xabir2005

Since Self is agreed upon as truly existing, it leads to clinging. My insight is that any clinging to 'It Is' or 'I Am' - the view of Existence, causes grasping. Yes they always talk about Atman transcending the concepts of existence/non-existence, etc, but still there is 'Something' - some entity, some absolute, some ultimate reality, that is transcendental. That very positing of an entity, an absolute, an ultimate reality, itself is the view of existence, no matter how they want to say 'it' transcends concepts and so on. Even at the I AM level you can already say it is non-conceptual. But non-conceptual does not mean you realize its emptiness. As I said before: ... Non-conceptuality does not mean non-attachment. For example when you realize the I AM, you cling to that pure non-conceptual beingness and consciousness as your true identity. You cling to that pure non-conceptual thought very tightly – you wish to abide in that purest state of presence 24/7. This clinging prevents us from experiencing Presence AS the Transience. This is a form of clinging to something non-conceptual. So know that going beyond concepts does not mean overcoming the view of inherency and its resultant clinging clinging. Even in the substantial non-dual phase, there is still clinging to a Source, a One Mind – even though experience is non-dual and non-conceptual. But when inherent view is dissolved, we see there is absolutely nothing we can cling to, and this is the beginning of Right View and the Path to Nirvana – the cessation of clinging and craving. So as you can see, non-conceptual, even non-dual experience does not liberate - so we have to use the intellect to understand right view, and then investigate it in our experience. This is like a fire that in the end burns up the candle it is burning on, consuming itself in the process, leaving no trace even of itself. In other words, conceptual understanding of right view, coupled with investigative practice, results in true realization that dissolves concepts leaving non-conceptual wisdom - but without that process of investigating and trying to understand right view, merely remaining in a state of non-conceptuality isn't going to help you get free. People who fear engaging in thought, trying to understand the right view, challenging their views and understanding of things, are unfortunately going to stick with their own deluded framework of perceiving things... Please quote. As I have already showed you, Nisargadatta's description is precisely the Stage 3, and he treats it as Absolute, as an Ultimate Reality - though transcending the I AM and beingness. By claiming that which transcends those as Self, which is taking something - usually pure consciousness, pure awareness, or in Nisargadatta's case 'nothingness' - as an absolute, ultimate reality, true self. No, it is a paradigm shift, not semantics or words. See if you haven't already: Madhyamika Buddhism Vis-a-vis Hindu Vedanta If it were merely a matter of language, I would not have commented. But I just haven't seen them use true self in the way of emptiness and no-self. Obviously the 'true self' they point to is an absolute, ultimate reality.

Understanding the situation of samsara will put one's mind on the path, or for a few ripe ones, enough to set them free (liberated). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn15/sn15.013.than.html SN 15.13 PTS: S ii 187 CDB i 658 Timsa Sutta: Thirty translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu © 2009–2012 Now on that occasion the Blessed One was dwelling in Rajagaha, in the Bamboo Grove. Then thirty monks from Pava — all wilderness dwellers, all alms-goers, all triple-robe wearers, all still with fetters — went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. Then the thought occurred to the Blessed One, "These thirty monks from Pava... are all still with fetters. What if I were to teach them the Dhamma in such a way that in this very sitting their minds, through lack of clinging, would be released from fermentations?" So he addressed the monks: "Monks." "Yes, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. What do you think, monks? Which is greater, the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, or the water in the four great oceans?" "As we understand the Dhamma taught to us by the Blessed One, this is the greater: the blood we have shed from having our heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans." "Excellent, monks. Excellent. It is excellent that you thus understand the Dhamma taught by me. "This is the greater: the blood you have shed from having your heads cut off while transmigrating & wandering this long, long time, not the water in the four great oceans. "The blood you have shed when, being cows, you had your cow-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans. "The blood you have shed when, being water buffaloes, you had your water buffalo-heads cut off... when, being rams, you had your ram-heads cut off... when, being goats, you had your goat-heads cut off... when, being deer, you had your deer-heads cut off... when, being chickens, you had your chicken-heads cut off... when, being pigs, you had your pig-heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans. "The blood you have shed when, arrested as thieves plundering villages, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as highway thieves, you had your heads cut off... when, arrested as adulterers, you had your heads cut off: Long has this been greater than the water in the four great oceans. "Why is that? From an inconceivable beginning comes transmigration. A beginning point is not evident, though beings hindered by ignorance and fettered by craving are transmigrating & wandering on. Long have you thus experienced stress, experienced pain, experienced loss, swelling the cemeteries — enough to become disenchanted with all fabrications, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. And while this explanation was being given, the minds of the thirty monks from Pava — through lack of clinging — were released from fermentations. See also: SN 15.3. ... Related suttas: 15. Anamatagga-samyutta — The unimaginable beginnings of samsara SN 15.3: Assu Sutta — Tears {S ii 179; CDB i 652} [Thanissaro]. "Which is greater, the tears you have shed while transmigrating and wandering this long, long time... or the water in the four great oceans?" SN 15.9: Danda Sutta — The Stick {S ii 184; CDB i 656} [Thanissaro]. We bounce from one birth to the next, as a thrown stick bounces along the ground. SN 15.11: Duggata Sutta — Fallen on Hard Times {S ii 186; CDB i 657} [Thanissaro]. When you encounter an unfortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. SN 15.12: Sukhita Sutta — Happy {S ii 186; CDB i 658} [Thanissaro]. When you encounter a fortunate person, remember: you've been there, too. SN 15.13: Timsa Sutta — Thirty {S ii 187; CDB i 658} [Thanissaro]. Which is greater, the blood you have shed in your long journey in samsara, or the water in the four great oceans? SN 15.14-19: Mata Sutta — Mother {S ii 189; CDB i 659} [Thanissaro]. It's hard to meet someone who has not been, at some time in the distant past, your mother, father, son, daughter, sister, or brother.

Giving up is not a solution to confusion, it just means you ignore your confusion. The only solution to confusion and ignorance is the arising of prajna wisdom. Before that, trying to grasp the correct teachings of Buddhism, and then practicing it, is vital. To do that you need good source of knowledge which often includes a wise teacher. Having so much already solves half your confusion. When wisdom arises - the realization-experience you talk about, all confusion ends.

Anatta or no-self is only one part of right view... Albeit an essential and vital part for liberation. It so happens that there are many occasions for me to talk about it... I didn't wish to sound repetitive on this but it so happens that many times, it was being singled out or brought out for discussion. When Buddha talks about right view, he also talks about things like karma, rebirth, four noble truths, dependent origination and so on.

hi, as I have said I am familiar with Nisargadatta's teachings having read hundreds of pages of them. I am very clear what he teaches. For example he said, "In this spiritual hierarchy, from the grossest to the subtlest, you are the subtlest. How can this be realized? The very base is that you don’t know you are, and suddenly the feeling of ‘I amness’ appears. The moment it appears you see space, mental space; that subtle sky-like space, stabilize there. You are that. When you are able to stabilize in that space, you are space only. When this space-like identity ‘I am’ disappears, the space will also disappear, there is no space. When that space-like ‘I am’ goes into oblivion, that is the eternal state, ‘nirguna’, no form, no beingness. Actually, what did happen there? This message ‘I am’ was no message. Dealing with this aspect, I cannot talk much because there is no scope to put it in words." Also he said, "The ‘I am’ is absent only in the state of ‘samadhi’, when the self merges in the Self. Otherwise it will be there. In the state of a realized person the ‘I am’ is there, he just doesn’t give much importance to it. A ‘jnani’ is not guided by a concept." This is the description of Stage 3, which as Thusness have said is the state where even beingness or consciousness enters oblivion. When you realize Stage 4 and 5, I.e. Nondual and anatta, then there is no more hierarchy, no more making nothingness-prior-to-i-am as the purest state. Whether I AM, nothingness, or sensate manifestation, all are equally pure. There is no purest absolute state. This is realized only when you see that always already, in seeing just the seen, no seer. Always already, there is no I, so there is no entry and exit, 'I am' identity is not only absent in samadhi state or a purest Absolute, but is already so in all manifestations. And yes, Thusness too have said before that Nisargadatta is describing stage 3, and leads students to I AM first then to the nothingness.

Its very simple really, not as complicated as you think. Seth Ananda quoted Nisargadatta, who is describing the nothingness as absolute (thusness stage 3), and being the same as anatta. Therefore I say he has not understood. What Nisargatta taught is beyond I AM, but is not anatta, and still lends to the view of a self and a source. Note that I did not make claims of seth's level of prajna, only that he is mistaken on this point, I do not need to make statements more than what is necessary. I have realized anatta so will definitely know it when someone describes it. Like if you tasted apple, then you will know when another person describes the same thing to you.

No, it has nothing to do with belief. I have seen, realized, how the view of self shapes perception and leads to clinging. I have seen how every clinging comes down to the view 'it is' (exists) or 'it is not'. You have missed what I said earlier. Nisargadatta has went beyond I AM, but the Self they take is actually the nothingness - a source prior or beyond the I AM - which is nonetheless still a Self view. There is no realization of anatta being taught by them.

Also with regards to the discussion of buddhists online being more intellectually inclined, I disagree, and can cite Kenneth Folk Dharma and Dharma Overground among a number of forums which is more catered to practice and meditation inclined Buddhists.

Hi SereneBlue, Seth Ananda did not assert a Self, and I did not accuse him of holding self view. The problem is that he is unable to discern what the party is talking about, or he is not fully clear about the different insights and problems that can surface in those phases of insights. He is for example, mistaking the "dissolving into nothingness" phase with the realization of anatta. The view of self, in all and any manners, leads to clinging. Doesn't matter what you view self as, or even if you do not have a clear view of what self is (like most ordinary persons) - nonetheless the view that I Am, I exist, is latent and affecting our perception every moment. Even if you take something like Pure Consciousness or Nothingness as identity, it is going to cause clinging. As I wrote: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/07/view.html The View Posted by: An Eternal Now Just posted in The Tao Bums a week ago: I have just come to a new realisation of the implications of views in daily life. I could have misunderstood what goldisheavy meant but I think it has to do with the fields of meaning. I have realised how ideas, beliefs, notions, views pervade our life and causes attachment. I now see that every single attachment is an attachment to view, which, no matter what it is, comes to two basic clinging: the view 'there is' and the view 'there isn't'. I started by noticing how in the past I had a sense of self, body and awareness... That these all seem so real to me and I kept coming back to that subjective sense and this is no longer the case now: I don't even have a sense of a body nowadays. Then I realized that all these clingings are related to view. The view of There is.... Self, body, mind, awareness, world, whatever. Because of this clinging on to things as existent, they appear real to us and we cling to them. The only way to eradicate such clingings is to remove the root of clinging: the view of 'there is' and 'there isn't'. The realization of anatta removes the view of 'there is self', 'there is awareness' as an independent and permanent essence. Basically, any views about a subjective self is removed through the insight that "seeing is just the seen", the subject is always only its objective constituents. There is no more sense of self, body, awareness, or more precisely there is no clinging to a "there is" with regards to such labels. It is seen that these are entirely ungraspable processes. In short the clinging and constant referencing to an awareness, a self dissolves, due to the notion "there is" such things are being eradicated. The realization of dream-like reality removes the view of 'there are objects', the universe, the world of things... One realizes what heart sutra meant by no five skandhas. This is basically the same realization as anatta, except that it impacts the view "there is" and "there isn't" in terms of the objective pole, in contrast to the earlier insight that dissolves "there is" of a subjective self. What I have overlooked all these while is the implications of views and how the thicket of views cause all clingings and suffering and what underpins those thicket of views, and how realization affects and dissolves these views. ---------- Related stuff: A view is a fundamental belief one holds about reality. For example, "everything exists" (sarva asti) .... The root of both these mistaken positions is "is" and "is not" -- for example "I exist now, and I will continue to exist after death" or "I exist now but when I die I will cease to exist". ~ Loppon Namdrol At base, the main fetter of self-grasping is predicated upon naive reification of existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is what allows us to see into the non-arising nature of dependently originated phenomena, i.e. the self-nature of our aggregates. Thus, right view is the direct seeing, in meditative equipoise, of this this non-arising nature of all phenomena. As such, it is not a "view" in the sense that is something we hold as concept, it is rather a wisdom which "flows" into our post-equipoise and causes us to truly perceive the world in the following way in Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana: "Form is similar to a foam, Feeling is like water bubbles, Ideation is equivalent with a mirage, Formations are similar with a banana tree, Consciousness is like an illusion." ... "In other words, right view is the beginning of the noble path. It is certainly the case that dependent origination is "correct view"; when one analyzes a bit deeper, one discovers that in the case "view" means being free from views. The teaching of dependent origination is what permits this freedom from views." ~ Loppon Namdrol Another related article from an Actualist practitioner: http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/2011/07/conversations-breakthrough.html#more

I see. The effect of realizing emptiness is that you truly realize and see everything as being like a magical illusion, apparent yet utterly without substance, so everything becomes self-releasing. But don't worry about that for now. What you experienced is not realization of emptiness, but a shamatha or calm abiding state where you are temporarily able to let go of body and mind. Realization of emptiness is an advanced realization. Realization of emptiness will occur much later on your path. For now just focus on the luminous clarity, experiencing the intensity of luminosity in the minutest details of the sensate world through mindfulness. Then along with that, with a few pointers and contemplation of no-self, the insight into no-self can arise. After that, then contemplate on emptiness of all phenomena.

Everyone who practice breathing meditation should read this carefully: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.118.than.html

No not emptiness realization... It is good to keep this in mind: “All forms are but illusions, in seeing that all forms are illusory , one sees the Tathagata”. (Diamond Sutra) Try to practice mindfulness meditation such as anapanasati or the four foundations of mindfulness, or the instructions I gave, or this url: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe13.html It is quite common to get into hypnogogic states when the mind is sufficiently relaxed. When hypnogogic states arise, rather than entertaining or getting excited about them, it is best to go back to mindfulness of the breathe. Insights do not arise out of vision but awareness-discernment and insight contemplation. Your meditation shows you have achieved some kind of progress in inner tranquility or the shamatha aspect (and you experienced what Buddha calls tranquilizing bodily formation (one of the earlier stages of the 16 anapanasati stages to nirvana) to the point where body seems to disappear)... But do not lose your mindfulness lest you fall into a dull state.

We should not look down on arhats by thinking they are not compassionate, does not have metta, etc. Correct knowledge of what entails arhat and bodhisattva is therefore important.

Lots of Arhats also have very big compassion and led much more people to liberation than any Mahayana teachers today... you should read Great Disciples of the Buddha. Big compassion and metta however, does not mean you have taken the vow to continue your practice until Buddhahood. In the case of Arhats, their compassion manifest only within that life, and after that, since they do not make Bodhicitta vows, they simply enter into cessation... for a very long time.

Not true. Since Metta was taught in the Pali Suttas, a large number, I think most, of the Arhats would have been trained in that. So having metta is not equivalent to Bodhisattva. Lots of Arhats have experienced metta. Lots of mundane people too have experienced metta. Metta is one of the Brahmaviharas - mundane but virtuous mental qualities that are meritorious and can lead to rebirth in the Brahma worlds for a long time, but in itself does not lead to liberation. An Arhat is one who realizes the 1st fold emptiness - evidenced by the Abhidhamma and commentaries substantializing phenomena while teaching no subjective self. Anyway, a Bodhisattva is one who vows to attain Buddhahood, and such a person who, after realizing twofold emptiness, attains to the 1st Bhumi Bodhisattva stage.

Traditionally, stream entry to Arhats realize (at least) the First Emptiness, anatta. They also realize and experience dependent origination, but not to the extent of the emptiness of all phenomena. Bodhisattvas realize two emptiness. Here is an excerpt from a Buddhist glossary site on the definition of twofold Emptiness: Two emptinesses (二空) include (1) emptiness of self, the ātman, the soul, in a person composed of the five aggregates, constantly changing with causes and conditions; and (2) emptiness of selves in all dharmas—each of the five aggregates, each of the twelve fields, and each of the eighteen spheres, as well as everything else with no independent existence. No-self in any dharma implies no-self in a person, but the latter is separated out in the first category. Realization of the emptiness of self in a person will lead to attainment of Arhatship or Pratyekabuddhahood. Bodhisattvas who have realized both emptinesses ascend to the First Ground on their Way to Buddhahood.

It was not by Buddha. It was by BUKKYO DENDO KYOKAI http://members.home.nl/gerhardnijenhuis/msp/buddha.htm#TOC Next, the Buddha realizes the world is illusory, but continues to act in the most sensible, compassionate, virtuous way.

Yes. The mirror bright must be experienced... it is very important. There is something I think is well written: http://www.urbandharma.org/udharma4/mpe13.html

Has anyone seen a mirror that has no reflection? What is a mirror that doesn't reflect? Not a mirror. Even if the mirror reflects the infinite clear blue sky, that infinite clear blue sky is also another reflection. Anyway... just a sharing: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2009/01/three-levels-of-understanding-of-non.html The Three Levels of "Understanding" of Non-dual Awareness Posted by: An Eternal Now Thusness/Passerby's reply to me (slightly edited based on references to another post): Yes but what said can still have the following scenario: 1. There is an Awareness reflecting thoughts and manifestation. ("I AM") Mirror bright is experienced but distorted. Dualistic and Inherent seeing. 2. Thoughts and manifestation are required for the mirror to see itself. Non-Dualistic but Inherent seeing. Beginning of non-dual insight. 3. Thoughts and manifestation have always been the mirror (The mirror here is seen as a whole) Non-Dualistic and non-inherent insight. In 3 not even a quantum line can be drawn from whatever arises; whatever that appears to come and goes is the Awareness itself. There is no Awareness other than that. We should use the teachings of Anatta (no-self), DO (dependent origination) and Emptiness to see the 'forms' of awareness.

Not-exactly to equate it with wu wei, but wu wei is a vital part of the practice. Wu Wei can lead to the discovery of the Timeless Presence. Why? 'Wei' means action. All actions lead away from Presence. When I discovered the Presence 2 years ago... I wrote a poem in which I still remember, part of it was... 'Not moving a step, I have arrived. (Presence)' If you are already at the North Pole, all movements is a movement away from it into delusion.

You are of course, right... right view is in fact no view. However, 'view' is something that is latent in us... so much so that it is actually subconsciously affecting our perception of the unawakened life in every moment, shaping our perception into 'observer' and 'observed', inside and outside... if you hear a sound, or see a sight, don't you feel that they are 'outside' and you are 'in here'? Even if you do not make a gross concept about what you are... nonetheless the view and construct of a self, a subject and an object, an inside and an outside, is something very obvious to you... it may seem as truly real but actually it is just the view and construct hypnotizing you like a dream like a magical spell... it seems real, but actually isn't. Self-view is present in ALL beings who are still unawakened... and in Buddhism it is taught that it is precisely this ignorance, this view of self, that leads to the attachment of 'I', 'me', 'mine', that drives the entire craving, clinging, karma-making, rebirth-making process of samsara... that which leads to all suffering. Agnostics are not spared... eternalist and nihilist are likewise not spared. No one is spared... except the awakened, liberated ones, freed from ignorance, freed from views, clinging, craving, karma-producing, samsara-producing, suffering-making processess. The way to liberation is the understanding of Right View... up to Right Mindfulness and Right Concentration, as per described in the Noble Eightfold Path.

Rather than arguing this and that and getting mired in side-issues and thereby missing what vmarco is trying t communicate, its better for everyone to focus on the main point vmarco is trying to bring out... something that can be discovered by everyone with some investigation on their own part. This is much more beneficial and constructive. What vmarco is trying to point us out is what he calls Clear Light, Presence, Timeless Present, Now. This is what can only be discovered when we put all thoughts, all concepts, aside... it cannot be touched by thought, but only discovered as an undivided, non-conceptual, direct, immediate, pure presence. Just the 'actualness' of the unfabricated, naturally and undeniably Present Pure Presence. Simply abiding in this can lead to the sense of being very grounded in the Reality of the Timeless Present/Now, which is without movement. The meditative experience and realization of the ISness Presence, Knowingness Presence, the AMness, is a very powerful one. It creates the impression of Certainty, Absoluteness and Realness. It creates the impression that we have touched the innermost reality of our own core being where thoughts play absolutely no role in that moment of experience. It is the conviction of your very own existence itself. You will see you are much more than just an inanimate body, you are not a robot or a machine - we are pure existence-consciousness itself. Pure Presence. The luminous mind, as Buddha calls it.

By the way if you can't see No-Self or Anatta right now... thats fine. In fact if you want to aim for the realization of I AM, please go ahead... that is what I advise in my e-book to - I dedicate an entire chapter on the 'how to' of self-inquiry to realize the I AM. This is what Thusness had me to go through as well. Then through the confusions, with the pointing and guidance of Thusness, I was able to figure my way through the territories and get to where I am today. But IMO, it is still quite important for there to be an open mind and some faith in a highly realized and experienced teacher... in order for progress to arise swiftly, or even to occur at all. This had been my experience.