Unconditioned

To me there is litterally no division. How can you have one without the other? You can't. What we experience from the outside completely affects our thoughts and body. Everything we think completely affects our actions. And the circle goes round and round.

She's simply found a way to justify her actions. She feels ok about it because she doesn't judge herself based on looks, which is fine. But, she's most likely ignoring the affects this will have on her body. She may not care at all. So where's the problem? Edit: I've only watched a few minutes of the clip. But there are obviously health problems and psychological problems here. However, on another level, it is what it is.

Wow, that's one of the clearest explainations I've ever read, thank you!

Great point again: discovering what's there or making models that work well enough for human minds? I'm all set with debating that one too... take care!

Scotty beat me to the punchline! Avoiding a situation doesn't make it go away. My family is all over the country and while it's not as "in my face" as it was growing up at home, the problems and personalities are still there. I've run into a lot of negativity with my wife and have tried a lot of approaches. Relationships are very complex but having an open perspective may help. Why are they negative? Bad day at work? Stressed out over money? Also, your attitude, presense, and awareness of the situation are all major factors a relationship. Are you aware that your big smile in a room full of people that are upset could make them more upset (even if you are having a good day and they're not)? What's the root of YOUR frustration? Edit: And why the need to practice in a cave (i.e., get away from everyone)? You can practice right now from this line of text, do you feel defensive?

Great reminder Personal experience time: I've found I need to take breaks from the books, discussions, forums, etc. from time to time and come back to them otherwise I do have noticable mental fatigue. I've also noticed, personally, that the constant churning of spiritual ideas just makes my mind race more when I'm around it too much and I honestly just can't think as clearly.

Go for it, same result It's like saying the heat created the fire or the fire created the heat.

Why believe anyone at all? Does the Dali Lama hold more authority than you, me, or anyone else? In one sense, sure he's experienced and has knowledge. But in the other sense, he's human, just like we are. About things 'pointing' to reality... yes, we label our experiences of our senses, completely agree... but what are those experiences? I experience this chair as solid matter holding me up but we've discovered that most matter is in fact space. Matter manifests itself through our perception and through our awareness of perception. I think the simple answer is: we cannot know what is outside of our own personal consciousness/experience one way or the other, we can only suggest a model for what we perceive. So do you mean we need these for communication, survival, etc.? I can see that. There is 'stuff' here which is not separate from the 'not-stuff' (transient 'things' such as awareness).

I've been living my spiritual life for probably the last 3-4 years. I've accumlated a lot of knowledge, some insights, some powerful experiences, had moments of extreme clarity, etc. but at the end of the day here I am. My collection of memories, samskaras, karma, whatever term you'd like to use... is still here. It's still thinking it's thoughts, feeling it's feelings, identifying with a stream of conciousness and being a 'self'. Even with the knowledge and experience, I still find myself searching for some even deeper still answer and experience. I feel as though I've either hit a huge wall, or that there's a subtle waiting for something to happen/change. I know I haven't settled on any conclusions, I don't hold any absolute views of anything, but I feel as though something is missing. Some... thing... that keeps fueling the ego. I feel like I've regressed somehow, and I'm back to where I was before I even started but with a few more trinkets in my pocket. Anyone else been here or is there? Any thoughts on is this a plateau, part of a usual progression, etc.?

Great point! I know the "I" is just made up, an assumption, a belief, that all this 'stuff' that is experienced is 'me'. But, identification with that or not, that's a different story. Then Excellent quotes, very good reminders. Yes, yes, and yes. I got stuck on "how do I get rid of the ego?" for a while then realized awake or asleep, we still all have a personality, it's just do we see it for what it is or think that we are ONLY the personality.

Bravo Everything is a result of everything. Topic at hand... enlightenment, personally I cannot stand that word. It carries SO much weight/conditioning, expectation, implied authority, etc. with it. No offence intended but I think there are better questions. It boils down to: Is this concept real. Yes - in that it's a concept that exists as a result of thought. No - in that it's just a concept and is nothing more or less. Lastly, for anyone that has figured out who they really are/n't, they will bloom in their own way. Just like we wouldn't expect all flowers to bloom as a rose, why would we expect that same from the billions of manifested forms/types of people? So we will see different expressions of awakening. And yes, this post is littered with contradictions but hey it's the best I can do with the tools I have between these ears

I've read most of his books, they force you to stop and really work to understand what he's saying... at least they did for me when I read them last. His books were my first introduction to 'spirituallity' and it's been a wild ride ever since. That said, I don't think his writing style is for everyone. Sometimes his thoughts are very abstract and can be misunderstood or lead to frustration. But, if you stick with them that one-liner that didn't make any sense 3 months ago will out of no where 'click' and you'll probably find youself smiling One of my favorite authors, hope you enjoy it as much as I have!

And they seem to have struck a nerve...

We'll eat, sleep, work, laugh, smile, face challenges, feel pain (but not suffer), we'll not avoid anything in our lives, we'll face everything head on as it is, we'll live, we'll love, we'll eventually shed this skin and after that, the unknown.

I had an idea a few years ago to setup a gambling site where you could be on when the world will end. The winner gets all the money! And since the world would've ended by then, I'd just spend all the bets on paying off my bills Really though, the 2012 thing, if it does happen will most likely be a self fulfilled prophecy.

Yes I believe this is where I was going to some degree. Personally I've fallen into the trap of TRYING to get rid of the ego, TRYING to stop thoughts, etc. which has just strengthened them. But by letting things be as they are (cliche I know but it's true) and letting the calm awareness 'arise' then we're not caught up in thoughts/distractions and we can be aware of our participation in everything and everything's participation in us, which can expose to use our non-duel nature. I understand what you're saying, looking without projecting, but I'm still not convinced that this is possible. I look at it and say "this is a living thing" or even say nothing at all but just feel it's presence... but even those ideas are products of my past experience.. even the feeling of oneness is relative to my past and will leave an imprint. The current experience of being present with the rose is being taken in by my being and influencing me at that moment. I cannot be separate from material and the material cannot be separate from me, which is the fragments of my past. So, that said, if we see the completeness of how experience influences and we influence the experience, isn't that truth? Doesn't that 'dissolve' the divisions? Doesn't that unify the experience and experiencer into One no-separate-thing? Just thinking outloud again here... thank you for the replies -O- and Marblehead.

So, I'll throw in a perspective on this one. There's a lot of mention of experience as part of the ego and awareness of perception. If we don't recognize the experience does that mean we've experienced it? When I have an experience how do I recognize it as such? What is my frame of reference to say "I had ______ experience"? Can we recognize an experience without adding or taking away from it? I mean is it possible to experience something and exclude our bias? Or, if we recognize our bias (conditioning), is that a "true" experience? Obviously once we start to talk about the experience we're back into the ego coloring it based on the past but while we're experiencing right this moment is it at all possible to do so while removing our conditioning? Or, what if we let our conditioning be and recognize it as such. Is inclusion just the same as exclusion? Hmm... so if I surrender to the limits of the ego, does that dissolve the ego or strengthen it? Just a few questions/thoughts... i hope I'm not too off topic.

A friend of mine, a Taoist, suggested checking out the Barefoot Doctor books/site however I'm a little skeptical based on some reports I've read online about inappropriate correspondence with female practitioners. That said, his books may be very helpful/valid regardless of the personal rumors. Has anyone read some of his books or checked out his website? Trying to get a second opinion before potentially wasting my time... Thanks! -Nate

Apep, do you feel any better now that you've cut out coffee? I was just thinking about quitting today and I'm curious about affects of not taking caffeine daily... This morning I was EXTREMELY irritable .. had my coffee and life was back to normal.. that scared me a bit honestly.. I don't want to be dependent on a cup of joe for my well being.

Why? "You have to _______" ... why? Why would you try to push away desire just because someone else said it is the way (even someone as important as Buddha)? That's just replacing one thing for another (sensual desire for spiritual desire). To follow blindly is to be blind. To understand why, and see that for yourself, is a very different story. Sexual desire is human, period. To deny this is to run away from reality. There may be esoteric reasons for denying lust such as energy work or whatnot but that is different than self-realization (in my opinion). To attack desire is attacking a symptom. Why waste time on the symptoms, go to the root, cut off your egoic head and desire will take it's natural course. Here's an excerpt from the platform sutra that I couldn't agree with more (http://web.mit.edu/stclair/www/platform.html):

How do we know he'd been meditating in prior lives? I haven't read the platform sutra in some time but I don't recall Hui Neng mentioning it. His whole sutra was about sudden enlightenment as opposed to gradual. I would argue that the idea of previous lives can only be verified individually, if that's even possible (some claim they know their previous identities but you have to have faith in what they say, there's no proof unless you experience it directly). So it sounds like a big assumption that the sudden enlightenment described in the platform sutra was infact gradual. But in general, we can only speculate on whether or not a specific condition is necessary for us individually. We all are products of varied conditions (albeit completely connected/affected by everything else). So, is meditation needed for self realization? It's likely possible for the answer to be "yes" for some and "no" for others. I practice meditation so I can say for sure I wouldn't be where I am spiritually without it. I can only guess what spiritual state I'd be in if I didn't meditate.

Sidenote: If you read a lot of the replies, they are riddled with bias and defensiveness... even the calm answers. Careful not to deceive ourselves Facts to support the opinion... shouldn't it be the other way around?

Self Realization... basically, what is all this "stuff"? These feelings, thoughts, how do they come about? Who controls them? Is there anyone controlling them? Is it possible to live a life that is conditioned but to see it from an unconditioned viewpoint? How is it possible for me to move my body (who does it)? Do all these questions matter at all or should I just live for the sake of living? What the heck am "I" anyway? The usual stuff... so much curiosity... it's insatiable.