulness form "the only way that leads to the attainment of purity, to the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, to the end of pain and grief, to the entering upon the right path and the realization of Nibbana." [53] They are called "the only way" (ekayano maggo), not for the purpose of setting forth a narrow dogmatism, but to indicate that the attainment of liberation can only issue from the penetrating contemplation of the field of experience undertaken in the practice of right mindfulness. What falling out? How does it make you throw up? No, this is not the bliss I am talking about. True bliss is only experienced during the absence of subject and object separation. If it is not a thing, then what is it? No not really. If you investigate experience by affirming the experience as it is, in the way the Buddha teaches: in the seen there is just the seen, in the heard there is just the heard, in the cognized there is just the cognized, you will discover there is no you in terms of that, and there is no you there, you will not be able to locate yourself in the world of this nor that, and that ends suffering. ( http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2008/01/ajahn-amaro-on-non-duality-and.html ) You will see that the whole sense-field/all sensations are happening on its own, and is aware where they are, and the division of 'observer inside' and 'object being observed', 'controller' and 'being controlled' is totally conceptual. As Daniel M. Ingram puts it: Very simply and from a basic, down-to-earth, and simple point of view, these sensations now are aware where they are, and the sensations towards the apparent center that seem to be perceiving those sensations are also just aware where they are. Further, these are all transient, causal, happening on their own, natural, and ordinary. Perceiving these simple truths directly again and again reveals the completeness of those assertions at the level of natural perception, and thus what was always true becomes obvious. In this way, this is it. The language of ultimate reality can easily create a seeming divide between the obvious here and now and some ideal of something profound. However, it is actually something very straightforward about what is happening in ordinary, sensate reality that reveals what has been called ultimate reality and other names, and it is true that seeing this ordinary, straightforward thing about our current sensate reality is profound in its way, but one should be careful not to get to far out there with ideals about Reality and ultimate reality, and instead ground down in the simplicity of ordinary investigation of whatever happens, even esoteric things like altered states and visions, etc., all of which are just sensations manifesting now, simple, transient, aware where they are, causal, natural, etc. In short, as others have said: practice, but practice perceiving this ordinary sensate world with great clarity, precision and inclusiveness so that these simple truths become even more directly obvious than they already are and lock in as your baseline level of perception.

I agree Buddha is a Teacher. I'm not sure what you mean by Realm Lord. However, if I remember correctly, Shakyamuni Buddha is 'in charge' of the 3000 world systems while he was the Buddha. Other worlds beyond that may have other Buddhas, but Shakyamuni is the current Buddha of these worlds, until the next Buddha appears which is Maitreya Buddha. What do you mean by 'Healer'? What is the Stage 5 you're talking about? What are the previous stages?

I see.. thanks

Ah interesting... I've always wondered why Buddhas have to return as a Bodhisattva. Like why does Avalokitesvara who is supposedly an ancient Buddha have to return as a Bodhisattva, why can't he just return as a Buddha. I think what you said made sense. You mentioned you have explained it before... perhaps you can share?

Interesting.. thanks for explaining.

Yes. In Vipassana the View and method of contemplation is intrinsically linked. Samatha Jhanas, or blissful states of absorptions, cannot lead to liberation. As a teacher once said, to be true liberation, you must be liberated in both hell and heaven. It is not dependent on any states. For liberation, it is a matter of awakening insights into the nature of experience. It is to contemplate on the View. Someone by the name 'upekkha' at NewBuddhist forum wrote this (she was awakened after contemplating as such, according to her indirect indications she is now either Sakadagami or Anagami):

Taking your current experience and especially your current view to interprete the sutra is not always reliable. The problem is that experience and views can and do evolve, and it is often the case that people use eternalist or nihilist (both extremes countered and rejected by Buddha many many times) views to interprete the sutras. Hence the advise by teachers to students to always "refine the view", while at the same time "keep the experience" because this is not about a denial of your experience, but a refining of views. For example 'No Witness' does not deny the experience of Witnessing, 'No Phenomena' does not deny the experience of Phenomena, it just denies their being independent, self-existing, permanent and separate entities. A related post I wrote to someone at the I AM stage last year would be Keep the experience, Refine the view As for how experience evolves, Thusness/PasserBy's Seven Stages of Enlightenment is one way to explain the evolution of insights.

All existence is dissatisfactory if clung to: they arise and pass away. How can something that arise and pass away be ultimately satisfactory? It cannot. You cannot find happiness in what is ultimately unsatisfactory. Even a birth in the deva realm is unsatisfactory since there is death! Therefore, Garab Dorje Rinpoche said that, "Even with 5 Wisdoms, the Buddha was unable to find happiness in Samsara." The Buddha said, “Just as a tiny bit of faeces has a bad smell, so I do not recommend even a tiny bit of existence, not even for so long as a fingersnap”. (AN 1, 18) However realising Nirvana, the end of suffering, clinging, and ignorance, that is peace, that is the highest bliss. That is ultimately the only 'place' (not a place) that is free of sufferings, the only place you can find true happiness. With wisdom, we see the empty nature of phenomena, which ends all clinging.

From my understanding, if an arhat dies, there is no more experience (birth). Until the Buddhas 'wake' them up to continue their path to Buddhahood. An enlightened bodhisattva however will keep coming back to lead other beings to liberation and continue their practice to Buddhahood. A Buddha will also return to help other beings.

Thusness: On Anatta (No-Self), Emptiness, Maha and Ordinariness, and Spontaneous Perfection (highly recommend to read the whole article entirely) The 2 stanzas below are pivotal in leading me to the direct experience of no-self. Although they appear to convey the same stuff about anatta, meditating on these 2 stanzas can yield 2 very different experiential insights -- one on the emptiness aspect and the other, the non-dual luminosity aspect. The insights that arise from these experiences are very illuminating as they contradict so much our ordinary understanding of what awareness is. # There is thinking, no thinker There is hearing, no hearer There is seeing, no seer # In thinking, just thoughts In hearing, just sounds In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors. ................... Mahasi Sayadaw teacher Daniel M. Ingram (Arhat): http://www.interactivebuddha.com/arahats.shtml # Arahatship designates an understanding that has the following characteristics: 1. The arahat has seen through the sense that there is a continuous, separate, or special controller, doer, observer, or centerpoint that is "who they are" in a very direct perceptual way that is not merely an intellectual or conceptual understanding. 2. They know the sensations that seemed to imply these to be just more sensations arising and vanishing according to conditions as they always have been. 3. This is not something they have to work to maintain, but instead is something that has stopped. 4. The arahat knows in real time and directly what is meant by such phrases and concepts as: 1. "in the thinking is only the thought, in the seeing is only the seen, etc." 2. intrinsic luminosity 3. the emptiness of phenomena 4. that Nibbana is found in Samsara 5. and a whole host of other poetic metaphors and attempts as description.

Oh by the way, I checked the source of your quote. The translation is done in the 19th century by someone who wants to translate the Suttas into a way that is appealing to Christians, using Christian terms like 'salvation' and so on. It is from a book called 'Buddha, The Gospel' by Paul Carus published in 1894. The translation is of pretty bad quality though, I have read through some of them before, and there is an obvious contrast with the good translations. There are also false views such as 'The extinction of self is salvation; the annihilation of self is the condition of enlightenment; the blotting out of self is Nirvana.' - this is antithesis to the Suttas which clearly taught that the annihilation of a self is the wrong view since it implies there is a 'self' in the first place. The author is also clearly confusing Advaita with Buddhism in his writings. You're better off relying on Pali translations available at AccessToInsight as they are done by people with better credentials and mastery of Pali language and Dhamma training.

Buddha is pointing to the experience of cessation (Nirvana) by realising the non-dual and empty nature of reality. You are mistaking it as a formless unchanging metaphysical essence. These are not the same thing.

Again, bad translation. If you want to quote from Pali Suttas, my advise is always rely on reliable translations from AccessToInsight (which is generally reliable). Here's a more accurate version: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/ud/ud.8.01.than.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time the Blessed One was instructing urging, rousing, and encouraging the monks with Dhamma-talk concerned with Unbinding. The monks — receptive, attentive, focusing their entire awareness, lending ear — listened to the Dhamma. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: There is that dimension where there is neither earth, nor water, nor fire, nor wind; neither dimension of the infinitude of space, nor dimension of the infinitude of consciousness, nor dimension of nothingness, nor dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; neither this world, nor the next world, nor sun, nor moon. And there, I say, there is neither coming, nor going, nor staying; neither passing away nor arising: unestablished, unevolving, without support (mental object). [1] This, just this, is the end of stress. It did not say 'it is without form and without change' or 'it is the eternal'. It must not be misunderstood as a metaphysical essence. Here's how Ajahn Amaro explains this experience: http://www.thebuddhadharma.com/issues/2003/winter/ajahnamaro.html And the Buddha replied, "It is not possible to reach the end of the world by walking, but I also tell you that unless you reach the end of the world, you will not reach the end of suffering." Rohitassa was a bit puzzled and said, "Please explain this to me, Venerable Sir." The Buddha replied, "In this very fathom-long body is the world, the origin of the world, the cessation of the world, and the way leading to the cessation of the world" (Anguttara Nikaya 4.45, Samyutta Nikaya 2.26). In that instance the Buddha used the same exact formulation as in the Four Noble Truths. The world, or loka, means the world of our experience. That's how the Buddha almost always uses the term "the world." He's referring to the world as we experience it. This includes only sight, sound, smell, taste, touch, thought, emotion and feeling. That's it. That's what "the world" is—my world, your world. It's not the abstracted, geographical planet, universe-type world. It's the direct experience of the planet, the people and the cosmos. Here is the origin of the world, the cessation of the world and the way leading to the cessation of the world. He said that as long as we create "me and my experience"—"me in here" and "the world out there"—we're stuck in the world of subject and object. Then there is dukkha. And the way leading to the cessation of that duality is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. Geographically, it is impossible to journey to the end of the world. Only when we come to the cessation of the world, which literally means the cessation of its otherness or thingness, will we reach the end of dukkha, unsatisfactoriness. When we stop creating sense objects as absolute realities and stop seeing thoughts and feelings as solid things, there is cessation. To see that the world is within our minds is one way of working with these principles. The whole universe is embraced when we realize that it's happening within our minds. And in that moment when we recognize that it all happens here, it ceases. Its thingness ceases. Its otherness ceases. Its substantiality ceases. This is just one way of talking and thinking about it. But I find this brings us much closer to the truth, because in that respect, it's held in check. It's known. But there's also the quality of its emptiness. Its insubstantiality is known. We're not imputing solidity to it, a reality that it doesn't possess. We're just looking directly at the world, knowing it fully and completely. So, what happens when the world ceases? I remember one time Ajahn Sumedho was giving a talk about this same subject. He said, "Now I'm going to make the world completely disappear. I'm going to make the world come to an end." He just sat there and said, "Okay, are you ready? The world just ended. Do you want me to bring it back into being again? Okay, welcome back." Nothing was apparent from the outside. It all happens internally. When we stop creating the world, we stop creating each other. We stop imputing the sense of solidity that creates a sense of separation. Yet we do not shut off the senses in any way. Actually, we shed the veneer, the films of confusion, of opinion, of judgment, of our conditioning, so that we can see the way things really are. At that moment, dukkha ceases. There is knowing. There is liberation and freedom. There is no dukkha.

Yes Glad to see you're back!