xabir2005

The realisation of non-duality is not a sensation, it is the realisation of how awareness/all sensations by nature has never been separated into subject and object division. Realising this non-duality is enough to stop the 'seeking for sensation' because all seeking is the result of feeling separate. Rather in hearing the music there is only just the music hearing itself, there is no one there to accept or reject it. And this is realised to be always already the case and not an altered state of consciousness or a stage of merging with everything. This realisation itself is not the final realisation but it is important to removing the first bond, the bond of duality, as I wrote... However I do agree with what you said regarding D.O. as a subtler realisation free from the notion of a transcendent source. It should also be noted that this non-duality is already the case, and does not require 'actualization' in the sense of reaching a stage of experience or gaining something we don't already possess, but rather the realisation of what is already the case... non-dual luminosity is already spontaneously perfected, or as Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche says: The awareness arising at the first sudden instant (of sense contact) is indeed that pure presence which arises without correction (or modification) and which is uncreated (by causes). This very condition of existence which transcends the limitations of both subject and object is the authentic self-originated primal awareness of pure presence. ... The nature of the mind is from the very beginning empty and without a self. Having nothing concrete about it, its aspect which is luminous clarity is unobstructed (and uninterrupted), like the moon reflected on the water. This is that ultimate primal awareness of pure presence within which there is no duality of emptiness and clarity. We should understand that this primal awareness is naturally and spontaneously self-perfected. (The Cycle of Day and Night)

Just to add... the realisation of non-dual luminosity will itself overcome an important bond, the bond of 'inside and outside', 'perceiver and perceived'. However this is not the only bond to be overcome. As I wrote some months back in my Buddhist forum: 1. The bond of Subject-Object duality: This bond prevents us from the direct experience of anything. It is the sense of a separate self, that is "in here" experiencing something "out there". When hearing the music, it feels that I am an inner experiencer and the music is outside. When non-dual reality is realised, there is no inner-outer division, no me in here and music out there. Just the ISness of the music. You don't hear the music, the music hears. You don't see the scenery, the scenery sees. This is the beginning of seeing through the sense of a separate self, yet there can still be strong grasping on an ultimate unchanging non-dual Self/Absolute. 2. The bond of Inherency: There are two levels to the bond of inherency: the bond of seeing self as inherent, and the bond of seeing dharmas as inherent. Insight into anatta/no-self removes the self-bond, insight into dependent origination of all dharmas removes the bond of seeing dharmas as inherent. To remove the bond of non-inherency, apart from practicing naked awareness we need to establish right views.

Agreed and well said I realised my definition is not thorough. Buddha-nature is neither awareness nor emptiness. It is defined as the union of luminosity/awareness and emptiness. There must equally be the realisation of non-dual luminosity (note: not recognition or merely experience) as there must be the realisation of emptiness. Without either one falls into eternalism or nihilism.

Wiki: Luminous mind (also, "brightly shining mind," "brightly shining citta") (Pali, pabhassara citta) is a term attributed to the Buddha in the Nikayas. The mind (citta) is said to be "luminous" whether or not it is tainted by mental defilements.[1] ----- The luminosity concerns the natural clarity/knowingness of mind which manifests as our sensate experiences. The three aspects in Dzogchen: emptiness (essence), luminosity (awareness), and energy (manifestation) are inseparable but can be distinguished. However I should mention also, recognising the luminosity of mind does not mean one realises its emptiness immediately nor realise its non-duality with all phenomena. This becomes like the I AM experience. In Mahamudra there are four yogas. In short, the first yoga of one pointedness relates to the recognition of the luminuous nature of mind. The second yoga relates to the realisation of emptiness (and the beginning of the path of seeing/first bhumi). The third yoga relates to the realisation of the non-duality of subject and object, that luminosity is present in all experiences without division. Then the yoga of non meditation is the realisation that makes meditation a natural state than something to maintain by effort or strive towards. For a longer, one~two page explanation by Traleg Rinpoche, see http://books.google.com.sg/books?id=OVSsM-...;q=&f=false . There's an advice I like from Namdrol: You need to just sit and relax. Take a proper posture. Expell the stale air. Do Guru yoga. Then relax. As one's mind slowly subsides, a vivid, clear and energetic radiance will emerge. This is not rigpa itself, but is instead the radiance aspect of awareness. Relaxing in this is the essence of tregchod. If it does not arise-- it doesn't matter-- it is there anyway. If it arises, it doesn't matter, since there is nothing one can do to cause it to arise, nor will it ever subside. But it is revealed when one is sufficiently relaxed. If thoughts occur, it doesn't matter, since thoughts do not exist outside of this state. If there are no thoughts, it doesn't matter, since this radiance is not product of stillness, no more than the lustre of clear water is a product of the settling out of detritus. When one can "see" the radiance of awareness even in the midst of the chaos of concepts, then one's tregchod is moving ahead. Otherwise, just relax and integrate into your primordial state. A few words of advice on tregchod written by a so called "dzogchen pa" named Namdrol. There's a summary by Thusness in my forum though I am not sure if he would like it put here (he didn't seem to think it was appropriate when I posted it in my blog): When there is simply a pure sense of existence; When awareness appears mirror like; When sensations become pristine clear and bright; This is luminosity. When all arising appear disconnected; When appearance springs without a center; When phenomena appears to be on their own without controller; This is no doer-ship. When subject/object division is seen as illusion; When there is clarity that no one is behind thoughts; When there is only scenery, sounds, thoughts and so forth; This is anatta. When phenomena appears pristinely crystal; When there is merely one seamless experience; When all is seen as Presence; This is non-dual Presence. When we feel fully the unfindability and unlocatability of phenomena; When all experiences are seen as ungraspable; When all mind boundaries of in/out, there/here, now/then dissolve; This is Emptiness. When interconnectedness of everything is wholly felt; When arising appears great, effortless and wonderful; When presence feels universe; This is Maha. When arising is not caged in who, where and when; When all phenomena appear spontaneous and effortless; When everything appears right every where, every when; This is spontaneous perfection. Seeing these as the ground of all experiences; always and already so; This is wisdom. Experiencing the ground in whatever arises; This is practice. Here's another explanation on Luminosity by Kalu Rinpoche ( http://www.iol.ie/~taeger/mahamud/mahamud.html ): Another aspect of the nature of mind is its luminosity. Normally we think of this term in a visual sense. We think of a luminous body like the sun or the moon which shines and gives off light. However, this is merely a metaphor to give us some idea of what is being hinted at. To say that the mind is luminous in nature is analogous to saying that space is illuminated. For example, we can have empty space and there might be no illumination; then the space would be obscured. There is space, but no ability to see clearly; there is no direct experience possible in complete darkness. Just as there is clear vision in illuminated space, so in the same way, while mind is essentially empty, it exhibits the potential to know, which is its luminosity. This is not a visual experience per se, but the ability of mind to know, perceive and experience.

I agree with what you said and like what you said about the sub particles, even they dependently originate without a substance Actually D.O. is the only understanding that is beyond the extremes of nihilism and eternalism. It is just some of the interpretations of emptiness (either intrinsic or extrinsic) we need to be careful about.

No, I believed Namdrol has stated that ChNNR does not hold onto the rangtong perspective, nor shentong. He further explained how rantong and shentong are coarse views and extremes, one nihilism, the other eternalism. He then further states that ChNNR's view not different from Prasanga Madhyamaka except that the view derived from Prasanga Madhyamaka is by analysis while the view derived by Dzogchen is not. Nevertheless philosophically, they are the same, free of extremes. You may want to clarify with him when e-sangha returns.

Depending on what you mean by self inquiry, if you are talking about Advaitic sense a la Ramana Maharshi, then self inquiry easily leads to the I AM realisation than to the No-Self realisation. The No-Self realisation is gained through contemplating vipassanically on these verses.... # There is thinking, no thinker There is hearing, no hearer There is seeing, no seer # In thinking, just thoughts In hearing, just sounds In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors. Or simply the Bahiya Sutta. This is not to say that self inquiry in the vedantic sense is not precious, because it can give a powerful realisation of one's luminous nature of mind (as pure aliveness, consciousness), a powerful conviction that you are not a machine, or a corpse or a lifeless body -- the nature of mind is luminous, clear, alive as pure presence, imbued with clear knowingness. My friend Thusness has instructed a number of friends on self inquiry in the Vedantic sense, knowing that it will not lead all the way but can be an important tool. However its empty (of self and inherent existence) nature will be evasive until further insights but it is nevertheless it can still serve as an important foundation or condition for further insights (though those who follow the traditional Mahasi Sayadaw Theravadin Vipassana path like Daniel Ingram may not emphasize this stage). It is this experience of the pure I AMness that becomes mistaken as an Atman or Eternal Witness. Great. I have to add on something... Rangtong seems to skew towards emptiness to the point of nihilism. Shentong seems to skew towards luminosity to the point of eternalism. When one realises the union of luminosity and emptiness, one goes beyond extremes. Luminosity is the very magical and dream-like display of appearances... vivid and clear but empty. Focus on the luminosity but also realise it's empty, dependently originated, and impermanent nature.

Here's my POV and correct me if you don't understand it the same way: Luminosity is present even in the ignorant state, just temporarily obscured. The Buddha: "Luminous, monks, is the mind.[1] And it is defiled by incoming defilements." {I,v,9} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements." {I,v,10} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. The uninstructed run-of-the-mill person doesn't discern that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person -- there is no development of the mind." {I,vi,1} "Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones discerns that as it actually is present, which is why I tell you that -- for the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- there is development of the mind." {I,vi,2} And this 'mind' is also totally interdependently originated... it is non permanent and non independent but at the same time it is not manufactured by anything (including practice, insight, experience, etc), it is what is spontaneously perfected and manifesting every moment as everything we experience. Nevertheless the luminosity cannot be separated from the phenomena which is interdependently originated, hence luminosity is empty of any inherent existence. This is not contradictory but is simply the nature of everything. Clear knowing is naturally present whether there is ignorance. Even in the unenlightened state, there is still seeing, smelling, hearing.... that is all the display of luminosity or clear knowing, though the display is dependently originated, never has luminosity been lost for a moment. Luminosity isn't lost at any moment, just defiled by ignorance. Even ignorance is actually a display of luminosity though grasped at the wrong way. (remember Thrangu Rinpoche said something like, ignorance is not darkness, rather it means the luminosity is too bright and one fails to see its emptiness) So... though non-dual luminosity is naturally present there is of course a difference between wisdom and ignorance, the same luminosity presenting as the five skandhas perceived in its true nature is wisdom, the same luminosity presenting as five skandhas perceived through grasping at being a self, grasping at being and nonbeing, is ignorance, and manifests as dualistic/samsaric consciousness (instead of nondual wisdom). Wisdom and ignorance are also all dependently originated.

Closer, but not quite there yet. What you described is the Thusness Stage 4 understanding, or Level 2 of the 3 levels of understanding Non Dual: (Thusness/PasserBy): Yes but what said can still have the following scenario: 1. There is an Awareness reflecting thoughts and manifestation. 2. Thoughts and manifestation are required for the mirror to see itself. 3. Thoughts and manifestation have always been the mirror In 3 not even a quantum line can be drawn from whatever arises; whatever that appears to come and goes is the Awareness itself. There is no Awareness other than that. We should use the teachings of Anatta (no-self), DO (dependent origination) and Emptiness to see the 'forms' of awareness.

Buddhism does not deny intelligence. So E&DO is not unintelligent. But even intelligence and consciousness dependently originates. In Buddhism the universe does not have a strictly material cause but interdependently originates with consciousness and karma. As Namdrol says: ...there are no merely five principles that govern empirical reality in Buddhist theory, but rather six: solids, liquids, gases, heat, dimensionality, and consciousness. Even if matter composed of the first five are disturbed, the presence of consciousness (es) will always ensure the flow of time. Why? because mind is, in Buddhist theory, a species of dravya, substance. It is a phenomena, and hence time will be dependent on it for as there are consciousnesses.... In Buddhism, there is no monotheistic/judaistic intelligent sole creator God sitting up in heaven designing things below, but rather, consciousness and intelligent beings is always making conditions and karma which affects what we call the universe. However consciousness/intelligence is not reified as an all powerful controlling entity. There is no first cause in Buddhism, just endless flow of dependent origination. Consciousness does not 'create' the universe, but the universe is interdependent with consciousness-es. (Not one supreme intelligence/consciousness or God, but endless mindstreams of consciousness and intelligence) Consciousness is not an all powerful creator because consciousness also dependently originates, as Dalai Lama says: Mind came into existence because of its own cause. To deny that the origination of mind is dependent on a cause, or to say that it is a designation given as a means of recognizing the nature of mind aggregates, is not correct. With our superficial observance, mind, which has concrete experience and clear cognizance as its nature, appears to be a powerful, independent, subjective, completely ruling entity. However, deeper analysis will reveal that this mind, possessing as it does the function of experience and cognizance, is not a self-created entity but Is dependent on other factors for its existence. Hence it depends on something other than itself. This non-independent quality of the mind substance is its true nature which in turn is the ultimate reality of the self. So in Buddhism our nature as luminous clarity, vitality, intelligence aspect is not denied and is experienced in full, but its empty (dependent origination) essence is also understood. In Dzogchen it's explained as the three aspects of Essence (emptiness), Nature (luminosity), Energy (manifestation) -- these three are not separate but are inseparable and are corresponded with the three bodies of Buddha: Dharmakaya, Sambhogakaya, Nirmanakaya. These three bodies are not (from the Dzogchen way) to be achieved by efforting but is something that is already spontaneously perfected as our very nature/the nature of universe/the nature of all experiences. The luminosity is not other than the very magical display (manifestation, energy) itself, empty, illusion-like but not an illusion, dependently originated, yet vivid and clear and aware. So does our will and ability to make our lives and others' lives better and so on -- they too are not denied but their aware-empty nature, dependently originated nature, is understood.

Wonderful I think his name is pronounced as 'Nam-kai-nor-bu'

Hi, with due respect to Nisargadatta and Dwai I have to say that as much as people like to believe, the view and realisation is actually different so I have to agree with what Vajrahridaya said above. Dzogchen actually has a large host of practices which are all useful, though the only 'must' is guru yoga or remaining in rigpa. And though the direct introduction can itself give some people a glimpse or realisation (you have to be of high capacity or ready for it) of rigpa, as Namdrol said there are practices 'Dzogchen is always non-gradual: for example, if the student does not "get it", as a reuslt of receiving direct introduction he or she can use the methods of semzin and rushan which are "self-introductions." N' ...This is not correct-- once you have given people direct introduction, they also receive to things-- authorization to practice guru yoga, for "blessings" and to engage in the preliminary practices for tregchod, rushan and semzin. Rushan and semzin are methods used to discover on one's own the knowledge introduced in the direct introduction. Of course, I always think is it better than people have grounding in Abhidharma before they practice anything-- but that is in an ideal world... ...Rushan and Semzin are used to find the gdangs of one's rigpa after direct introduction if one did not recognize it at that time or to renew one's acquaintance with it, if you will... - Namdrol And as my friend Thusness told me before, I can't remember his exact words but basically he thinks Dzogchen is great because it has a history of thousands of years of texts, teachings, experienced practitioners, methods etc. Basically great resource and tradition.

Wow... Cool.. Are those videos only for dzogchen community members? Sorry just to add: it's not only that, it's about the self-liberating nature of everything, thus as Thusness said 'Vividly present and gone thoroughly.' In the first topic ever created by him (he only created two) titled 'Thusness is just so.' in my Buddhist forum, he wrote: Good stuff! Got this from another forum. http://buddhaboard.com/ ----------- ..and.. ----------- Non-duality must be accompanied with the practice of impermanence like painting on the surface of a pond...vividly clear and instantly gone.

That is a very good book... you should get it! It's about integrating the recognition of rigpa 24/7.

I second that. For starters interested in Dzogchen I would suggest The Crystal and the Way of Light: Sutra, Tantra, and Dzogchen p.s. just now copied wrongly, The Cycle of Day and Night: An Essential Tibetan Text on the Practice of Dzogchen -- this one is a more practical book which I also love and suggest getting. But for starters I would suggest reading The Crystal and the Way of Light first Furthermore: Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche gives Dzogchen transmission online by webcast a few times a year, and also gives talks by webcast. You can go to a ChNNR's Dzogchen community nearby if you have access to.

To Old Man Contradiction - there is no 'beyond' in Buddhism. No manifestation-transcending-eternal-Absolute/Substratum. Just added a point to above: So according to Buddhism what Nisargadatta said is not the most essential state. That is not the absolute state. That is just another state that is equally empty (dependently originated). That too will pass due to its emptiness nature and is no purer than that 'I AM' state. Rigpa and Aggregates From Dharma Overground, Dharma Dan (Daniel M. Ingram): Dear Mark, Thanks for your descriptions and analysis. They are interesting and relevant. I think of it this way, from a very high but still vipassana point of view, as you are framing this question in a vipassana context: First, the breath is nice, but at that level of manifesting sensations, some other points of view are helpful: Assume something really simple about sensations and awareness: they are exactly the same. In fact, make it more simple: there are sensations, and this includes all sensations that make up space, thought, image, body, anything you can imagine being mind, and all qualities that are experienced, meaning the sum total of the world. In this very simple framework, rigpa is all sensations, but there can be this subtle attachment and lack of investigation when high terms are used that we want there to be this super-rigpa, this awareness that is other. You mention that you feel there is a larger awareness, an awareness that is not just there the limits of your senses. I would claim otherwise: that the whole sensate universe by definition can't arise without the quality of awareness by definition, and so some very subtle sensations are tricking you into thinking they are bigger than the rest of the sensate field and are actually the awareness that is aware of other sensations. Awareness is simply manifestation. All sensations are simply present. Thus, be wary of anything that wants to be a super-awareness, a rigpa that is larger than everything else, as it can't be, by definition. Investigate at the level of bare sensate experience just what arises and see that it can't possibly be different from awareness, as this is actually an extraneous concept and there are actually just sensations as the first and final basis of reality. As you like the Tibetan stuff, and to quote Padmasambhava in the root text of the book The Light of Wisdom: I really found this little block of tight philosophy helpful. It is also very vipassana at its core, but it is no surprise the wisdom traditions converge. Thus, if you want to crack the nut, notice that everything is 5 aggregates, including everything you think is super-awareness, and be less concerned with what every little type of consciousness is than with just perceiving them directly and noticing the gaps that section off this from that, such as rigpa from thought stream, or awareness from sensations, as these are golden chains. ---------------------------------- Loppon Namdrol: There is no teaching in Buddhism higher than dependent origination. Whatever originates in dependence is empty. The view of Dzogchen, according to ChNN in his rdzogs chen skor dri len is the same as Prasanga Madhyamaka, with one difference only - Madhyamaka view is a result of intellectual analysis, Dzogchen view is not. Philosophically, however, they are the same. The view of Madhyamaka does not go beyond the view of dependent origination, since the Madhyamaka view is dependent origination. He also cites Sakya Pandita "If there were something beyond freedom from extremes, that would be an extreme." Further, there is no rigpa to speak of that exists separate from the earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness that make up the universe and sentient beings. Rigpa is merely a different way of talking about these six things. In their pure state (their actual state) we talk about the radiance of the five wisdoms of rig pa. In their impure state we talk about how the five elements arise from consciousness. One coin, two sides. And it is completely empty from beginning to end, and top to bottom, free from all extremes and not established in anyway. Dzogchen teachings also describe the process of how sentient being continue in an afflicted state (suffering), what is the cause of that afflicted state (suffering), that fact that afflicted state can cease (the cessation of suffering) and the correct path to end that suffering (the truth of the path). Dzogchen teachings describe the four noble truths in terms of dependent origination also. Ergo, Dzogchen also does not go beyond Buddha's teaching of dependent origination which Nagarjuna describes in the following fashion: I bow to him, the greatest of the teachers, the Sambuddha, by whom dependent origination -- not ceasing, not arising not annihilated, not permanent, not going, not coming, not diverse, not single, was taught as peace in order to pacify proliferation.