Unconditioned

Ah, great point. Both the object of knowledge and the object of feeling are one in the same though. To push one away or to favor one over the other creates a division, duality. Both are of the whole. So, if you have an idea that you know you're one with everything that is very different than just being aware of it (and aware of the idea). Likewise, if you have a feeling/sensation that you're one with everything that is also very different than being aware of it (and of the feeling). They're both the same - images burned in our memory the second they manifest, already in the past by the time we realize it. But if we're aware, then we expose heart and mind both for what they are and can experience truth... at least that's the ideas spewing from the mind of this conditioned one =) He didn't believe in anything. He was part of everything and still is, we're still talking about him right now! A higher power implies separation (Self and other) but in reality there is no difference it is only our minds that discriminate between the two. Put an easier way, there can be nothing added or taken away from "everything". If you try to take away from "everything" then you don't have everything anymore do you? Same for adding to it. When someone sees they no longer need to believe. I'd have to check references but I don't think the word 'believe' is mentioned anywhere in the TTC.

Unconditioned agrees (I like that 3rd person thing ) that the idea of enlightenment is not enlightenment. Growth occurs constantly. It's the dancing Shiva, if you will, of the universe. It's also my impression of why a circle is used in may traditions symbolically of a shape that has no beginning or end. The only thing that I contest is that there is no accumulating or eliminating of knowledge in any dimension (aka no learning or unlearning just being aware of what is there). On a superficial level sure, we are storing images in our memory and accumulating experiences/knowledge but if you look deeply you'll find that we're not adding or taking away anything with our knowledge we're just flowing down the river of time/accumulation. Once we sit on the shore we can watch what all that is - the short version, once you see the whole there is nothing to add or take away. So, this conditioned being thinks that enlightenment is simply realizing what life/reality really is at it's core and being THAT without conflict/division. And the unwalked path to get there only has one traveler, you. We're all very good at describing what's on the menu but I think I hear a lot of grumbling tummies =)

Ditto! Both have been very helpful. In addition, Wu Wei Wu Wei Wu Wei and Sri Paramhamsa Nithyananda. Edit: It's Wei Wu Wei (Action Non Action). As an aside, his writing style is a bit difficult at first but whether intentional or not caused me to really think, almost line by line, and really examine what he was trying to convey. I found that practice alone worth reading his works.

Clothes cover the naked body. But they do not change it. Some wear red, blue, or purple But they do not change the body beneath. Some argue that one color is better than another But that does not change the body beneath. Some inquire into what the clothing is made of, where it came from, where it should go But that does not change the body beneath. Some inquire as to what is behind the clothing Some find out some do not. But what is underneath still remains.

My Fiance has an affinity for cartoons, especially this one. She 'made' me sit down and watch the final movie/episode and I was very surprised as some of the things going on... you can definitely see where some of the ideas came from... and it's entertaining (haven't watched it since that one time but I wouldn't be opposed to it). Just my 2c not-really-substance contribution

Concepts upon concepts upon concepts. A gust of insight will blow the house of cards down. There is nothing wrong with paying your time and effort for a master's help. But, as J.Krishnamurti puts it so well, we can't satisfy our hunger by reading the menu, talking about how if you put this and that together it will taste wonderful and it will nurish you, etc. We need to actually eat to cure the hunger. One can prepare your food for you or you can prepare it yourself. I do not for one second believe that someone MUST pay for freedom with money however I do think it's an option. Just remember though, someone who has already eaten and describes the sensation of feeling full cannot take away your hunger for you, you have to eat for yourself and digest for yourself otherwise you will die with all the knowledge of the menu but with an empty belly.

Here's my take, similar but maybe a little different. I think the key here is understanding where the 'I' comes from. What is the cause, the root cause, of us thinking we are "I"? Rather than using objects such as "I am ____ " or "I am not _____", searching for the source, the cause, of I results in not creating more ideas/concepts/objects for us to later have to unravel. I think he is giving us a technique that does not later have to be 'undone' (for lack of a better word).

Bingo - words cannot represent a thing in and of itself, just a concept... and concepts are subject to our experience, our conditioning. They can however point us in a direction that can allow us to inquire and realize the meaning behind the words... at least I think so... don't take my word for it

All I can say to this is, thank you Regardless of path, these words speak truth that cuts to the root.

I'll admit that I've had some, what I would call profound, insights while under the influence of marijuana. I also have vivid memories from when I had taken mushrooms where I saw things very clearly (the clarity vanished with the effects, but their meaning has become clearer as I've 'moved down the path'). For example, I can clearly remember visualizing myself at my desk at work taking things very seriously and I was looking down at myself and I was literally laughing hysterically at how serious I took my job for being 'real'. But all that aside, while those experiences have helped me to see things differently I still take them for what they are - conditioning. Conditioning is not reality, it is only a colored, fragmented interpretation. But, when we see something for what it really is, then we see it truly rather than getting caught up in it. When we're no longer expending energy into that interpretation we can be free. So, in conclusion, once we see drugs for what they really are, once we see the reason why we take them, then whether we decide to take them or not is a trivial decision in the grand scheme of things ...in my conditioned opinion

I have nowhere to go, nothing to accumulate... just to tear down illusion, to stay centered in the present moment not worrying about the future or contemplating the past. In short - to be the subject without labeling it as an object thus liberating my being from the relentless labeling of the mind, freeing my being from living in a world of interpretations and allowing it to be free to BE. I have no better way of describing this. So with all due respect, your negative words don't affect me nor should anyones. At the end of the day, we walk this path alone and must figure out life on our own otherwise we are just parrots repeating but not being aware. YM, as a musician should I imitate every other guitarist before attempting to let my inner self manifest through music? That seems like an awful waste of time when I can let go right now and create at this very moment. Perhaps the core of this discussion is 'suddon' vs. 'gradual' ... I don't know. Anyhow, thank you for the replies. All the best, Nate Edit: YM, I think to some degree I understand your artist analogy. I've been a musician since the age of 5 and when I play I am not thinking of technique, where my fingers are where they'll go next, I am just playing. Perhaps it took the years of practice to get there. I've had no formal teacher, just my ear and persistence, things that I've been given at birth. Every 'discovery' musically has had a very deep meaning to me. I do not know if it would be the same if I were told about the things I discovered on my own from a teacher. Perhaps I'm deluding myself thinking this is a better way and wasting time by not having a teacher, who knows? But to use an over used phrase, we must be careful not to confuse the map for the territory. Many maps, only one territory. To each our own, thank you for the replies.

Interesting point... but I'm not sure I understand. If I am already poor why do I need to gain wealth just to drop it? Is it the experience of letting go that is important? If we're already close to our destination do we need to run far from it then back to it? As we have insightful moments, don't we shed layers of our conditioning eventually leaving us completely bare? I'm asking not to provoke but because I do not understand, thank you

This is GREAT. Thank you!

Couldn't agree more

Who is the fool - the one that pays expecting salvation or the one that offers it at a price? Wisdom is free to anyone if we look for it ourselves. Does it cost money to question who/what we are? Do you charge yourself to question from where your thoughts arise? Do you have to pay a tax to wonder who/what is observing every thought and action? Let the producers and consumers do as they please. There are more important tasks to explore

Interesting, I have one question though and it applies to any and all systems, techniques, etc. buddhist, christian, taoist, doesn't matter: if the Tao is unknowable, untouchable, unable to be experienced by any sense including mind, how then can one grasp to a system and claim to know Tao? To know the Tao, the way of nature itself, one has to let go of all things, including systems, lineage, their masters, beliefs, rituals, thoughts, no? Once we fix our awareness on any thought past or future we are seeing a creation of the mind based on our perceptions. Every method must be dropped. Every perception must be dropped for true clarity to be experienced. Then how does a system with so many nuances, special techniques, etc. help us? That too must be dropped. I prefer to find my own food, chew on it, and digest it rather than someone chewing it for me, putting it in my mouth, and helping it down to my stomach. Just my two cents.

I toss this one around a bit personally but try to add in that enlightenment is just a concept. Like all concepts, the idea of enlightenment needs to be 'taken off' too. I believe that the statement is true, however, it is very easy to confuse realization with understanding a concept. One is experiential and real, the other is just a label. It's like looking at the packaging of food, talking about how great it is, how wonderful it looks, the texture, the color, how to cook it, best times to serve it, the right manners to use when eating, etc. but all the while having never eaten the food itself.

The one who speaks does not know; the one who knows does not speak. You likely won't find someone who is realized claiming as such here... an enlightened person does not need to add titles or labels to their being. Edit: I think I was partly mistaken As xuesheng said, we are all the Tao. Beliefs are outside of the Tao. Beliefs are nothing but an opinion based on extremely limited or inaccurate information; or based on faith/trust in another person's beliefs. At some point all beliefs need to be dropped in order to realize what the Tao is and to realize that they are just the Tao and there is nothing else. All things added to what is real must be removed in order to reveal what is real/true. We cannot find truth by adding things to our being. If we remove all the added things, beliefs, opinions, judgments, assumptions, etc. the only thing left will be the Truth. So nothing is 'molded'. We do not change ourselves to become one with the Tao. The Tao is ever present, we are in the Tao right now only we have such a warped view on reality that we aren't aware of it. It's like someone who is looking for their glasses when they are already wearing them. Did the glasses get added to the person? Did the person get added to the glasses? No, it's all been there all along, the person just wasn't aware of it.

Here is a link to numerous meditiation techniques explained in detail (the technique, how it works on you, etc.). There are so many different techniques because there are so many different kinds of people. If you find one that really 'feels right' then stick with it. If you try something for a week or so and it's not showing much results, then my suggestion is to move on. Here is the link: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=C382D1CE98AEFF4C These are yoga meditations created mostly from the "Yoga Sutras" which I believe are the sutras written by Patangali. Good luck! -Nate

Spirit Ape, I absolutely respect them for their devotion and willingness to share their path with us however I had posted my original response not in judgment but out of not understanding their path given what I currently know about Taoism, life, reality, etc. Unless we question we will only be digesting another person's opinion. To make it our own, we should understand what it is first rather than blindly excepting what someone says as truth. I don't think anyone is giving them a hard time, just expressing their opinions much like you are free to react to their opinion they are free to share their thoughts. Whether or not it affects us is a personal choice. All the best, -Nate

I respectfully disagree with your interpretation. "It is the forefather of the gods" means that it comes BEFORE the idea of gods or even the existence of God/gods. This is where dogma, tradition, and religion in general can get us into trouble - interpretation of symbols. We color them with our own backgrounds. What this passage means is: The Tao is not some 'thing'. It is completely empty. However, it is the SOURCE of everything that is not the Tao, the material objects, thoughts, perception, etc. (i.e., "ten thousand things"). It is hidden deep only because we have buried the Tao with all our ignorance. We have buried it with all of our conditioning, false assumptions of what life and reality are. It is the source from where our ideas of God come from and if they do exist, even the 'physical' aspect of a God is from the purest source, the Tao. Can people choose to add religion to the Tao? Sure! But that is religion, that is not the Tao nor is it Taoism. It is the tradition and religion of Taoism, not Taoism itself. Taoism is a way of life, it's living without conditioning, it's living enlightenment in the most pure way, in complete harmony with the nature of nature. Hope this helps, -Nate

Strip away perceptions, labels, ideology, rules, systems devised, concepts of debt, etc. and what is left? If we treat the problem the symptoms will also go away. If we treat the symptoms the problem does not go away. There is nothing to obtain, no freedom, no enlightenment, these are all concepts. They are just a means to an end. We throw the match into the fire after we've ignited everything, we no longer need a raft to get to the other shore once we're there, etc. So, in 'repaying karma debt', if that is our focus - that activity itself creates more karma. If our focus is one of removing what is false, one layer at a time, then when only the essence is left we are neither liberated or not liberated but we are what we truly are - and that cannot have a label, it cannot be expressed, it can only be experienced. To me, this is good news. It is by no means easy and requires vigilance to constantly remove what is false but it will change us in such a way that we will be purity itself. When this happens, to others it will appear that we're working very hard and doing many things. From our own perspective, once we've attained, there is nothing but bliss, awareness, effortlessness. So my whole point is that it's not a difficult task, it just takes a little effort to get the ball rolling then nature takes over. Well, that's the way 'I' see it today anyway

Mak Tin Si, First, please I ask that you don't read into my questions, I mean no disrespect but am asking because I just don't understand. I have read a few of your posts this morning and you seem to put a lot of emphasis on lineage and ethics within Taoism. I see the practical side of this for society to function, for others to know where we're coming from easily, etc. However, if one focuses on internal cultivation (strengthening awareness, removing false associations (samskaras), observation, etc.) wouldn't the proper ethics be a natural result? What does the material color of my clothes have to do with my ability and focus to realize Truth? For example, if one realizes what they truly are then they will naturally begin to show respect to others. They will radiate pure love, not emotional love. Out of respect, they will show up when they say they will. Also, how do we account for things that are out of our control when it comes to ethics? For example, if I tell someone that I will see them at 3pm and my car breaks down. I have always struggled with tradition and a set code of ethics because personally I feel constricted. If I do not live by a set code of ethics, I am free to learn from my mistakes. I am free to understand what my actions do to another and to myself. So, what is the root of ethics in Taoism? What purpose does it serve? It all needs to be let go and removed from our being so that we can shine in our purest form, so why force the addition of another layer to later be removed?

Sounds like a good read, reminds me of "The Tao of Physics" a bit (another good book but a little dated at this point).

I'm also interested but don't have the $$ right now (layoffs are going on majorly at my job, need all the $$ I can to save!). Let me know how it is!