windblown

I saw that I could post I-Ching stuff here so I have a question. Actually I asked a question of the I-Ching yesterday. Here it is: "Will the I-Ching teach me more about Tao?" I threw the pennies 6 times and got Hexagram 8 called Pi or Unity. My changing lines were 6 and 1. The reading is awesome and definitely points to me studying the I-Ching to fly with the currents of the winds of Tao. However the changing lines are opposed. Here's the Hexagram meaning overall..."Now the water lies on top of the earth, flowing toward other water, forming streams that unite into rivers that flow into seas. All the lines are feminine and yielding except the fifth which holds them all together. Unity brings good fortune. Consult the Oracle again to discover whether you posses true grace, constancy and perseverance If so, then take the lead. If not, then join the endeavour and participate fully. QUESTION 1...I like the reading, why should I have to throw the coins again like it says above...darn it? QUESTION 2...Both changing lines give totally opposite answers...which one counts??? The meanings are as follows; Changing Line 1 says: "True loyalty is without reproach. When the breast is as full of sincerity as a flowing bowl, good fortune comes from far away." Changing Line 6 says: "There is no great leader, no union. Great misfortune." So I am rather confused about changing lines...is the I-Ching so complicated that each time I read a changing line I have to read multiple other Hexagrams. I am of very little brain. How do I simplify this? Is there an easier way to understand the I-Ching?

Thanks Manitou...very wise and true words. I am always astounded by your depth and ability to convey deep meaning with words. I am a little rough around the edges in that department. I too believe the twelve steps, and especially 11, are a horizontal path with Taoist philosophy. Wu-Wei is the coolest thing when I can work it right. It just makes me so happy. I have decided after reading the first half of the Wu-Wei, I-Ching book, that it is too complicated an endeavor for me right now. I am just not ready. Plus I am horrible at math and numbers are excruciatingly painful for me to 'get.' I have to be true to my inner nature which doesn't care to know the future but to make it as good as I can by practicing Wu-Wei in every moment of now. (Which of course is impossible for me all the time, but an ideal to aspire to!) I am more of a visual person. I work in a framing store where I get to match colors in the art work to a rainbow of mats and over 300 different frames. And I love it. I know the I-Ching is a great and wonderfulthing that directly connects us to the universe but at this time it is not the path for me. I can't force it. I admire and respect all of you that are on that path and I thank you for your support here. Please don't be disappointed in me.

Got the day off Manitou...Yay! 'll see ya on the Tao Te Ching forum and the Nei thing! As far as A.A goes, I am bored with the wierdos, nazis and parrots..not slamming the organization...it was there when I needed it most. However, I have a theory about the whole alkie thing. I had to hit bottom, like they say. I thought I had done this many other times but the last time was different. I finally 'got it' to the core of my being that I could never drink again. There was no lingering threads of clutching fingers on that beer bottle. I am done. I know I will never drink again whether I go to A.A or Mars. And A.A. is not going to scare me into thinking if I quit going to meetings, I'll get drunk. It's still the best and easiest way to get sober but I have a need for freedom and change and A.A.'s not too big on either...my name's Windblown for gosh sakes! Time to whistle 'round the next corner and here I am!!!

Zerostao, I really like your approach to learning the I-Ching. It takes the scariness out of it for me. I like that I can think of the I-Ching as a very wise person and form a relationship with it. And in time, I will develop my own method for line reading. Thanks for your open-minded and gentle approach. Eric23-I bought the Wu-Wei I-Ching and have gotten as far as the introduction-I will read it through before practicing as I think it a very good idea. Thanks. Easy-After the Wu-Wei edition I will buy Cleary's book. I have heard it was really good too. Appreciate the advice Allan-I think you're right. It's going to take time. And I consider all of you here to be my teachers. Don't worry, I won't be too needy but I will glean much info. by staying close to this site and all of you. Thanks. Mr. T-keeping the taiji symbol in mind coinsides with the book of changes. It in indeed a visual reminder of the Way throughout the I-Ching-thanks for sharing your observation. Gotta go to work...thank you to all!!!

I sit on my bed and close my eyes and feel my breath. Thoughts are jin-jangled all over the place. I bring my mind back to the breathing...then again worry comes, anxiety, my knee itches...I can't stand it! I am awful at sitting and could never have a desk job. Is there a simpler form of Taoist meditation? I know about Chi-Gung but the classes are expensive and 30 minutes away from here and I'm tired after work. Maybe there is a good video, although i don't know how to work husband's t.v. I know being aware of every moment is nice when I remember it--but isn't that Zen meditation? Sometime when I'm in the throes of work and running around the store like a rabbit I say to myself, "I Wu-Wei Now!" Is that a meditation? I am undisciplined ad that's not going to change I don't think. I have improved greatly over the years but I only can go so far. I wonder what Lao-Tsu's advice would be for me? He might say something that hurts my feelings like that guru in India I spent 4 months with in the ashram. He was enlightened but he was rather arrogant and not to fond of Westerners. I just wanna' be Winnie-The-Pooh in the hundred acre wood with nothing much to do but what I do...which is very little but somehow it all gets done. And Pooh doesn't really meditate. He just is. So why bother meditating. I'm all confused. I can't live in the Winnie the Pooh book.

Lovely, lovely, Center. I can do that sort of Taoist meditation! It's always right in front of our eyes, so simple I sometimes miss it. But it just is and we just are. And we go about it naturally loving and living. As far as bathrooms go....shudder...I am the worst procrastinter when it comes to cleaning them...ooooh yucky. It is bothering me how much I need to clean my bathroom right now. I think you are right about this I really do. I will clean it on my day off on Wed. I promise myself. Maybe afterwards I will light a candle. That is an awful and wonderful meditation. I don't like the dirt in the corners. How will I ever do it? And mops are gross and the toilet is icky. I clean the whole house and neglect the bathrooms. This is a challenge I will try to overcome but I don't like it!

O.K. Eric23...I will read Wu-Wei's book through. I know he has two books written at Barnes and Noble and I have $23.00 dollars in my pocket today. One of his books is on the I-Ching and the other is on something else about the I-Ching. I actually have tried to learn the I-Ching before so I have more accumulated time than two weeks but I have retained only about 2 weeks of knowledge. I'm open and I need a new read...Thanks!

[quote name='manitou' "I like to do this as a meditation sometimes to feel connected to Everything. Sometimes if you're sitting in a doctor's office or someplace where there are a variety of sounds (a train depot?) it's wonderful to just close your eyes and listen to every single sound around you; and giving no more importance to any one sound than the other; to imagine it as a symphony. It's pretty powerful and makes an instant connection." Me, "Cool..then I'm doing a meditation...that answers another question in a different thread about 'simple' meditation. Never know how my answers will come to me...like a frisbee in the sky-comes outta' nowhere-thanks Manitou." Manitou quote,"(So much for the next 10 years, windblown, lol. I read one of your previous posts in a different thread). I agree that sometimes it's good to take a break from shoving new stuff into our heads and let the inner awarenesses catch up. Me quote...Yeah, keep it simple sweetie!

[quote name='manitou' "I like to do this as a meditation sometimes to feel connected to Everything. Sometimes if you're sitting in a doctor's office or someplace where there are a variety of sounds (a train depot?) it's wonderful to just close your eyes and listen to every single sound around you; and giving no more importance to any one sound than the other; to imagine it as a symphony. It's pretty powerful and makes an instant connection." Me, "Cool..then I'm doing a meditation...that answers another question in a different thread about 'simple' meditation. Never know how my answers will come to me...like a frisbee in the sky-comes outta' nowhere-thanks Manitou." Manitou quote,"(So much for the next 10 years, windblown, lol. I read one of your previous posts in a different thread). I agree that sometimes it's good to take a break from shoving new stuff into our heads and let the inner awarenesses catch up. Me quote...Yeah, keep it simple sweetie!

[quote name='manitou' "I like to do this as a meditation sometimes to feel connected to Everything. Sometimes if you're sitting in a doctor's office or someplace where there are a variety of sounds (a train depot?) it's wonderful to just close your eyes and listen to every single sound around you; and giving no more importance to any one sound than the other; to imagine it as a symphony. It's pretty powerful and makes an instant connection." Me, "Cool..then I'm doing a meditation...that answers another question in a different thread about 'simple' meditation. Never know how my answers will come to me...like a frisbee in the sky-comes outta' nowhere-thanks Manitou." Manitou quote,"(So much for the next 10 years, windblown, lol. I read one of your previous posts in a different thread). I agree that sometimes it's good to take a break from shoving new stuff into our heads and let the inner awarenesses catch up. Me quote...Yeah, keep it simple sweetie!

This would be way cool but my husband and teen-aged sons won't be into it! I can't hurt them by up and leaving but it'd be great for younger folks or those without family attachments. Can I come for a visit? I think it would be ideal living...maybe in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Western N.C. or Tennessee? I'ts beautiful there, good climate, lots of teeny farms, a zillion hardwood forests, streams and waterfalls. In Tennessee it would be cheaper and less developed than n N.C. I think Tenn. has the cheapest land in America. Me, I'm just looking for a house out of this crammed in sub-division in the heart of Las Vegas. Something out in the desert with an acre and no immediate neighbors. Some place where I can hear the wind whistle. Maybe even a real tree and grass instead of 'desert landscaping' which means gravel! Keep the dream alive!

I do ? thanks..

It sounds intriguing and overwhelming all at once. I've decided I don't want to dedicate the next 10 years of my life to learning the I-Ching. Plus it's too difficult for me to understand. I certainly do respect those of you who have and are studying it. It must be a powerful adjunct to your spirituality and life learning. I admire your tenacity. Thanks for posting.

I quit going to A.A. so this is where I stop in to connect. I like being allowed to be myself here. I used to be intimidated by all the males on here but y'all seem pretty cool to me now. It's awesome to be able to discuss things with like-minded individuals...not a lot of Taoists here in Las Vegas!!!

I stayed at te Isha Yoga Center in Coimbatore India which is South of Bombay. It is non-denominational and the enlightened guru is Sathguru Jaggi Vasudev. He is remarkable. He teaches shoonya meditation, kundalini yoga and pranyamas. It costs $10.00 a day for volunteers. They have a beautiful temple. The ashram is located in the foothills of the mountains where wild elephants roam.

So basically hexagram 8 is a 'telling' and hex. 42 is the 'counsel?' What's the difference between a telling and a counsel? Does Hex. 8 actually have no bearing in the situation? Yes, I did start from bottom up. So both lines change and make a different hexagram...you don't use just the first changing line and ignore the 2nd changing line? Somewhere I read that if you have multiple changing lines you only pick one. Ayway, thanks for your post. I am enthusiastic about learning. I will read hex. 42 but now I have to go to work.

It's interesting that this chapter was chosen. I am about to be offered a promotion at work that will hopefully come with a small raise. I know that the girl before, before last made $9.00 per hour. This made the current last girl very upset as she only made $8.67. I was hired at $8.50. I've been there 5 months. It's a retail job. My question is do I ask for $9.00 when offered the promotion or do I settle for the .25 cents raise that she will try to give me? I should get what the before, before girl made as I have equal experience. The new job entails much more responsibility and hard work and the manager is known for slicing the budget to a minimum...including payroll. She is highly moody and I don't want to get on her bad side but at the same time I am not an assertive person and perhaps I should try to be in this instance. I know some of you may be laughing that I only make $8.50 an hour at 40 years old but to tell you what...this is the best job I've ever had and I love going to work! As this practical situation relates to this chapter does it mean that I should be free from the desire of asking for the extra quarter raise? Should i just take what is offered and go about my business? I am the idealist type but I'm starting to be more practical which has certainly balanced my life out in a very positive way. The only way I can 'get' the Tao Te Ching is to apply it to real situations in my life otherwise it remains superfluous theory. I hope you all don't mind my approach to trying to solve problems using the wisdom of the Tao Te Ching.

Marblehead said, " Hi Windblown, Nice to see I have another member I might be able to get into some spirited discussions with. Hehehe. But here is not the place as attention should be given to Non's questions and comments. " I say, "But I WAS placing my attention on Non's questions and comments. My post comes from my heart and my experiences. It touches on what Non wrote. It is true for me and I'm sharing it with Non. I'm trying to help in my own way. "

Having left my body numerous times in astral travel experiences...I can tell you personally that there is life beyond our wildest imaginations on many planes of existence... brilliant, wonderful and incredibly beautiful. But me telling you that is bunk until you have have had it happen to you. Anyone can learn to leave their body and float into the astral where thoughts manifest immediately wherever we wish to do or go. I have never 'tried' to do this astral travelling thing-it has always happened to me spontaneously. Sometimes I can go a year before it happens again. And it happens when I am the most twisted up in thoughts of WTF are we here for anyway!!! Then I am given a solace, a beautiful waking dream, a clue to the multiplicity of existence and the enormity of experience. But who freakin' cares about my dreams...right? O.K. so for me, I get exactly like you... repeatedly. It's a pattern in spiritually minded people to get very connected to source, only then to fade a bit, then to doubt everything and everybody,(which I feel is very healthy but causes me extreme anxiety,) then to get angry about the whole dang thing cuz nobody seems to know and the ones that pretend to are just plain annoying know-it-alls...dang them too! I feel lost, confused and emotional. I wonder why the heck isn't the whole world wondering why Were Are Here instead of going about their mundane lives! I am angry at whoever created this game we are playing and why can't whoever this creator is come into my living room and give me some freakin' answers if their so powerful. Then I say something like this, "Whoever or whatever you are...give me the willingness to be willing to understand Something!!!" Then some synchronistic thing happens very subtly I tell you. Like the morning I screamed the willingness thing to the universe...went to work as usual and for some reason tuned into the song playing in the store by The Red Hots, "The more I learn, the less I know, the more I got to let it go..He Oh...Whoa... That rocketed me into Tao...into letting go. Why the body, why life, why animals? Who knows? I don't. I don't need to. Trying to understand makes me crazy. It is fathomless. If you ask people the meaning of life...you will get a million dfferent answers, some will be quite clever and profound but in all honesty no one really knows. If it makes me crazy...why chase it? Let it go...then I have the chance of learning something. Which to me means stop trying so hard. Allow it to happen. Just enjoy it. Be true to your inner nature. Don't get too tangled up in other people's created spiritual paths...follow what seems true to you. I personally don't care for Buddhism because I don't like the word...'Dharma' and chanting things in some foreign tongue and reading boring scriptures and thinking life is suffering. I commend the followers of Buhddism, (always had trouble spelling that word) because I feel it is a very beautiful way to live but I don't have or want that type of structure and discipline in my life. I also don't want to chase enlightenment. Been there, done that. Talk about ego problems. Sure maybe that's shallow but so what? I'd rather have fun with life. and practice wu-wei and be surprised and delighted with the beautiful things and the subtleties. I don't have to be all good and compassionate but by following the way I'm in harmony with myself, the world and others.

I hear ya. I was raised Christian and God was the Father, the Male and the He. I did not like my own Father too well and then I had to hear about this other Father who was my Creator and the epitome of it all. God was pictured as an old man with a white beard living in the clouds. This is what I learned in Sunday school as a child. Then I got into 2 relationships with angry men, one after another. They beat the cr#p out of me. I began to dislike men. I started going to A.A. meetings because I had a drinking problem. There was the God thing all over again. HE was all through the Big Book. There's even a chapter written, "To Women," about how the wife should deal with the alcoholic husband---as if there were no such think as a drunk of a wife herself! All the alkies are men in the meat of the book. Sure it was written in the 30's but no one has ever bothered to change it. Oh heavens no, A.A. doesn't like change. And I can understand-it has worked for many people just the way it it. Us females are told just to 'get over' the verbage and get the message. But I always found it hard. And then there is Buddha, and Lao-Tzu, and Christ and Allah and al the presidents...all Dudes, again. Did men ever wonder what it was like to be female with all these superhero spiritual Male icons? We just accept it and do our thing. So I found Paganism-Wicca in particular where the Goddess-the feminine was revered-what a breath of fresh air. But that got old...after all--- it can't just be one sex dominating and be truth..something intrinsically wrong with that. And I felt the male energies were excluded...which they were in several circles I attended. Too many women make things weird...we need the men folks to even the equation. So I left that deal. I love the Tao Te Ching...don't get me wrong...but there are times I don't agree with all of it. A human like me, wrote it anyway. It's the closest thing I've found to the truth, the most appealing and the happiest way for me to live but I don't grab on too hard. Maybe back in China all those years ago, what Lao Tsu wrote made sense for the times. I'm female obviously but I'm a tomboy...not a lesbian...but a tomboy. I have a lot of dude in me. So what? My husband has a lot of feminine in him. It's cool. I think what Lao Tzu is saying, (if he's the one who wrote the book,) is that you get further with not trying to force things, to be gentle and let people be who they are, ..they are attributes that can be cultivated in anyone male or female. I know lots of females who could do this and get a lot farther than acting like tough dudes in a modern world. In fact I'm irritated with the Feminist movement...now I gotta' work!

English/Feng "To talk little is natural. " Reading this does something...gives me something to chew on...opens up the universal energies for me to live it. I don't 'know' the truth of this intimately but it sounds good. I'd like to be in that type of stillness. I do meditate every day now and have passed the anxious stage of not getting it 'right.' I just sit in my bed and feel the breath going in and out of my nose. I watch the thoughts like clouds and gently bring my mind to empty when I notice I am thinking again. Sometimes I fall asleep which is quite beautiful too. I don't mind. However I am rather chatty at work and with my family. I adore listening to others and being open to them. I used to think I was an introvert and secretly coveted this superior, (or so I thought,) way of being. But I was isolating and closed in and rather self-absorbed. I felt 'unique.' Now I love talking to many different people. It helps me to realize the commonalities that we as humans share. I feel unity. So I suppose I'm not there yet...maybe I will metamorphisize into that. Do I even want to? Hmmmmm. Of course the effort of 'trying to be quiet' is so fake and pretend sageism. I used to be a little like that too. After all I had been to India and studied meditation and Yoga with an Enlightened Master...Ha! I realize how little I know now but the greatest realization is don't have to beat my head against the wall trying to 'figure out life.' I just get to be my natural self and not care two hoots what other people think. And usually, they seem to like me so it all works out. Following intuition or wu-wei sure makes life easier. I have to remember to stop trying to control everything and get all twisted in my mind. Al-anon is great for this. Anyways...I find these chapters rather overwhelming with so much to take in. I can only do one line at a time and hope that I may experience that particular ideal.

Nanashi wrote; " If people are just trading down addictions (eating, caffeine, alcohol, spiritualism, nicotine, THC, pharmaceuticals, etc), at what point should one recognize the chain of dependency to stimulate their mood? Not criticizing there, just curious. " Most people I know in A.A. claim to have 'addictive' personalities...so they definitely recognize their dependencies with substances. Denial is the biggest block to people not getting help. Step One is 'Admitting you got a problem and that it's screwing your life up." Most people never even get to that point of being able to look at themselves and say, " Hey...maybe I need to do something about this situation instead of blaming it on everyone else." Mainly I see coffee, cigs. and sugar,(from all the yearly Birthday cakes!) As far as being addicted to Spiritualism...do you mean the religion of 'Spiritualism' or being a Spiritual person? Is it really possible not to Be Spiritual if we are Human? If we run from spirit, we can't because we Are it. We can't try to be Tao because we already are. Like Alan Watts said," Your mouth chews but you can't chew your own mouth." Trying to do something about their problems instead of say...driving drunk and running over your wife or Mother. or staying in denial of whatever their addicted to crippling all the friends and family around them...is far worse than being 'addicted' to spiritualism. We all have unique inner natures. Recovering addicts are some of the most loving, honest and 'spiritual' people on the planet. Just because someone has or had a dependancy on a substance doesn't make them any less 'aware' of it. It's estimated that 80% of alcohol/drug riddled folks have an underlying mental illness such as depression, Bipolar I or Bipolar II, PTSD, Anxiety that has gone untreated for most of their lives. They have tried to self-medicate using drugs or alcohol which only makes the condition worse. Pharmaceuticals, (another skatey topic with some A.A. members,) have helped me tremendously. I have had Bipolar II since I was 18 and never knew it. I have been off and on Pharma. so many times I can't count. I always wanted to not have to take them; to be pure and natural...but even off booze and in the program I struggled to the point of not being able to function...to be a Mother, to clean a house, to keep a job. I was nuts without the meds. Now I have accepted that I have this Bipolar stuff...I don't 'live' the disease like some people i know...half the time I forget about it but I do take my meds every morning and I am able to lead a normal life due to them. I know it sucks but if I had cancer i'd for sure take my meds then...so why not with a mental illness? Believe me, I have tried to do the exclusive Tao thing with exercize, nutrition, living in the woods in a natural state, meditation...you name it... to function without meds...and the whole shebang collapses and I wind up in the hospital or unable to cope. So I do the easier thing...take the help that's offered, accept that I have a chemical imbalance in the old braino, don't ponder it too much, and live a beautiful day. Overcoming obstacles is easier if I go around them than try to force myself to be something I'm not-which is totally sane!

My husband has anxiety ad panic disorder to an extreme. He has used every pharmaceutical to allieve his symptoms but they make him groggy and sleepy; so he can't operate his computer at work. He has always done well with marijuana and is now in the medical marijuana program in our state. He has 2 and a half years sober in A.A. When he told his sponsor about his medical treatment with herb, his sponsor 'fired' him. It was very disheartening so I know where you're coming about the stance of some A.A. members and mj. I'm in A.A. for drinking and so is he. Pot is his medicine-he doesn't abuse it at all and has never had a problem with it. I think it is a very effective medicine for him. I can't even tell when he's smoked. So I hear ya on that, Manitou. I'll certainly check out the Tao Te Ching forum. Happy Valentines everyone!

I'm also a Taoist 12 Stepper-I find the two paths intertwine and mingle quite harmoniously. I am a recovering alcoholic with 2 years sober. Yay! I never was a daily drinker, never drank hard liquor...just a beer binger but enough to change my personality when I drank; enough to affect the choices I made while drinking or even in between bouts; enough to make my life unmanageable. So in my opinion...12 Step programs are the first place to go to heal an addiction. They are There for you...lots of other folks in the same boat trying to change their lives....lots of support for whatever addiction. Here's the deal with 12 step programs. They work if you are willing to do a few simple things. For me having and calling a lady in the program with lots of sober time has been incredibly easier for me to stay sober. We talk about issues we both have and how to work through them. Most people in active addiction tend to isolate so having a sponsor to walk you through the steps and 'be there for you' is very important. Also get phone numbers from other members and call them! It's important to keep a close spiritual connection every day with whatever Higher Power you choose. I read lots of meditations, Tao Te Ching, and try to live Wu-wei and go with the flow of the Universal energies...all that Tao stuff works for me. In the beginning lots of meetings are important-I don't go to so many now. Lots of the 12 step slogans reverberate with Taoist teachings; Keep it Simple, Just for Today, Let Go and Let Tao, (God if you choose...like Wu-Wei,) Live and Let Live,(don't try to change someone else's inner nature....focus on learning Who you are.) Bill W. (founder of A.A.,) was totally into Eastern Spirituality and though he cloaked the A.A. program in a loose Christian bag it is strongly underpinned with Eastern philosophy. He had to package it so people in the 30's could grasp it. It is not religious but I guess you can make anything religious if you want. Here's another good saying," Take what you like and leave the rest." Meaning the programs aren't black and white...not everyone will say something you agree with but I guarantee if you go to few meetings you'll hear exactly what you need to hear. Tao flows very smoothly through the meetings and conversations with others trying to do what you are doing. Thanks Manitao for your informative post and congrats on all those years. We are very fortunate to have you here!

I like sunflowers and rain. I like coffee in the morning. I listen to the fan in my room. I don't understand much on this web site as it is over my head but I like to try and get some of it. I love my family and I love me and the whole world is everything and nothing. My name is 'me not Me.'