Unconditioned

Thank you all for the very constructive posts. I've incorporated some of the techniques/suggestions in the last few days and I've had good results very quickly! So I thought maybe what I've done could help other people as well. Here they are: - Start doing housework right when I get home from work before sitting down. My goal is 15 minutes a day... once I've started I've been doing about 45-60 minutes (when I saw how nice my place looked I wanted to keep going for a bit!). - I've tried to be more encouraging in my relationships simply by listening intently and trying to make other people smile. This has increased my overall wellbeing and makes me want to spend more time with other people than I have (which is not often). - I've taken a 'game of inches' attitude at work. Every task / project I'm working on I've framed it as an opportunity to do things better, different, with more enthusiasm, etc. - I've tried to 'clear' those things that I just don't want to deal with one or two at a time (ex. getting the car fixed, dealing with bills, etc.). By doing things gradually it hasn't been as daunting to think about. Once the inertia shifted from laziness to dilligence it has become much easier to get things done without being lazy and without being overwhelmed. I enjoy my downtime but I enjoy my 'uptime' just as much. Thank you all very much!

Wow, that was the FIRST introduction to Taoism myself (the exact 365 Tao book you have)! There is a method that works for some that is tied to devotion which I tend to associate with dogmatic practices like Buddhism. For some, it can be easy to get caught in the semantics with those paths. I studied Buddhism for a couple of years and there is some great wisdom to be found there but I had a hard time with the dogma as well. Taoism can be said to have dogma as well depending on where you look. Symbols are used to convey abstract ideas unfortunately they can be misinterpreted. That said, when one realizes the Truth and tries to express it, they use their language and culture to try to communicate such that another may find the same Truth. Over time, the interpretation of Truth gets taken for Truth itself which is in error. So where does that leave us? Find the path that resonates with you and stick with it. At the essence of spiritual practice lies the same Truth. Whether you use Buddhism, Christianity, Taoism, or whatever the important thing is to find one that feels right, that you can understand the essence of.

Very good questions. Ill need to contemplate a bit more before I'm able to give a well thought answer. My immediate reaction is that we are getting caught up in the words. Maybe we can use 'self' vs. 'Self' to help instead of "I"? My initial thought is that the source/force of both is the same. I don't think they are different only in their aspects of one another. Meaning, the self is manifest from the Self. The possibility of thought is only available because of life itself. The possibility of breathing is available because of life itself. So whether or not we're thinking about it, breathing happens. But how? That's the question I have... not sure if there's even an answer or a reason to persue it outside of curiosity..

Well said! You can't live in the now moment if you are caught up in the past or the future. We compare what's going on now with the past and we fantasize about where we are now compared to the future. All the while missing out on the obvious notion that we are alive, we are here, we are conscious! To cultivate awareness, our effort and energy should be directed at the timeless ever-present 'now'. While doing so, asking the question "WHO is experiencing all of this stuff??". I've found Sri Ramana Maharishi's "Who am I?" method to be extremely effective when we ask ourselves with sincerity and intensity that one simple question.

Metzu, Thank you for the refreshing posts. I agree that it is easy to get distracted by 'shiny objects' (aka the entertainment) but for some they may find that it is empty, that something is missing. Everyone has their own progression. It's also very inspiring to hear about picking yourself back up from your 'old life'. Hope to hear from you more on this forum, welcome! Your remarks about the natural way reminds me of a story that I can't recall the source right now (paraphrasing)... An elderly master was working in the hot sun when a student asked him, "Why do you work in this hot sun?". He replied "Because it is there". The student then asked him, "Why don't you go sit in the shade?". He replied, "Because I am here". -Nate

I won't claim to know you or anyone else for that matter, but I do think that it's somewhat disrespectful to smear others on the forum publically. If there is an argument between you and whoever that doesn't need to be public knowledge. About your judgment call on someone else being angry or not, see them for who they are: someone seeking the same Truth as you. If they're angry, let it be, don't take it personally There's a deeper lesson here about dropping all judgments and just letting things be. Here's an exercise. Try it for a week and you'll see where it leads: anything that happens to you, near you, around you, try not to judge it. Just observe it. When the judgement thoughts pop-up a method I've used is just to mentally note "this is what it does" and move on rater than grasping. This has saved me from embarrassing myself and saved a few relationships along the way. Please don't take the post personally, I'm not trying to attack you or tell you what to do. Advice is there for the taking or leaving, up to you! All the best.

True - I guess I have some built-up aversion to "sharing your faith" from my Christian days (was basically part of a Christian 'cult' that was hellbent on recruiting). I see the value and speed that it can have. It worked for Christianity to some degree but that might be a good case study to see where things could end up. But, I also think that it could become watered down. For example Western Yoga focuses on the physical aspects/benefits of Yoga but leaves behind a lot of the spiritual benefits/goals (at least that's how it is here in New England).

Exactly Once the focus is on Being/doing rather than objects we can experience the pure void. The void is not the opposite of the material. It is the source of the material. You can't separate the light from the flame. Nor can you separate the material from the non-material. The void is the source of both. Every time we try to describe it we cannot do it justice since it can't be an object. Tough little bugger that one can be! I prefer to say that neither Oneness nor Illusion are real. This points to a purely void source.... a stripping away of everything until it is completely pure, unconditioned, Tao/God/Spirit/etc. To say that everything is real is no different than to say everything is unreal except that one points to a removing of illusion while the other is saying adding reality - aka, the same thing Phew, I hope that wasn't too confusing... I may have broken a fuse on this post...

The purity and innocence that are in these words are far from delusion. Where these came from, there is no delusion - just purity, honesty, and beauty. This made me warm this morning, thank you

I agree that you could say that they are both real however that isn't the whole story! The IDEA of oneness or multiplicity or any +/- comparison are all ideas - like you've stated about silly words. But, that both ideas are in-fact real is just another idea, ad infinitum. How do you get out of this loop? Go behind ideas themselves, shift from objects of the mind to subjectivity (activity) of the mind. What is our thought process? Where do these ideas come from?

My personal opinion is, to advertize by example. You won't even need to bring up anything about your practice. It should be obvious to other people at some point that you're different, they'll see that in you. They'll see that strength and dept that comes from wisdom/awareness and they'll be drawn to you over time... and some people will notice the change (the people closest to you) and it will spark the same in them.

Yes - in different states (sleep, meditation, getting knocked out ) The idea of the self is replaced with the True Self. No 'object' would be aware... only awareness of awareness, i.e. subjectivity itself. This comment made me think quite a bit..it's just doing what it's doing I guess. Meaning, we're aware of our senses/perceptions and give our awareness in conjunction with those thoughts/senses the label 'I'. The misidentification comes when we think that we are just those sense impressions... the revelation is when we experience and understand we are the awareness behind them. In my typical writing style I'm just spewing thoughts into my post

After rereading 23, I thought I understood a bit about where / when the 'I' thought emerges but I may have been fooling myself. In meditation I can lose the 'I' thought. When sleeping it's not there. But at JUST the moment I wake up in the morning it's there with me. It seems obvious to me that when we are in a waking state the I follows... but that does not explain how it 'goes' during meditation. I understand conceptually that there can be no 'I' entity - just a collection of senses and memories. I've experienced it through meditation but I cannot understand at what moment or condition does this assumption / thought arise or how to control it outside of meditation except for a few rare occasions were I've just felt that 'I am awareness' and dropped thoughts altogether. So, my question is: when does the 'I' thought really emerge? If there were a way to stop that thought before it happened I can only assume this would keep awareness intact, inside, etc. and that we would just be alive and unconditioned in the deepest sense of the word...

Excellent. I can't add or take anything away from your explanation. Everything is as it is. Thank you for taking the time to share this with us, very insightful.

Quite true - sometimes I tend to over think! Thanks Daoian and Steve for the helpful reminders. There are also examples of effects happening before their causes in particle physics (The Tao of Physics is a great book although a little dated). Time is the basis for cause and effect. Time is dependent on perception and memory - remove those and time, cause, and effect cease. All that is left is what is, was, and will always be... but don't quote me on that, I've been wrong before and I'm sure I will be again!

Cause and effect... if only I had more time! I'll try to keep this short for now and maybe will have time tonight to write more. I think there are different 'levels' of cause and effect. I'll start at the gross level and go deeper. In general every event has a preceding set of events/conditions. So every effect has a preceding cause. The heat from the sun, mixed with the moisture in the air, mixed with the nutrients in the soil creates the conditions that cause a tree to 'breathe', etc. On a more subtle level, our minds operate the same way. Every thought has a preceding thought that causes the next thought. On an even more subtle level, all manifestations have the single cause behind them, the Tao. From the Tao, all things emerge. It is the supreme cause of all effects. It is the root cause, the 'thing' that sets all things in motion , eternally/infinitely (it is outside of time and linear sequence as those are functions of the mind and memory). So are events random. The answer in my opinion is yes and no depending . On the gross level it seems as though we have a choice so things are not random. At the mind level we think conscious thoughts so again, not random - our ego determines what we're thinking. If you go deeper though, what is our ego? what is our will? It is a function of consciousness. Is our consciousness random? What is the root of consciousness? Awareness. Is awareness random? No. Awareness is choiceless, it is pure, uninfluenced, the source of consciousness / mind. The long and short is: at the lowest level, all things are a result of one source, the Tao. This source acts as it does without influence. Therefore it is not random. We THINK that we have a will of our own but we don't! It is a function of conditions (just like the plant). Everything we think, the persona we maintain is a function of conditioning. It is not random nor is it not random - it is just as it is, causes and effects.

Exactly! I was trying to say something similar but you put it much better Mal, thanks for the explanation about different 'levels' of awareness. I also think you hit the nail on the head about what he was trying to get at. We're still 'here' even without the mind grasping at the first, and biggest, illusory thought, that we are our thoughts.. our memories, our minds. If we uproot this false belief Truth is revealed. But I suspect you know that already as well as some of the others in this thread

It took me a while to understand the deep sleep part of this as well. I think he is saying that during deep sleep there is no I. It emerges as we wake up.

It took me a while to understand the deep sleep part of this as well. I think he is saying that during deep sleep there is no I. It emerges as we wake up.

I wish I had the statistical info on what % of our perceptions we keep in our memory. I believe it's less than 10%. We base our opinions and views on a minority of what actually happens... the rest we construct with our minds/imagination. Based on that alone, how can we trust our beliefs as Truth? How can we construct a True reality based on a blurred view? What are the roots that hold us to think that our beliefs are True? Fear: of being wrong, of rejection, of looking bad, of losing integrity, of losing respect... of loss in general. Ignorance: of mixing beliefs, of believing 'facts', of another's wisdom... prejudice in general. Now, throw away everything I've said and ask yourself: what is the worst that can happen if I drop my long-held beliefs and accept that maybe I'm wrong? That's what I'm going to do

Haha no worries That's why I hate words sometimes... they're always open to personal interpretation! Looking forward to more info, take care.

Ah I see what your definition is now. I would call that a deep form of ignorance. From ignorance in consciousness, arise the ego, then ignorant actions manifest, they become habits, they become a method of trying to achieve some form of happiness through pleasure. Ignorance is that a person is not yet conscious of what they really are (i.e, their true Self) I believe that the 'light' is the Tao working in you as you deepen your practice. It isn't something that is forced or requires dicipline or sacrifice. It is a natural process. As you become more aware of what life is, what is real and what is not, of your body and your mind, of your relationship with physical/non-physical, etc. the light works in you. It takes no effort except for the effort of being still, calming thoughts, so that it can reveal its nature that is always present and always active. As far as entities and predators, I've yet to encounter them so I can only say that I think of those to be more mental afflictions than anything else. Everything that we sense with our perceptions is an interpretation of the mind. If we can strengthen the awareness of our mind we'll see the nature of all things - including entities. With love and respect.

Yes - I should've been more explict in my post. The Tao is always active! From nothing comes something. From formless manifests form. The force of darkness is THE force that sets everything into motion. If you're referring more to a 'dark art' then I can't help you there as that has nothing to do with my Taoist practice.

Thank you for the explaination! I'll just say this: perhaps show a little more respect for the other members of the forum. We're all ignorant to some degree and no need to single out 'even the women'. There are some on here that we can all learn a thing or two from.